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In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Actually, that's the area where you get Volcarona. After catching Volcarona you go up a bunch of stairs and you will be at the ledge area, with TM26 there.

Although having a 100/100 move by Nimbasa is pretty h4x though. :/ Hence Trollfreak placed it there.

(or in other words, fuck Bulldoze if we got that)
 
The whole argument is stemmed from the debate between Return/Poison Jab on Maractus, which I feel is resolved. We all agree that it has good offenses with nicely powered STABs, and both sides point to Return/Poison Jab giving the cactus some decent coverage. I think we can all stand on Maractus' being mid tier regardless of your preference on the coverage attack.

I'm sorry that is what you thought I was saying, because it really wasn't. I was saying that only really having Return coming off a 86 Attack stat for coverage is evidence that his coverage is bad. There are a fair number of Pokemon with better Stab typing, better Super-effective coverage, and/or higher Atk. Also, while it has great SpA and strong STAB choices, that doesn't make up for the fact that it is defensively lackluster (only slightly better than Cinccino) and simply too slow to remain competitive.

The only way I really see Maractus shining is either through Chlorophyll abuse (in which case it plays a lot like faster Lilligant, but without Quiver Dance or Own Tempo), or a bizarre SubSeed-Acupressure setup (which I'm not convinced would work without a little luck).

Maractus isn't completely and totally terrible, but without a separate Lower Mid Tier I can't agree with him coming out of Low. He's outclassed by too many Pokemon who are some combination of faster, bulkier, better covering, more common, and/or better STAB typed.

In other news - having just entered Route 3 for the first time in my newest run, my two Vital Spirit Lillipups are level 13-14 with only 135 and 137 happiness, but I haven't used many Potions on them yet. I'll check again before fighting Lenora to see how they're doing. Edit: 165 for both, 135 for the stupid Pidove I caught. Thus far Pidove is terrible, and not just because 75% were Big Pecks and the rest kept getting hit by crits and dying. It seriously took as long to get a Super Luck Pidove as it did to get a good Sawk because of my terrible luck.

I'm not sure what I'm going to use for this run. I'm open to suggestions. Scraggy is guaranteed (I'm trying him from the beginning of the run this time), and I'm leaning toward trying out Pidove, Emolga, or Ducklett, but the last slots are still up for grabs. If anyone has a suggestion for what I should test this run, I'd love to hear it.

EQ is only available in the post-game, yes, although you can see it shortly after gym 3. It's in a ledged-off segment of Relic Castle that you can only access by going to the other side of the maze area and ascending a long series of staircases.
I know. That statement was supposed to be a little tongue-in-cheek, but I always forget that light sarcasm doesn't work online. Especially sucky light sarcasm.
 
Actually, that's the area where you get Volcarona. After catching Volcarona you go up a bunch of stairs and you will be at the ledge area, with TM26 there.

Although having a 100/100 move by Nimbasa is pretty h4x though. :/ Hence Trollfreak placed it there.

(or in other words, fuck Bulldoze if we got that)

You don't need to catch Volcarona to get it or access the staircase that leads to the ledge area.

But this is irrelevant.
 
You don't need to catch Volcarona to get it or access the staircase that leads to the ledge area.

But this is irrelevant.

That's what 99% of people will do since you have to go to that area to arrest one of the Sages anyway, so just kill 2 birds with 1 stone and catch Volcarona at the same time.
 
I don't want to spark up the Maractus debate again, but I've been using Maractus and it's been really good for me. I had to baby it until I got Needle Arm (and then less so to get Giga Drain) but that wasn't that long. It wasn't too hard finding it in the desert, and its good balance is great for in-game. I used both Poison Jab and Return, but I had to wait a bit before I got Poison Jab. To be honest, the lack of coverage really didn't matter because I can always switch to another poke. I definitely support moving him to Mid Tier
 
I'd argue for moving Tympole down to mid.

Using Tympole in Black was all right, but it wasn't great. It held its own, don't get me wrong, but it really drags late as a Tympole and again late in the game. Surf is nice but Bulldoze and Sludge Bomb aren't exactly star options otherwise. It would be awesome if it learned Blizzard but as it is it's a decent choice but not worthy of high.

Mid with the current tiers, if this eventually splits to an upper-mid it would probably be a great candidate for that.

I'm kind of on the edge with Joltik as well but I feel like I can live with it being high, but just barely.
 
I'd argue for moving Tympole down to mid.

Using Tympole in Black was all right, but it wasn't great. It held its own, don't get me wrong, but it really drags late as a Tympole and again late in the game. Surf is nice but Bulldoze and Sludge Bomb aren't exactly star options otherwise. It would be awesome if it learned Blizzard but as it is it's a decent choice but not worthy of high.

Mid with the current tiers, if this eventually splits to an upper-mid it would probably be a great candidate for that.

I'm kind of on the edge with Joltik as well but I feel like I can live with it being high, but just barely.



It does learn Dig ya know. But, yeah, i agree that it isnt high tier matieral.
 
It does learn Dig ya know. But, yeah, i agree that it isnt high tier matieral.

Okay yeah put Dig over Bulldoze then, I don't know how I missed that... Didn't find the Ground move being used too much though, it mainly spammed moderately-powered Surfs. Too bad there's a bunch of resists to it out there.
 
I'd like to make a case for moving Cubchoo up. You can get it at level 32 on the route before Celestial Tower, and it evolves at level 37. In other words, you can basically Lucky Egg -> switch through Celestial Tower, do a few extra battles (Brine on Litwicks) and you're set. It also learns Icicle Crash at that level, so if you can handle Swanna you will be able to take the rest of the Flying-gym with it.

Its HP was higher than expected, which was nice.

I used a set of Icicle Crash / Brick Break / Strength / Bulldoze @ Expert Belt to success in game, especially against the last 3 gyms (takes on Flying easily, takes Ice with Brick Break, and was a great utility during the Dragon-type gym).
 
I'd like to make a case for moving Cubchoo up. You can get it at level 32 on the route before Celestial Tower, and it evolves at level 37. In other words, you can basically Lucky Egg -> switch through Celestial Tower, do a few extra battles (Brine on Litwicks) and you're set. It also learns Icicle Crash at that level, so if you can handle Swanna you will be able to take the rest of the Flying-gym with it.

Its HP was higher than expected, which was nice.

I used a set of Icicle Crash / Brick Break / Strength / Bulldoze @ Expert Belt to success in game, especially against the last 3 gyms (takes on Flying easily, takes Ice with Brick Break, and was a great utility during the Dragon-type gym).
Excellent point about the gyms, Cubchoo definitely hits some really nice SE moves.

But I'm going to have to disagree on top tier. Yes, you can go to Celestial tower, use a lucky egg, etc, but you basically have to baby it until it evolves (lvl 37), that exp. could easily be used on something else that would be much better post-8th gym. I feel like after the 8th (which isn't really that hard) Cubchoo loses out on the SE moves that made it really effective. The hardest part of the game is the E4 (and later), Cubchoo isn't hitting SEs anymore and it suffers because of it relative to some top-tier pokes that wreak regardless of weaknesses. Also its movepool after Icicle crash is abysmal. And requiring TMs to create a lacklustre coverage just seems like an over-accommodation.

Useful mid/late game but requires babying for the benefit of making the late gyms slightly easier (they're pretty easy anyway) and something that ultimately is not hugely useful very late game, a time where power is really needed. I also feel there's a few better late game options. Also vanilluxe is pretty beastly once it evolves. So I'd say mid, perhaps at a push top but I'd need more convincing.

I'd also like to say that Snivy is absolutely awful. For a starter, it is outclassed by loads of other grass types, it is outclassed by tepig/ oshawott, it has an awful movepool without resorting to TMs. With resorting to TMs it becomes bearable. Early game it suffers to the 1st (the monkeys are better) 3rd (this was a huge struggle) gyms. Late game it just sucks. It's only real saving points would be the fast leveling and the 5th gym, even then some of the ground types can give it difficulty. Bottom tier even when not compared to the other options available.

Edit: just looked up meganarium and Serperior is worse than even that... Don't know if anyone else remembers the stuggles of choosing Chikorita in Gold/ Silver but it's similar... I would never recommend Snivy to someone playing, especially someone looking to beat the game fast. Mid tier is too generous for such a limited poke.
 
Absolutely not. With Coil, Marshal is swept, and is the best non Psychic, as flyers are hit by stone edge. He could always outspeed things, and still had decent offensive power onse he got leaf blade, but late servine was a bit tricky...
 
I support moving Cubchoo up. I really didn't have to baby it at all. It raped with Icicle Crash, and had nice utility with Surf. The movepool was not barren at all. Shadow Claw, Brick Break, Rock Slide, and Superpower are all great options. It performed really well for me against the E4 (with the exception of Marshall). Its strong STAB move plowed through pokes with weak defenses. It also could use Brick Break against mons like Darkly's Bisharp. It helped out against Ghetsis's Hydreigon and N's Zekrom. High tier material.
 
Just remember, everyone, that Cubchoo can normally only be found in Twist Mountsin, and that's about a 10% chance iirc.
 
But I'm going to have to disagree on top tier.
I think he was arguing for Mid Tier, not High. Arguing Cubchoo for High Tier is a little bit absurd, given its terrible defensive typing, speed, and general lameness before evolving.

And requiring TMs to create a lacklustre coverage just seems like an over-accommodation.
TMs are reusable, so this point is flatly wrong. Having a good TM learnset is an amazing bonus for a Pokemon. And Beartic can learn several of the most important coverage TMs - Brick Break, Aerial Ace, Shadow Claw, and Rock Slide. Add relearning Superpower and you have a great Pokemon coverage-wise.

That being said, I'd still argue for Low or Lower Mid (if the tier is created), since Cubchoo is too late in the game, dead weight until he evolves, hard to find except in Winter, slow, and too weak against attacks that become fairly common late game.

I'd also like to say that Snivy is absolutely awful. For a starter, it is outclassed by loads of other grass types,
Not really. Snivy is the only Grass-type that fills his particular niche, so he can't really be outclassed unless you stretch the term pretty far. And while there's no huge demand for fast, bulky Grass types, if you want one he's pretty much the only option.

it is outclassed by tepig/ oshawott,
So what? Just because the other two starters are generally better shouldn't have to much of an effect on Snivy's tiering. While there is the opportunity cost of not getting either of the other two starters, it's still a Pokemon that is quite literally handed to you at the very beginning of the game, so if he's at least tolerable he shouldn't be Bottom tier.

And besides, it's not like Snivy is necessarily "outclassed" by the other two, since it gets the best boosting moves and has the best survivability against foes that can't hit his weaknesses.

it has an awful movepool without resorting to TMs. With resorting to TMs it becomes bearable.
Why shouldn't we consider TMs? I'll concede that he's severely lacking in coverage options, but I'm hesitant to say his movepool is awful, since he gets pretty good STABs at good times, Growth, and eventually Coil.

Early game it suffers to the 1st (the monkeys are better)
Would you really use Tepig or Oshawott against this fight, though? And besides, using Snivy has the advantage of pitting you against the absolute easiest Monkey, while you've just picked up the absolute best one.

3rd (this was a huge struggle) gyms.
Oshawott doesn't fair too much better, what with all the Sewaddle running around.

Late game it just sucks. It's only real saving points would be the fast leveling and the 5th gym, even then some of the ground types can give it difficulty.
Coil with his bulk and speed buys him a fair amount of time to set up and sweep. Even if you are forced to use a neutral Return, you'll still hit OHKOs pretty often at +3 or more Attack.

Bottom tier even when not compared to the other options available.
I'd say Mid Tier, maybe Lower Mid if the tier existed.

Edit: just looked up meganarium and Serperior is worse than even that...
Serperior has 34 points of Speed over Meganium, Growth, Coil, physical attacks, and Leech Seed. They're hardly comparable.

Mid tier is too generous for such a limited poke.
He's easily accessable, gains good STABs at good times, has good bulk and great speed, and so forth. He's not amazing, but he certainly isn't Munna bad.

Also, it's worth noting that Panpour is mostly a faster, frailer Oshawott that hits its final evolution 14 levels sooner and has a slightly different movepool (Acrobatics instead of Megahorn, Brick Break instead of Revenge, etc.). So you don't really lose that much by picking Snivy over Oshawott.

Tepig's evolutions have the unfortunate property of being Fire/Fighting Pokemon without being either Darumaka or Scrafty/Sawk, and Pansage suffers from not being Petilil, so it's entirely reasonable to avoid Tepig on grounds of being redundant.

So it actually isn't unreasonable to suggest Snivy simply for the free Panpour, which is admittedly a weird and counter-intuitive choice, but still perfectly valid. Since none of the three starters are really amazing compared to stuff you can find in the wild in this game (Oshawott being a partial exception, being somewhat better than anything else you can find), it ultimately doesn't matter too much what starter you pick.
 
Lolwut

You are comparing Snivy to Tepig and Oshawott? Wha...?

Oshawott, IMO, is a reverse-Lillipup: somewhat crappy earlygame, but excellent lategame. Snivy is average and he is NOT a Meganium. I stress, NOT A MEGANIUM. Meganium uses dual screens, Snivy uses Leech Seed spammage and Coil. And Meganium is still quite slow, and is a starter in a game where the first 2 gyms rape it(Snivy and the other starters have an excuse for getting raped by the first gym, but you HAVE the monkey, and the only thing you need to bother with Lenora is prolly Watchog's Retaliate.). Snivy suffers from Burgh, but Burgh is... LOL. Even if you don't have Tepig(and god no, do not suggest Pansear), Darumaka is already available and even then, you can just backtrack and grab yourself Venipede on the way, so that you have some form of offense against Sewaddle.

Admittedly, Bayleef is the best option for Whitney due to Reflect, and even then that gender ratio does fuck you over in the ass, very hard. >_>

Chikorita and Snivy are completely different. The fuck are you comparing them, lol?

Also, Tepig is terribly slow and only has 3 slots to use his AWESOME movepool with(since everyone says that Flame Charge is a must on him). So he gets a massive case of 3-moveslot syndrome, especially when FC's power is just, lolweak. For a fire-type, the only things he actually betters are Pansear and Heatmor, the other fire-types(which are Victini and Darumaka) easily outclass him in every way possible. I'd rather capitalise on Emboar's somewhat decent bulk and directly spam Hammer Arm instead.

P.S.: Cubchoo sucks. All the ice-types this gen suck though. And you have faster methods of beating Skyla(Joltik, Zebstrika) and Brycen(Darmanitan, FERROSEED, Conkeldurr, Sawk, Throh). He only wins the last gym for me. :/ And finding one out of winter is... crap.

P.P.S.: Is there any update between the Timburr VS Sawk discussion?
 
Chubchoo is not worthy, even if both gyms after you can have one lose to Ice, I think its not worth wasting a team slot.
Eelektross is usable in-game, but raising a Tynamo is not very easy.
Oshawott is useful near the E4, but early game you will not get much of it. Lillipup and the monkeys are the inverse, they prove useful Early, but won't do much Later. Tepig takes a while to get really useful moves, and will be using Flame Charge a lot, so its kind of useful. Snivy really won't do much without its DW Ability, it has rather disapponting Stats overall, In-Game strategy is always welcome, but you will probably want to rush your way through things with offensive 'mons. Most Pokémons you get after the Second gym will only be worthy on their final Evolution (Venipede, Tynamo, among others). Also theres always the ''You will not want to use that thing'' Factor. You will not want to use a Sewaddle when you have Ferrothorn. You will not want Water/Grass/Fire monkey late-game because of Basculin/Ferrothorn/Victini.
Sawk is useful the whole game a bit, while Timburr is bad early, good Mid and EXTREMILY AWESOME late, so they are basically the same, except that Speed is great in storyline.
Snivy is some of the worst Grass starters, hands down. Tepig is a lot better Late game, but I still think Blaziken and Nape are kind of more useful. Oshawott is average, I like Empoleon and Feraligatr better.
 
As clarification, I was arguing for Cubchoo in Mid-tier, which I still stand by.

If you can argue that Conkeldurr and its prevos are viable if you have access to trading, you can certainly argue that Cubchoo is viable in mid tier with access to winter.

You will not want to use a Sewaddle when you have Ferrothorn. You will not want Water/Grass/Fire monkey late-game because of Basculin/Ferrothorn/Victini

First of all, you are arguing completely different things here. Sewaddle and Ferrothorn are all but incomparable; one focuses on defense, low pp, and general stalling via Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet, while the other gets a beneficial late game offensive typing in Bug-type, and is more offensive.

Also, Darumaka is more comparable as a competitor to the Simisear line; Victini is really better when examined with other Psychic-types, or not at all, considering access to it will be gone soon.

And Basculin? Really?
 
Once Panpour evolves into Simipour (should be done at level 22, still FAR before you get Basculin), it has higher Attack AND Special Attack than Basculin. In fact, it's superior to Basculin in EVERY stat, except for Defense, which it loses to Basculin by 2 points in. Not only that, its movepool far outclasses Basculin, who has what, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Crunch, and maybe Return? I just don't see a case to be made for Basculin.
 
Basculin is respectably fast, has decent attack, and nice typing, wheras Panpour has....well, nothing but Cheer Up and I SUPPOSE Focus Blast, but not much.

Nice typing? I see, Basculin's Water typing is far superior to Simipour's Water typing. Much fresher water. More pure. Doesn't have any of that horrid monkey smell.
 
I'd like to argue Whimsicott should be high-tier, as long as it's prankster. Sure, it doesn't have Encore, but with things like Stun Spore and Attract, it reduced anything male to a wailing pile of miss.
And I'd also vouch that (s)Woobat isn't bottom tier. I caught one early on, it easily outclassed Munna with it's flinch-hax(heart-stamp and air cutter I think), and honestly, I brought mine all the way to the Elite Four. I wasn't terribly useful, but provided it went before Stone Edge, it was able to take on plenty of pokes with no issue. I wouldn't call it top-tier, by any means, but it cirtainly pulled it's weight much better than you'd expect from the bugger. Cirtainly more than any Zubat ever did.
 
While saying Basculin is better that Panpour is a stretch to say the least, it does have a few good things going for it:

- Double-Edge is pretty nice (though it desperately wants STAB). Redeye/Blueeye capitalize on this move pretty well, giving them solid neutral coverage.
- Being in-game trades, Redeye/Blueye have amazing EVs, have good natures, are quite accessible, and get increased experience. This goes a long way towards making up for their shortcomings.
- Caught Basculin can have Adaptability, which is absolutely amazing. Too bad the trade ones are both male and the only Gen V Pokemon that can breed with them anyways is Alomomola (which isn't available until after you have Surf).
- Water Jet is great, and Soak can be situationally good.
- Aqua Tail means you don't really need to go get Waterfall if you don't want to.

Ultimately, I wouldn't bother with Basculin unless I chose Tepig, but it's not like it is a completely terrible Pokemon.

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I'm having mixed feelings about Pidove. It plays a lot like a Lillipup with crappy defenses, no Dig/Crunch, and that evolves for the first time a little later than it should. To make up for this, it does have a higher Crit ratio and a handful of mediocre Flying moves (since they are all Special attacks besides Aerial Ace/Fly). He is nice against Gyms 3 and 5, but is worthless against numbers 3 and 7. I'm honestly not sure how he's going to fair against Marshal, which is who I originally was thinking of when I decided to catch a Pidove.

The fact that he is available pretty early and has decent stats (and is one of the easiest Flying types to find) pushes it into Lower Mid for me, but I think that Mid is more appropriate than Low for the current tier choices.

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Whimsicott isn't High Tier material. Just because he can annoy Pokemon doesn't mean he can kill them fast enough to deserve being in the High Tier. His low defenses mean that trying to disable something with Attract is risky at best.

Woobat has crappy stats and you can't guarantee Flinch Hax. It has no defenses, no offenses, multiple common weaknesses, and mediocre-to-terrible abilities. It pretty much defines what it means to be Low Tier.
 
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