I can pwn Bliss (PorygonZ Discussion)

[Stallion]

For a long time this pokemon has intrigued me, having a base 135 Sp. A, Scheme and an ability that allows Hyper Beam to be a special type explosion of sorts, without the killing yourself part. Lets see its usable movepool.

Traits:

Adaptive: If PorygonZ uses the move the same type as it, the moves power is increased.

Download: Depending on foes strongest stat, PorygonZ raises itself in that stat.

Both are pretty cool but id say that Adaptive is the better of the two traits.

Physical Movepool:
Return (can potentially 2HKO Bliss)

Special Movepool:

Signal Beam
Discharge
Tri Attack
Hyper Beam (awesome on this poke)
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Charge Beam
Dark Pulse

Pretty good special movepool if you ask me...

Support Movepool

Scheme (awesome!)
Trick Room
Conversion (can be used with Adaptive)
Conversion2
Agility
Recover
Electrolevitate
Magic Coat
Thunder Wave
Substitute

Again pretty massive.

Movesets:

PorygonZ@Leftovers/Life Orb
Trait: Adaptive
Modest Nature
EV's: 4 HP/252 Sp. A/252 Spd

Scheme
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Hyper Beam

Pretty simple. Scheme on the inevitable Bliss switch in. An Adaptive, Schemed Hyper Beam off a Modest Max Sp. A PorygonZ versus a Max Hp, No Sp. D Bliss can actually OHKO it, possible without Stealth Rock and guaranteed with it. Thats pretty bloody amazing that a special attacker can actually beat Bliss, something that had previously never been heard.

PorygonZ@AGlasses
Trait: Adaptive
Modest Nature
EV's: 4 HP/252 Sp. A/252 Spd

Thunderbolt/Dark Pulse
Ice Beam/Dark Pulse
Tri Attack
Hyper Beam

I personally prefer the Schemer, but played right this can also do a lot of damage. Mix and match 4 special attacks to suit your needs, although Hyper Beam should be used as it is insanely powerful, as should Tri Attack, which although isnt as powerful is more consistent.

PorygonZ@Leftovers/Life Orb

Trait: Adaptive
Modest Nature
EV's: 4 HP/252 Sp. A/252 Spd

Conversion
Ice Beam/Dark Pulse
Thunderbolt
Tri Attack/Hyper Beam

This moveset is purely novelty, but can work and is extremely fun to use. First up you use Conversion, which allows you to change your type to the same type as one of your moves. Now lets just say you picked Ice Beam for example. Not only do you receive STAB on it, but Adaptive also kicks in, allowing for a suprising but deadly attack.

Note: For those of you who don't like Hyper Beam's recharge, Tri Attack can be used in its place in any of the sets.

Anyway discuss this digital destroyer.

 

[e4protector]

This is absolutely lethal. I was always thinking of Download being used by bringing it in on Alakazam or another SAtk abuser and downloading a special attack boost. Either that or bring it in on Jolty and take a speed boost but Adaptive scares the fuck out of me now that I know how it works...150 double-STABed is like Kyogre's Water Spout at full health.

A special attack that can OHKO Blissey...absolutely unheard of. 6 CM'd Gardevoir can't do that with its Psychic and this Psychic will OHKO anything else...

PorygonZ will force Blissey to have SDef EVs. Imagine something like a jask pass or jolt pass with this. After it schemes it can OHKO anything...

 

[yawn]

I'm still quite loyal to Porygon2, but Z does turn a slower, tankish thing into a faster sweeper thing. The downside to Hyperbeam sets is that it's rather predictable, with only 85/70/75 stats and no EV investments, if Gengar/Clops comes in on hyper beam and focus punches then it's basically dead.

From using Porygon2, I can say that Conversion is extremely risky because the type is picked at random, granted you'll get a 2.25 boost from Adaptive + STAB but the boost might not be the one you want and may actually give you an unwanted weakness (ex: turning into ice instead of electric against most steels), although better than even crappier Conversion2.

Note that Download only boosts ATK and SPATK depending on whether you opponent's DEF or SPDEF is higher.

I like the regular brute force set:
Adaptive w/ max SPD/SPATK/6HP
Scheme
Icebeam
Tri Attack
Thunderbolt/Psychic

Scheme already takes care of Bliss unless it has Thunderwave, since you'll have quadrupled your attack while it only has only boosted spdef by 2.5, psychic is useful for keeping away faster fighters that can OHKO it (looking at Infernape).

 

[CPU]

It also gets Solarbeam, for all it's worth.
A Timid Nature should also be listed as one of the Nature options.
The most powerful non-uber Boltbeamer is definitely a dangerous foe, and it's also got decent Defenses.
And one more thing- a Return from 200 Attack PorygonZ does more to maximum Defense Blissey than a Tri Attack from a 405 Special Attack, minimum Special Defense Blissey.

 

[Misty]

I do not like Hyper Beam in the slightest, if the wrong thing gets a setup opportunity you are up shit's creek. Yeah, it does a lot of damage; so did Slaking's Hyper Beam in ADV and that was situational at best.

I actually like the Choice Glasses/Choice Scarf sets. Here's how I see that going...

(Adaptive)
Tri Attack (general STAB)
HP Fighting (only move on the AS set that reliably 2HKOs Tyranitar)
Thunder (CS)/Thunderbolt(CG)
Dark Pulse (for Yonowaru)

The objective here is to 2hko pretty much everything. The Glasses set has the advantage of dealing a lot more damage to walls (if Blissey is weakened, Tri Attack might 2hko it), while the Scarf set is awesome fast (396 without even need for personality; though I'd probably just max it to beat Adamant Choice Scarf Hera).

 

[Mekkah]

Hyper Beam isn't worth a hype but I'd say it's pretty cool for teams like mine that are based around Special sweeping. I can see about anything work for this thing though.

In other news, Hyper Beam doesn't make Ghosts Focus Punch you. If Hyper Beam misses or fails (like against Ghosts), you won't have to recharge. Just switch out of Focus Punch.

Also what's Adaptive's boost again? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and it should be somewhere in this topic anyway.

 

[yawn]

Even if you switch, your opponent is guaranteed a 150 BP hit. Unless it's another ghost, then we'll see who EVed their Gengar faster, since I don't see many Weezing users.

Also what's Adaptive's boost again? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and it should be somewhere in this topic anyway.

1.5x, same as the download boost.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Hyper Beam isn't worth a hype but I'd say it's pretty cool for teams like mine that are based around Special sweeping. I can see about anything work for this thing though.

In other news, Hyper Beam doesn't make Ghosts Focus Punch you. If Hyper Beam misses or fails (like against Ghosts), you won't have to recharge. Just switch out of Focus Punch.

Also what's Adaptive's boost again? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and it should be somewhere in this topic anyway.

Does that include when Hyper Beam is Protected?

 

[cookie]

Hyper Beam should be avoided like AIDS given that you're going to see a lot more of stuff that can set up and sweep in one turn, like Gablias. If Download ca potentially boost any stat, your best bet is switching into something fast, which allows you to Scheme and sweep. If it works for attacking stats only, it's still good because it won't be hard getting it in against something with SA>ATK, so something like Regice or Blissey would suffice, instead of Alakazam, which will kill it before it can attack.

 

[SDShamshel]

I think it should be noted that a PorygonZ Adaptive Return is capable of 2hkoing Blissey.

Good times.

 

[chewy]

Does that include when Hyper Beam is Protected?

Protect/Wish Blissey is going to be big this metagame. Protect for all the Banders/Glassers out there and Wish so that whatever poke you want to counter with can take the hit and hit back. IIRC it does because the move itself doesn't fail or miss. I remember battling one such slaking and it reloaded instead of loafing. Tri Atk is still a nice 2HKO though.

 

[Blue Ditto]

Hyper Beam should be avoided like AIDS given that you're going to see a lot more of stuff that can set up and sweep in one turn, like Gablias. If Download ca potentially boost any stat, your best bet is switching into something fast, which allows you to Scheme and sweep. If it works for attacking stats only, it's still good because it won't be hard getting it in against something with SA>ATK, so something like Regice or Blissey would suffice, instead of Alakazam, which will kill it before it can attack.

I thought that people knew this by now...Download works depending on the defenses of the opponent (should be in the trait thread). If the opponent has a higher SDef than Def, then PorygonZ's Attack is boosted. If it's the opposite, its SAtk is boosted. Whether you want double STAB on a normal attack or a boost on a stat is up to you, but if you're going Download then switching into Blissey or Regice isn't a good idea.

 

[Surgo]

This is absolutely lethal. I was always thinking of Download being used by bringing it in on Alakazam or another SAtk abuser and downloading a special attack boost. Either that or bring it in on Jolty and take a speed boost

This is not how Download works. It boosts Attack or Special Attack only. See [thread=14156]here[/thread]. In addition, you'd have to have some pretty damn good predicting skills to bring in PorygonZ on Alakazam, which 2HKOes it without choice glasses and can OHKO with a single Calm Mind.

Imagine something like a jask pass or jolt pass with this. After it schemes it can OHKO anything...

Would you stop spouting this already? You can say the same with ANY SET-UP SWEEPER.

 

[Blue Ditto]

You could say the same for Ledian? :/ (sorry, sorry...*crawls away slightly*)

The thing that makes it particularly scary is the Special SD off of a 135 SAttack stat. I think that's what he was getting at.

 

[Surgo]

You could say the same for Beedrill? :/

The thing that makes it particularly scary is the Special SD off of a 135 SAttack stat. I think that's what he was getting at.

If your opponent isn't capable of stopping you in your THREE rounds of set-up time (Ninjask 1, Ninjask BP, PorygonZ scheme), they probably can't stop you in four (an extra scheme round to make up for the loss of the adaptive/download boost), and deserve what they're about to get anyway.

I don't remember Beedrill being a particularly effective sweeper...


Now, if we want to talk set-up without baton pass, that's a separate story.

 

[Mekkah]

Protect doesn't make Hyper Beam recharge by the way.

Thats pretty bloody amazing that a special attacker can actually beat Bliss, something that had previously never been heard.

This is actually pretty misleading: Entei, Suicune and Jirachi beat Blissey with 101 HP Substitute, Resttalkers beat Blissey one on one, and then there's always mixed things, Subseed Sceptile...but PorygonZ is still a very different case as it can actually OHKO Blissey with only one turn of set-up.

EDIT: By the way, I think some people are little too paranoid for Hyper Beam's recharge. Gablias using Swords Dance once shouldn't be the end of your team. Sure, it will get in one more attack than usual, but you should always pack something like Weavile or Starmie that can revenge kill it anyway, or Crescelia who can just take an Earthquake and use Reflect. I'm aware one turn or Pokemon can make a difference, but Gablias isn't guaranteed to have a sweep on you with one free turn.

 

[Phuquoph]

The shark using Swords Dance won't be sweeping if you used Hyper Beam on a Choice Scarf set either.

Turn 1 - Kill something with Hyper Beam.
Turn 2 - Shark comes in and Swords Dances, PorygonZ recharges.
Turn 3 - Outspeed and kill the shark with another Hyper Beam before it gets the chance to attack.

PorygonZ can survive a non CB/SD Earthquake even with minimum HP too (78 - 91% when Adamant, 71 - 83% when Jolly).

 

[Misty]

If you use Choice Scarf you won't be able to kill Blissey, at least not easily.

 

[Blue Ditto]

I don't remember Beedrill being a particularly effective sweeper...


Now, if we want to talk set-up without baton pass, that's a separate story.

I was just kiddin'. :b

Jolly Beedrill with max Attack and Speed, by the way, has the insane ability to 2hko a Pidgey with Sludge Bomb if it holds a Choice Band! :0

Back on topic. The only things that can compare with PorygonZ being able to boost that 135 SAtk with a stat-upping move are Salamence (of course, only applying for the physical attack instead) and Alakazam, having Dragon Dance and Calm Mind respectively. (Tyranitar and Dragonite's one point less in base power doesn't really matter, but this is for the basic comparison with an equal base stat, and *disclaimer* this isn't trying to compare the exact Pokemon as a whole).

Edit: Hold up, Dosaidon and Rampard too, sorry. Literally I just remembered as soon as I left the classroom at the end of the day. -_-

 

[Misty]

To be accurate, Rampard and Dosaidon can boost their attacks to even higher levels via Swords Dance. Of course, both of them are slow as hell.

 

[Phuquoph]

How about this to get rid of Blissey?

PorygonZ @ Life Orb
Trait: Adaptive
EVs: 140 Atk / 152 SAtk / 216 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Return
- Scheme
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

After Life Orb this yields 300 Attack, 491 Special Attack and 270 Speed.

Life Orb and Adaptive means Return does 52 - 61% to Blissey on the switch and unlike Hyper Beam you can switch out.

You do lack that awesome Tri Attack, but a BoltBeamer with Scheme and masses of special attack still sounds good to me.

 

[Biggles]

I have been wondering how Shadow Ball would work in that novelty conversion set. It occurs to me that the ability to suddenly become immune to it's only usual weak type could be a rather entertaining surprise, especially with a pretty decent speed stat.

 

[lilyhollow]

Scheme
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Hyper Beam


Sub over thunderbolt doesn't seem like the worst idea in history to me for the same reasons that Hyper Beam is being contended, but it ruins his versatility of course. =/

 

[Aero]

Doesn't Adaptive sound a bit too strong?

Tri Attack: 80 + STAB + Adaptive = 180 BP

That's just ridiculous with Scheme and 125 Base SA. I don't see why I would ever want to use BoltBeam on this monster if a NVE Tri Attack does the same damage as a neutral Bolt/Beam, and a neutral one does practically the same damage as an SE one. Assuming Adaptive works the way it does, Tri Attack/Dark Pulse gives far better coverage than BoltBeam.

 

[Phuquoph]

BoltBeam hits for 4x damage on dragons and Gyarados. Granted after a Scheme it's not likely to matter much, but BoltBeam means there's a lot more that can't risk switching in.

Although I am going to shamelessly steal the idea of using Tri Attack and Dark Pulse on that Return set I suggested.