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I think Deoxys-LG and Deoxys-E should be allowed in OU.

First of all, don't resort to calling me an idiot. It doesn't help prove your point. Now then, I'm thinking of a set for Deoxys-E. Tell me off the top of your head what it is, and then tell me which Pokemon on your team will counter it.

footballfanatic said:
No you idiot. For some reason you have this weird idea that Deoxys will OHKO anything that doesn't attack first. My sweepers consist of Raikou, Dugtrio, and Lucario. Dugtrio can trap and OHKO with Sucker Punch. Lucario has sub, but if it isn't behind a sub, it can't do much to Deoxys(unless it doesn't have Superpower, in which case Lucario can survive a neutral T-bolt and OHKO with Crunch, or I could put Extremespeed on him). Finally, Raikou can take 2 Superpowers from Max Attack Life Orb'd Deoxys Calm Mind and then kill it with STAB T-bolt, on the other side of the spectrum, Raikou can take a Max Sp. Attack Life Orb Psycho Boost even after Stealth Rock and hit it with a STAB T-bolt. Now onto my walls. I have Cresselia, who can calm mind on Deoxys, unless it has Shadow Ball in which case Cress can just T-wave and Moonlight over and over as it watches Deoxys die to Life Orb. Bliss can take all sets that don't include Superpower, and with simple prediction I can go to Cress or Weezing to take the Super Power and then back to Blissey to take the Psychic/Shadow. Bliss can then T-wave it, and heal off the damage from Superpowers that are getting weaker and weaker. After 2 Life Orb recoils Bliss 2HKO's with S-toss as well. Weezing can survive one hit from Deoxys as long as it isn't Psychic type but it can't do too much back.
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There's this thing called prediction (which you enjoy advocating on your opponent) and you can use it to get rid of all those things, save for maybe Dugtrio (that one is a lot more situational if you know your opponent has one or not).

Just because Deoxys-E is the least broken Deoxys doesn't change the fact that his movepool is out the wazoo (stats are pretty good offensively, speed is obvious). Keep in mind that movepool diversity is why Manaphy and Mew are Ubers, even though their stats are identical to Jirachi and Celebi (PLEASE don't go make topics about those).
 
Phox said:
First of all, don't resort to calling me an idiot. It doesn't help prove your point. Now then, I'm thinking of a set for Deoxys-E. Tell me off the top of your head what it is, and then tell me which Pokemon on your team will counter it.



There's this thing called prediction (which you enjoy advocating on your opponent) and you can use it to get rid of all those things, save for maybe Dugtrio (that one is a lot more situational if you know your opponent has one or not).

Just because Deoxys-E is the least broken Deoxys doesn't change the fact that his movepool is out the wazoo (stats are pretty good offensively, speed is obvious). Keep in mind that movepool diversity is why Manaphy and Mew are Ubers, even though their stats are identical to Jirachi and Celebi (PLEASE don't go make topics about those).
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You're right. If you always predict right, you'll sweep with Deoxys. My bad, he should definitely be Uber.

Sorry for calling you an idiot. It's movepool isn't any better than things like Infernape, T-tar, Blissey and all those things have better stats.
 
First of all why is prediction even included in this argument I mean anyone can predict and it's not a situational thing. We can go on and on about how player 1 can see move x coming towards whatever pokemon and switch to a pokemon that laughs at said move but that doesn't mean anything that's just the mental play of the game which I don't think has anything to do with the whole "Is Deoxys-E too good or not for OU" argument.

Also Deoxys-E has 600 BST so technically nothing has better stats than it in OU sans Slaking unless you mean a better distribution of stats?
 
Keep in mind that movepool diversity is why Manaphy and Mew are Ubers, even though their stats are identical to Jirachi and Celebi (PLEASE don't go make topics about those).
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Mew I'll give you, but Manaphy doesn't have a very diverse movepool; it just has the right moves.
 
Ok while I am neutral on this whole argument you definitely overexaggerated the size of D-E's movepool by putting in stupid shit like protect (which everything learns), water pulse, solarbeam, poison jab, aerial ace (lol) and like 3 electric special moves which wont even be used.
 
FarmerWithShotgun said:
First of all why is prediction even included in this argument I mean anyone can predict and it's not a situational thing. We can go on and on about how player 1 can see move x coming towards whatever pokemon and switch to a pokemon that laughs at said move but that doesn't mean anything that's just the mental play of the game which I don't think has anything to do with the whole "Is Deoxys-E too good or not for OU" argument.

Also Deoxys-E has 600 BST so technically nothing has better stats than it in OU sans Slaking unless you mean a better distribution of stats?
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I mean they have better stats for what they're meant to do. T-tar has higher than 600 if you count the 50% boost from his ability. Infernape has close to as good stats and a MUCH better movepool(2 180 Base Moves, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Flamethrower, Thunderpunch, Grass Knot, etc. ect.) Deoxys' base defenses count for a good chunck of his base stats, but are nearly useless thanks to his terrible HP, plus he has overkill in speed. Blissey even with its incredibly low defense is covered by its ridiculous HP, and one of the highest Sp. Defenses in the game. Add in the fact that it can Wish, has a 50% recovery move with no drawbacks, S-toss, Paralyze, Toxic, and heal the entire team with Aromatherapy.
 
FarmerWithShotgun said:
First of all why is prediction even included in this argument I mean anyone can predict and it's not a situational thing. We can go on and on about how player 1 can see move x coming towards whatever pokemon and switch to a pokemon that laughs at said move but that doesn't mean anything that's just the mental play of the game which I don't think has anything to do with the whole "Is Deoxys-E too good or not for OU" argument.
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Because people are using the "with moveset W/X/Y/Z you can sweep teams" argument, and as with all such mixed sweepers just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's going to result in 6-0 sweeps every time you play. It's important in Deoxys' case because it's not going to seriously threaten anything it doesn't hit SE coming in. I dislike having to rely on the "you can use prediction" argument, but it's really the best answer and it's also a common answer for many OU Pokemon as well: if you mispredict Garchomp or Infernape they're going to fuck you up most of the time.
 
yeah, but deoxys can recover, stealth rock, tuant, and do so much other shit, and then there's the unpredictability because of that fucking massive movepool. infernape's almost never go without close combat and a fire move. but deoxys can go with so much random shit its not even funny.
 
Sorry about that horrid list of moves that Deoxys-S gets, I didn’t look at it closely enough before I pasted it here.

Anyways… you all know it has a massive movepool and that’s the point.

@ Stathackis: That's why Mew is Uber.
 
There needs to be a poll on this because us yelling at each other will never accomplish anything. That's the only thing that we've established so far, is that we've established nothing.
 
Stathakis said:
yeah, but deoxys can recover, stealth rock, tuant, and do so much other shit, and then there's the unpredictability because of that fucking massive movepool. infernape's almost never go without close combat and a fire move. but deoxys can go with so much random shit its not even funny.
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Wow that's a horrible arguement.

Infernape gets Slack Off, doesn't mean it would be good for him to use it. Infernape has much better typing(especially for sweeping) and a flat out better movepool. Infernape can double both of his attack stats(I don't think there's any other poke that gets Swords Dance AND Nasty Plot...correct me if I'm wrong).

Of course Nape is going to have a Fighting/Fire move, that's its STAB and is 10x better attacking types than Psychic. I can almost guarantee that ever *good* Deoxys set is going to carry BoltBeam, and he doesn't get STAB on either of those.
 
EQ- Yeah but to be fair Mew is good at pretty much everything it does but Deoxys-s isn't going to be sleeping you and then BPing nasty plots to something or stalling your team out either. Blissey has a big physical movepool too but that doesn't mean she's going to use it >_>

Honestly I am a traditionalist due to my deep RS roots so I am not really a fan of deoxys partially cuz i tested it myself and was shut down but the anti argument is looking kind of weak to me no offense >_> so iono
 
Phox said:
There needs to be a poll on this because us yelling at each other will never accomplish anything. That's the only thing that we've established so far, is that we've established nothing.
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I think we've established that Deoxys-e is maybe as good as the best OU sweepers(Mence, Chomp, T-tar, Nape, etc.).

A poll would be retarded though, people who have no idea what they're talking about would just see Deoxys and vote "No".

The best means of testing this would to be like I suggested earlier:

We should have a second battle thread, where Deoxys-e would be unbanned. You don't have to use E, nor does your opponent, you just know that it could be on your opponents team.

Then, we have a second thread where you report the results of either facing a Deoxys-E, using a Deoxys-E, or both. Let this go on for a couple of weeks, and if the general consensus is that it isn't broken(which is what I believe will happen)..unban it.
Sovereign said:
Wait...wtf just happened? It looks like we reached an agreement. Did some jackass reset the discussion?
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What agreement do you speak of?
 
I still think a poll would be nice because a lot of people seem unsure where they stand. Additional testing is probably in order, since open ladder play is generally more reliable than tournaments (that seems to be the consensus I've understood from reading the other Uber -> OU threads).
 
footballfanatic said:
You're right. If you always predict right, you'll sweep with Deoxys. My bad, he should definitely be Uber.

Sorry for calling you an idiot. It's movepool isn't any better than things like Infernape, T-tar, Blissey and all those things have better stats.
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That? Or was that some bitter sarcasm
 
Amazing Ampharos said:
The thing that perturbs me about so many people's attitudes about this is that most people seem to want to say "this is the uber list that we originally got from really dubious methods; never, ever question it".
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That was the rule for this board up until a few months ago, when it was agreed that there had been enough time for people to play both the uber and standard metagames and therefore give their opinions any merit whatsoever. If you'd been paying any attention to Unchartered Territory/Stark Mountain you would know why we made that rule, and also why the recent removal of that rule hasn't exactly struck up the finest of discussion topics (read: the Ho-oh thread was locked and sent to Trou Du Cul, the Lati@s thread was locked, and now this gem is following in the muddy footsteps of the two aforementioned threads).

My next project was to focus on Wobbuffet, but it seems like that will be even more problematic. Deoxys-e doesn't even seem that great (when we look at real battles and not theorycraft), but Wobbuffet seems like he'd be top 5 OU if allowed (which is also based on real battles, but I'm the only one I know who has used him). I really think he's about equal in usefulness to Blissey which isn't uber but, with the current process that's 100% opposed to getting anything done, puts him in a nearly impossible position to be unbanned.
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I have to ask—who exactly are you directing this disappointment towards? Do you know of some magical process by which these changes that affect thousands of battlers happen "overnight"? Besides the fact that if by "current process" you mean these threads and posts on this board about the current "suspects" (uber pokes currently under consideration for the OU tier) then you are condemning yourself to have added absolutely 0% to help your plight, do not assume that those of us who actually do get stuff done around here (our administration) have closed our eyes to these threads.

As I stated in the Lati@s thread before I locked it: "there really isn't a good reason to keep this thread open, as much as i love reading (GOOD) theorymon. we may learn more from the ongoing tournament but probably not, so this issue needs to be returned to if and when it can be orchestrated formally. again, the administration is talking about this in our Inside Scoop forum, so something will come of it eventually"

So, basically, if we come out of any sort of process to deuber something really unsure about whether it is uber or not, I really think we need to drop the super conservative "never change anything" outlook and go with a "if it's only maybe uber, it's not on the uber list" plan.
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Again, you're either directing your disappointment incorrectly at the party who can make changes like this, or unfairly directing it at the masses of battlers who post their theorymon in these threads because they cannot do too much else. Neither is fair. Our administration has anything but a "never change anything" outlook, and I honestly would like to know who you are attributing that outlook to. (That isn't a rhetorical question.)
 
Jumpman, what do you think of my idea of another battle thread, or even the current battle thread, having a trial period where Deoxys-e is unbanned? Then people would be able to post their experiences in another thread. From there you guys can decide whether it breaks the metagame or not(I firmly believe that the answer will be "No").
 
footballfanatic said:
Jumpman, what do you think of my idea of another battle thread, or even the current battle thread, having a trial period where Deoxys-e is unbanned? Then people would be able to post their experiences in another thread. From there you guys can decide whether it breaks the metagame or not(I firmly believe that the answer will be "No").
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Sorry for this comment being very off topic in the discussion.

Football, I don't think you realise that the wifi metagame does not equal the shoddy metagame. Wifi is vastly inferior to shoddy as far as competitive play goes.

Edit for your below post: On wifi the IVs of pokemon are flawed, and occationally the natures. Legendary pokemon that ae comman OU threats such as Heatran and azelf are hard to obtain and usually seen less. Theres also the time factoring for wifi battleing as in shoddy you can maybe get 30 games in a 3 hour period while on wifi, you may just get 3.

EDIT for you farther down post: I said this was off-topic! I just wanted to show you that shoddy is the better envirement to test deoxys in.
 
TheMantyke said:
Sorry for this comment being very off topic in the discussion.

Football, I don't think you realise that the wifi metagame does not equal the shoddy metagame. Wifi is vastly inferior to shoddy as far as competitive play goes.

Edit for your below post: On wifi the IVs of pokemon are flawed, and occationally the natures. Legendary pokemon that ae comman OU threats such as Heatran and azelf are hard to obtain and usually seen less. Theres also the time factoring for wifi battleing as in shoddy you can maybe get 30 games in a 3 hour period while on wifi, you may just get 3.
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So...how does this affect Deoxys becoming OU?

Oh, ok. I think just unbanning him in ladder play is a better field than holding a tournament specifically for testing it.
 
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