In-game tier list policy discussion thread

I have a feel that sadly SV has the same issue of SwSh where having access to (almost) the entire Pokedex right from the start makes creating a tier list somewhat of a issue...

HOWEVER...

one thing that could reliably be used as base for a tier list would be trying to rank mons based on their ability to be used for the entirety of the game. Ultimately we're looking at 8 gyms, 5 team star boss fights, and the 5 titan fights, as well as e4 and the other battles before the final arc.
I definitely remind some pokemon being significantly nonimpressive back when I played to the point of regretting having even bothered to level them, so if a tierlist attempt had to be made, it would probably have to consider "all stories" as metric, rather than availability (as with very few exception, pretty much every pokemon in the game can be obtained as soon as you are out of the tutorial, or in worst case after having beaten enough gyms to have lvl 30 obedience, high level fixed tera encounters nonwhitstanding)
Yes we would be doing all stories for sure. Anything post-credits wouldn't count imo, similar to how the other lists have done things.

How do you feel about potentially enforcing a set order for the gyms based on the level curve? I'm 50/50 on it, it provides a clearer path but you could probably roundhouse the harder bosses when you know what to expect.

In terms of bad mons, I have heard horror stories about Tarontula lol, and I wasn't a fan of Shroodle
 
Yes we would be doing all stories for sure. Anything post-credits wouldn't count imo, similar to how the other lists have done things.
Well SV didn't exactly lock much to "postgame" anyway.
Kingambit evo item and the first 2 paradoxes are locked to the final quest, and the other paradoxes + the legendary are locked to postgame, but it's really all there is, everything else is just somewhere in the overworld.

How do you feel about potentially enforcing a set order for the gyms based on the level curve? I'm 50/50 on it, it provides a clearer path but you could probably roundhouse the harder bosses when you know what to expect.
Honestly that's more or less how people would do anyway.
The only "exceptions" i'd consider would really be the "first" of the 3 routes since ... people basically skipped them on accident anyway, often due to being mistled by the trailers, and you can easily end up overleveling them without even trying. After these the game kinda "forces" you to go on level due to the level curve being surprisingly decent and not allowing for big jumps. Sure you can tackle the titans while being a bit underleveled due to them being double battles, but both the gyms and the star mobiles can easily overrun if done "out of order" honestly.

ofc YMMV
 
Do four badges make them obey you?
Four badges would allow for pokemon up to level 40, which is basically any non-terad pokemon caught in the wild.
Not true. You can catch wild Bisharp outside the Fighting raid area and solo them against each other to evolve.
Wait, I thought the only ones holding the Leader Crest were the ones in A.Zero , was I lied to? :zonger:
 
I don't know what a Leader Crest is, the evolution method is defeating three Bisharp that lead a pack of Pawniard
I was under the impression that you needed to have your Bisharp hold Leader's Crest and then defeat 3 other Bisharps holding that item (aka the ones that lead Pawniards)

But Bulbapedia also says that they just have to be Bisharps leading pawniards...that leads me to wonder what the Leader Crest even does now...
 

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I was under the impression that you needed to have your Bisharp hold Leader's Crest and then defeat 3 other Bisharps holding that item (aka the ones that lead Pawniards)

But Bulbapedia also says that they just have to be Bisharps leading pawniards...that leads me to wonder what the Leader Crest even does now...
I think the interpretation is those Bisharps hold those items as the pack leaders and you have to take them down but don't have to hold it yourself. Mine evolved straightforward enough in any case.
 
I was under the impression that you needed to have your Bisharp hold Leader's Crest and then defeat 3 other Bisharps holding that item (aka the ones that lead Pawniards)

But Bulbapedia also says that they just have to be Bisharps leading pawniards...that leads me to wonder what the Leader Crest even does now...
It designates that the Bisharp is a leader. That's why it exists.

Like what the game is probably looking for is a way to differentiate between solo Bisharp and "leader" Bisharp. But once a Bisharp is spawned it probably can't do that, it needs a flag. So when it spawns a leader bisharp when it spawns the horde, it 100% Spawns one with the item and then Bisharp's evolution method just checks that it killed 3 of those.
 
Has anybody found any potential S tiers in SV in-game? My Gyarados was great but it didn't quite feel like an S tier despite saving me numerous times. Mudsdale for sure didn't feel nearly as good as in the Alola games because of how many more Pokemon bosses have.
 
I think than our beloved Fire Croco is the best Pokemon in the game ?
The Parrot with Hustle + Aerial Ace was quite good !
Hammer Girl have a so good dual type, at least her stats were meh ;)

I don't find this game really complicated even if I never was overlevelled. I think Electrick Gym (Elec - Misdreavus with Levitate) and the Normal Gym (My Pawnmot was disappointing) are the strongest ... ?

Sorry : It's too early for me to use the real names, I mix French & English Pokemon so I describe them and no real name
 
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I think than our beloved Fire Croco is the best Pokemon in the game ?
The Parrot with Hustle + Aerial Ace was quite good !
Hammer Girl have a so good dual type, at least her stats were meh ;)

I don't find this game really complicated even if I never was overlevelled. I think Electrick Gym (Elec - Misdreavus with Levitate) and the Normal Gym (My Pawnmot was disappointing) are the strongest ... ?
I am going to use Fuecoco in my next playthrough. Using Quaxwell, Klawf, and Wooper at the moment, just beat the first gym.

Squawkabilly being good surprises me. Hustle and Aerial Ace sounds alright, but I struggle to see how consistent it would be outside of that one trick. The movepool doesn’t look very diverse either.

I can totally attest to Tinkaton being good as I used one in my first playthrough! It’s not super great before it is fully evolved but it’s average enough. Once it is Tinkaton and has the good moves though, it becomes quite the monster. You can frequently swap it in on so many mons because Steel / Fairy is just that good of a type. Felt like a B tier. It’s not overwhelmingly good but felt plenty reliable.

I can totally support Iono and Larry both being arguably the hardest leaders. Iono is hard mostly because there’s a high chance you aren’t fully evolved yet and the actually no weaknesses Mismagius and Larry is tricky due to status and that Staraptor.
 
Yeah, I think it's worth splitting off a separate thread. There's definite tiers of usefulness among mons, and people clearly want to discuss that, so creating a place makes sense.

Issues I see:
Difficulty. The games can only be so hard, especially with Tera for a further boost and odd choices for gym design. What level of effectiveness qualifies as A-Tier under modern conditions?
Order. Do we want to push the level order as basically mandatory for testing?
Availability. Both "how many of the 400 damn mons are we tiering" and "what counts as out-of-the-way/only available late-game"?
Grinding. We now have several generations with always-on EXP-share that we can learn from. This gen seems mostly to match where you should be following the level order for bosses, but I could feel the difference when keeping Slow and Fast mons on the same team. How much does the fact that if you have a Tauros and a Maushold on the same team meaning that you need to always lead Tauros to keep their level similar matter to the ranking?
 
How far out of the way is too far is definitely one of the most important questions for S/V. I highly doubt first gym Glaceon is the most powerful Pokémon you can get by going somewhere you're not supposed to.
I mean, I have a Thunderbolt Bellibolt with only one badge and two Titans beat, so...

yeah SV is nutty and I'm still working out how to gauge it. my first gut feeling is just allowing all the busted stuff after years of restrictions. it's hard to say though.
 
Has anybody found any potential S tiers in SV in-game? My Gyarados was great but it didn't quite feel like an S tier despite saving me numerous times. Mudsdale for sure didn't feel nearly as good as in the Alola games because of how many more Pokemon bosses have.
Aren't Flamigo is like USUM's Hawlucha?
 
How far out of the way is too far is definitely one of the most important questions for S/V. I highly doubt first gym Glaceon is the most powerful Pokémon you can get by going somewhere you're not supposed to.
I got Ceruledge by the first gym and Gallade by the second lol. I didn't actually use Ceruledge too much, but it was really strong vs the E4 and 8th gym, esp since it gets Bitter Blade by then. Gallade was just broken the entire game. It can still do the Swords Dance + Drain Punch Combo that made it strong in BDSP, but I didn't even bother with that and just used its strong AF Sacred Sword (which is almost as strong as +2 Drain Punch) to wreck everything. Its crazy it gets that move as soon as it evolves.
 
I got Ceruledge by the first gym and Gallade by the second lol. I didn't actually use Ceruledge too much, but it was really strong vs the E4 and 8th gym, esp since it gets Bitter Blade by then. Gallade was just broken the entire game. It can still do the Swords Dance + Drain Punch Combo that made it strong in BDSP, but I didn't even bother with that and just used its strong AF Sacred Sword (which is almost as strong as +2 Drain Punch) to wreck everything. Its crazy it gets that move as soon as it evolves.
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Is Gallade S tier in your eyes like my hypothetical description concludes? (I'm briefly reviewing every mon to give everybody some stuff to go on when the list hopefully drops).

Like out of the first 100 mons, I think it was pound-for-pound the most broken thing I've seen yet.
 
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Is Gallade S tier in your eyes like my hypothetical description concludes? (I'm briefly reviewing every mon to give everybody some stuff to go on when the list hopefully drops).

Like out of the first 100 mons, I think it was pound-for-pound the most broken thing I've seen yet.
Kinda hard to say. My Gallade was Adamant with perfect Attack & Speed EVs so it may have performed better for me than most others. I also restricted myself from using it as I was using 15+ other Pokemon + sometimes wanted to challenge myself lol. Still, there is no denying that its pretty nutty. I ran Psycho Cut / Sacred Sword / Leaf Blade / Night Slash with Scope Lens and it is quite amazing due to its amazing 100+ BP Coverage and amazing damage output, esp w/ 50% crit on most of its attacks. There were a few problem spots here and there, but it did amazing in every single battle I used it in. It made a few of the titans like Orthworm a joke, as well as other battles like Nemona's third Rival Battle, etc. It was still great in the late-game, though its meh typing and middling Speed did become a bit more noticeable by then. However, its damage output was still among the best of the best and its speed and special bulk were still enough get the job done on most occasions. Whatever issues I had could have probably been rectified if I ran a more optimal item like Choice Scarf or Black Belt on it. Its EXP group being slow kinda didn't really matter most of the time either, (might have been helpful actually since it was less likely to overlevel lol)

I could see either S or A working, since Ralts is kinda a dead slot (though I didn't think that mattered too much in the early game) + the weak physical bulk, middling speed, and Slow EXP gain can be annoying in some instances, but most of these problems really don't matter when its doing so much damage. It did well even against some of the overleveled trainers / mons I'd find here and there in the overworld, which was impressive.
 

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I don't think anything stood out in my games in terms of brokenness really apart from Garganacl. And even then that wasn't stupid.

If we want to proceed with a Tier List for Scarlett and Violet - the general premise does seem much easier than with Sword and Shield. Whilst there are just as many Pokemon available, due to the changes in how the Badge System/Obedience system work AND the more spread out selection of Pokemon (ie not 200 species available in one tiny area) this makes it significantly different to tier.

I know a few people have DM'd me about a list for SV - I am still in two minds about how successful that would be, but I am going to let DrumstickGaming come up with some sort of basic tier list (He has messaged me saying he has rough ranks for ~100 mons or so). I'm not sure how well the "early" versions come out of the lists as there is still considerable bias in terms of levels etc (especially towards the end game) but there may be enough difference in traversal options and Pokemon spread for the endeavour to work. Even raids are locked behind difficulty as its extremely difficult to be carried and you got mons way above your level which won't obey.

I presume slicing the map into the Provinces/Areas is one way, as well as through the various actions the Ride Legend can make (though I bet very few Pokemon are totally off limits due to this). I am also not sure how we would "limit" the direction of the game to make it more balanced. There is a "suggested" route - but in a game without any particular limits on direction I am not sure how feasible it would be to force players into one direction or another. Though I presume that is a discussion for the actual thread.
 

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