These in-game tier lists are about how viable Pokemon are in an efficient playthrough.
Efficient doesn't mean we jolt to the end of the game in the absolute fastest way possible with no time for side stuff. But given how practically every Pokemon can work at least fine given enough time and resources, there needs to be a ground that differentiates Pokemon that need a lot of help and ones that need none.
I agree.
It comes down to opportunity cost. Every time you do something, you could do something else instead. And Pokemon that require more time or resource investment make your playthrough lesss efficient than Pokemon that require litte support.
The poster child that comes to mind for me is Bagon in Hoenn. It comes really late but you could spend an hour and several Rare Candies and TMs to get a Salamence with good moves. But there pretty much is no reason to do this from a practical standpoint because with those items and the time invested, you could have just finished the game already by that point. Nuzlocke tier lists generally don't care very much about this, though. They invest this hour and those resources gladly just to be super safe with a strong Pokemon. But for your typical casual playthrough that these lists are based around, it is just not worth it. Which is why Bagon is in the lowest rank in in-game tiers lists but near the top in Nuzlocke tier lists.
I agree here in general, especially with that specific example. However, there’s a difference between spending hours grinding up a weak, underleveled mon into being a Salamence and spending 15-20 minutes doubling back, or training up a Pokemon isn’t a big deal if you are interested in using it.
For example, yeah Magikarp is annoying in earlier generations at first, because of weak it is before evolving, but I’m sure most Pokemon fans don’t have trouble waiting through that awkward period because of how iconic and strong gyarados is.
For Scyther in Johto, you have to do the Bug Contest, but worst case scenario you’re looking at roughly 60 encounters before you have >95 percent odds of encountering. I can time it, but that’s really not too bad.
In the end these tier lists are just a guide or resource. Most people generally don't look those up on their first playthrough, and those that do are probably somewhat familiar with Pokemon at least.
That is not too surprising. The higher ranked Pokemon mostly all use some of those moves because those are the best moves in the game and offer great results. And fast and strong Pokemon with great moves often sweep well which is what you want for an efficient playthrough.
Like you said, these lists are not a team building guide. You can't just pick the top 6 mons and there is your team because there for sure is going to be some overlap of rare resources. It is more about showing how viable Pokemon are and if you want to use a weaker Pokemon, you can check for stronger Pokemon that can cover their weaker areas.
Sure. But there comes a point that I think has been crossed where it gets too hyper fixated on that ideal build that the standards become unrealistic.
Think of the NFL: Quarterbacks are the most important position in the league by far. But teams still expend salary and resources on the other positions, and while QBs dominate the discussion, we still spend time thinking about the other positions.
When 7 of the top 10 Pokemon occupy the same role, it’s not as helpful because you’re only choosing 1-2 of those Pokemon every run.
In the HGSS list, it’s insane. Out of the S and A tier, there are 5 picks acquire-able without trading, which many playing on cart/emulators won’t have an easy way to do. And of those, two are starters, and one is a legendary not available until the endgame. And frankly gyarados is only so high because it comes over leveled from when you get it.
The suggested structures don’t work for this game because clearly some grinding is necessary, there are tons of daily events for a reason. Like that makes the lists half useless for most people.
Location is actually very important when looking at a Pokemon's in-game viabiliy. The earlier a Pokemon is available, the more it can contribute over the course of the game. A Pokemon that comes very late but does fare well in those last few battles is very likely contributing less in total then a Pokemon that comes very early, even if it falls off a bit in the end. They simply can help with more parts of the game, be there for more gyms, etc. Availbility directly determines how useful a Pokemon can even be. Pokemon that come later and thus can help with less of the game naturally rank lower than Pokemon that can help with more, even if they are weaker Pokemon at the end. Very few Pokemon that come late are going to rank highly. Early Pokemon also gain a much more EVs than late game Pokemon which buffs their weaker stats up.
Additionally, the games are set up so that you add Pokemon throughout the game. If you want a whole team of 6 before most 2nd gyms, the team is going to have uneven levels or be underleveled. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to pick up Pokemon at that point.
Punishing Pokemon for not being available until after the 3rd/4th gym is silly because you’re still likely to want team members then. If you are realistically going to add team members maybe 40 percent through the game, and they’re getting punished for not being available until that point, it obfuscates the point of the tier list.
At some point, until after the 5th/6th gym, Pokemon should be evaluated based on when they are available. IE, using the same idea as conditional probability. I should be able to see the tier list and be able to compare two Pokemon’s placements and know,
given I select this Pokemon after _____, I know it will perform better than Pokemon in lower tier. Until after we’re sufficiently close to the late game that even minor underleveling or adding team members is unrealistic.
And if that leads to a bunch of S/A Pokemon being available after the 3rd/4th gym, then the game has a serious structural problem.
If people wanna look at encounter tables, they can. You’ve already said they’ve played the game before and will understand the basics of teambuilding and will roughly know when Pokemon are available.
I am not aware of which early game Pokemon would require a bunch of TMs and EXP and still be ranked high. Availability is just one more factor and if the Pokemon in question needs too many resources anyway, then it will be ranked lower despite their early availability.
As far as early games go, FRLG has a rather restrictive one from my experience, so having a Pokemon that does help with that part of the game is a big deal if you want to use something like Charizard.
Yeah, and it should be more punished for it, because it can’t contribute. That’s more punishing that a Pokemon being weaker at the endgame or any other weak stretches.
Well, where do you want common or average Pokemon to go? Meh Normal types with STAB are the definition of okay. Never all that great but rarely bad. So they should be around the middle of the list. Factors like availability can certainly move them up or down, though.
A team is very likely not only consisting of A- and S-tier Pokemon.
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. Charizard is ranked lower because its bad early game makes the game harder than it needs to be. Of course it is totally fine if you want to have a harder playthrough but the difference in ranking just shows that there are Pokemon available that perform better.
These lists only care about the main story and don't consider post game at all. Hence why items like TMs and the Master Ball, that are difficult to reobtain, are adviced to be used without consideration for post game. If you assume the game is over after the Champion, then there is no reason not to use the Master Ball on an otherwise difficult to catch Pokemon. Doing so saves time that you can use for something more productive in finishing the game more efficiently. If you want to preserve rare stuff for post game, then the advice from these tier lists is not that helpful to you.
Yes, but what differentiates FRLG is that, to my understanding, you need to use the masterball on the roaming Pokemon because when it roars it disappears due to a glitch.
Either way, everyone who’s played the game before knows how Masterballs work and that catching legendaries is hard. Telling them that is condescending.
And again, catching a legendary doesn’t take more than 30 minutes. Hell, in B2W2 it didn’t take more than 15 for the Swords of Justice. To act like it’s some massive deal is absurd.
