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In Game Tiers, Platinum Edition!!
- Thread starter RBG
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I would like to make an appeal that Gastly raise in the tiers, how much is your call, for one reason: Destiny Bond. While it learns Destiny Bond at a relatively high level, the move can be invaluable during the E4. I personally beat Platinum, more for fun than anything, by killing most everything with Destiny Bond and Kricketune's Perish Song (I doubt Perish Song is going to move Kricketot out of suck tier, but it was amazingly funny). Gengar's miserable defense and stellar speed make it a prime choice for killing any trouble makers that your team can't deal with: throw this out there, DB, and watch the opponent die. Then, Revive and repeat, all the while noting that, with only half health, a Pachirisu could one-hit you and eat a Destiny Bond.
I'd also like to give my opinion on Finneon. If anyone is noticing a trend, yes, I beat Platinum with a lot of competitively useless 'mons. Lumineon throughly surprised me, though. Getting it isn't too hard, as you only need a Good Rod and a little luck fishing, though training it can be a chore. However, you'll find that after it evolves, and you allow it to learn Rain Dance and Surf, you'll be able to outspeed a good portion of the game while being able to really wound all but a few opponents. Even more surprising was its ability to function as an in-game tank, being able to take multiple STAB hits from Cynthia's Togekiss before going down as early as the mid 40's.
My tiering suggestions:
1. Gastly be moved to mid A tier, on account of its ability to deal with team problems through a combination of Destiny Bond and Revive.
2. Finneon be placed low B tier, for its ability to attack with speed after RD, and for above average walling capabilities, as well as its ease of acquisition. Hindered by blah movepool and evolving difficulties.
I'd also like to give my opinion on Finneon. If anyone is noticing a trend, yes, I beat Platinum with a lot of competitively useless 'mons. Lumineon throughly surprised me, though. Getting it isn't too hard, as you only need a Good Rod and a little luck fishing, though training it can be a chore. However, you'll find that after it evolves, and you allow it to learn Rain Dance and Surf, you'll be able to outspeed a good portion of the game while being able to really wound all but a few opponents. Even more surprising was its ability to function as an in-game tank, being able to take multiple STAB hits from Cynthia's Togekiss before going down as early as the mid 40's.
My tiering suggestions:
1. Gastly be moved to mid A tier, on account of its ability to deal with team problems through a combination of Destiny Bond and Revive.
2. Finneon be placed low B tier, for its ability to attack with speed after RD, and for above average walling capabilities, as well as its ease of acquisition. Hindered by blah movepool and evolving difficulties.
Destiny Bond has 5 pp. That's 5 mons max that you can kill before having to go back to Poke Center or using a rare Ether/Elixir etc. And there's no guarantee that the A.I. will attack your half-dead Gengar. If they use a set-up move instead, you've just wasted another PP. Really, I'll rather use my Revives on a Gyarados/Staraptor to intimate them so I can use them as set-up bait to sweep the remaining team.
Eevee deserves at least a B tier, for while some of the possible evolutions (Flareon, Leafeon, Glaceon, and possibly Umbreon) aren't that useful Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Espeon are all great pokemon to have in your arsenal. Espeon can pull the same CM and sweep trick everyone's been talking about and Jolteon and Vaporeons STAB moves are essential to in-game battling.
The Eveelutions almost exclusively (with the exception of Espeon and Psybeam) learn absolutely shit STAB moves until ridiculously high levels. Vaporeon is your best bet for Water Absorb being awesome and getting Surf decently early, but Jolteon's Shock Wave ain't all that great and that TM can be used better by others.
And this is why I said it is a problem solver. It isn't meant to go and DB every Bidoof that waddles by, it functions as an omnicounter for team weaknesses. More often then not, and mind you, I've tested it, the AI trys to go full-on offensive, making it very rare that something won't kill your half-dead Gengar. And you forget that, although my main arguing point was DB, Gengar still has an absurb SpAtk and speed, plus Levitate, which is an amazing ability. Plenty of options to sweep with, as well as its suicide mode to take out problem mons more than justifies my tiering suggestion.
Agreed, just plain Kadabra is awesome, Alakazam is bordering on overkill. You'd be crazy to level up Abra to sixteen though, you can catch a level 20 Kadabra right when you need him, just before Veilstone's Gym.
This is a rehash of Torterra vs. Infernape, frankly higher Sp.Atk and blazing speed make Alakazam the better offensive option by far. Both of their physical defenses suck anyway, so there's really no advantage with Gardevoir's flimsy HP. Also, Grass Knot is generally superior to Thunderbolt, as it lets you hit both water and ground types, and STAB pyschic attacks easily takes care of most flying types you'll encounter outside of like, Mantine and Gyarados.
I'd rank Gallade/Gardevoir somewhere in the B range, they're frankly not A or S material.
Houndour and Gligar are very useful in Platinum. They can learn the elemental fangs, have decent STAB moves (Gligar can be taught Earthquake).
Houndour has a rare, but useful typing and is pretty fast and has high attacks and special attacks. Gligar is a good Attacker with a strong Defence. I used them both my first time round and since Gligar is found early on (just after the 2nd badge) it should be around and A or B. Houndour should be a B as it is available after the 3rd badge (quite late) but can be found one level off evolving (Houndoom!!!)
EDIT: Lickitung and Yanma are good decent. Yanma is caught close to evolving but its typing is abysmal. Likcitung is great as it has excellent HP and all its other stats are just over average (when it evolves at level 33). It can be used as a wall or attacker and can learn almost anything via TM.
Houndour has a rare, but useful typing and is pretty fast and has high attacks and special attacks. Gligar is a good Attacker with a strong Defence. I used them both my first time round and since Gligar is found early on (just after the 2nd badge) it should be around and A or B. Houndour should be a B as it is available after the 3rd badge (quite late) but can be found one level off evolving (Houndoom!!!)
EDIT: Lickitung and Yanma are good decent. Yanma is caught close to evolving but its typing is abysmal. Likcitung is great as it has excellent HP and all its other stats are just over average (when it evolves at level 33). It can be used as a wall or attacker and can learn almost anything via TM.
Lucitung, I have to disagree, I used a Lickylicky, and at lv 33, it was still the weakest member of my team, with very few good level up moves, besides the high-level Power Whip, which came just before the E-4.
Sure, there's Strength and Return, but, they don't pull Licky's weight. (Despite being one of the better pure normals in DDP)
Sure, there's Strength and Return, but, they don't pull Licky's weight. (Despite being one of the better pure normals in DDP)
We're not looking at pure end-game material here. We're looking at mons that are useful throughout the game. That is why mons like Mamoswine (even thou it's incredibily useful ingame) are discussed to be put at a low tier, because you get them so late.
The fact that you can only catch Gastly at a low level at Old Chateau means that you have to raise a mediocre mon without any good offensive options. (He learns his first Special attack at Lv. 33 - Shadow Ball) before then, you're stuck with things like Sucker Punch and Shadow Punch. You also can't get any decent TM's until fairly late in the game. Not to mention that Gastly evolves at Lv. 25, which is a relatively high level to evolve at.
Ghost/Poison are also a terrible attack combination ingame.
Now compare that to something like Abra. You can catch it at a high level as Kadabra, and it learns tons of useful moves (especially early game) such as Psybeam, Grass Knot, Shock Wave, Charge Beam... Abra can sweep teams with Calm Mind. Not to mention that Kadabra is useful even without having to evolve. While with Haunter, the difference between the two are pretty big.
In other words, Gastly should get tier B at most.
I taught it Thunder to annihilate all those bastarding Gyarados' (i have a severe hatred of those). I have recently dropped it for the E4, along with Yanmega, in exchange for my recently trained Garchomp (took me a full day to train from level 20 to level 52) and Giratina. Catching Gible early on is a godsend, i dont know how i beat the E4 on Diamond without it.
All valid points. I'd willing to accept B tier, that seems fair. Though, to be fair as well, having to carry around Magikarp to produce Gyarados is relatively the same thing, trading Intimidate and Dragon Rage early game for Night Shade, Levitate and status, and physical superiority late game for special advantage and DB on Gengar. I still think it could be low A tier, though.
Since Grass Knot is brought up... not that Kadabra/Alakazam won't rape anything in its path ANYWAY, but I don't think it's a good idea to use once-gotten, competitively-useful TMs like Grass Knot and Charge Beam on an in-game run Pokemon; also, Calm Mind isn't available until post-elite 4, unless you trade for it.
Gligar: A Tier
I used a Gliscor when I played through Platinum, and you can get the Razor Fang early enough (After 3rd Gym). It also swept Half the Elite Four while being 5- 6 Levels underlevelled with a moveset of SD / EQ / Ice Fang. Filler can be X Scissor or Night SLash. EQ isnt that necessary either, for In Game you can use Dig, just 10 less power.
Yanma - B Tier. Its quite hard to come by, harder to catch (for me), but if you can hold off evolving and are lucky enough to get Compound Eyes, you can run a simple movbeset of Hypnosis / Bug Buzz / Air Slash / Filler ( Ancient Power, Shadow Ball etc). I ran U-Turn in the last slot, where I Uturned out of Sleeping pokemon to SD Gliscor.
I used a Gliscor when I played through Platinum, and you can get the Razor Fang early enough (After 3rd Gym). It also swept Half the Elite Four while being 5- 6 Levels underlevelled with a moveset of SD / EQ / Ice Fang. Filler can be X Scissor or Night SLash. EQ isnt that necessary either, for In Game you can use Dig, just 10 less power.
Yanma - B Tier. Its quite hard to come by, harder to catch (for me), but if you can hold off evolving and are lucky enough to get Compound Eyes, you can run a simple movbeset of Hypnosis / Bug Buzz / Air Slash / Filler ( Ancient Power, Shadow Ball etc). I ran U-Turn in the last slot, where I Uturned out of Sleeping pokemon to SD Gliscor.
I'd say Turtwig is better than Chimchar. I have had 2 saved games on Platinum, and when i chose Turtwig it was sooo much easier. Maybe its not as a fast as Chimchar but at least it doesn't crumble after one Air Slash. It also learns Earthquake via level up, which as we all know, is great. Unless your against flyers.
Just another note on Houndour: if you catch a female, you can potentially breed it with a Shinx who gets Thunder Fang instead of expending a heart scale, just as a possibility. I'm using a Houndour in my Platinum run-through and it's pretty darn useful - especially with being able to take down Water pokemon w/ Thunder Fang even with their type advantage.
I would move Kricketot up to C for one reason, and one reason only: False Swipe + Sing. The ability to have a good catcher in the game that knows both moves can be really useful. Totally outclassed by the other catchers available post-E4, but Kricketot / tune is cheap and easy to get, and can really help out in getting other guys. He's somewhat useless catching most legendaries due to awful stats, but for catching all the other run-of-the-mill Pokemon on this list, he can at least perform adequately.
I would move Kricketot up to C for one reason, and one reason only: False Swipe + Sing. The ability to have a good catcher in the game that knows both moves can be really useful. Totally outclassed by the other catchers available post-E4, but Kricketot / tune is cheap and easy to get, and can really help out in getting other guys. He's somewhat useless catching most legendaries due to awful stats, but for catching all the other run-of-the-mill Pokemon on this list, he can at least perform adequately.
Scyther is 100% top tier (S)
Catchable at a minimum of level 19, it has a game crushing flying/fighting combination by level 21 without TMs:
Wing attack - this is monstrous with technician and 35 PP
Rock smash - 50% defense drop and perfectly usable at 60 base
That leaves 2 free slots for further utility; take your pick from cut, strength, false swipe and defog. Swords dance is another bonus later.
Advantages over Starly line
* Starly is caught early, and therefore competes with your starter for experience
* Intimidate is an annoying time wasting ability in game
* Scyther offers better utility, and can continue to be useful after game completion
* Brave bird recoil
* It is easier to check for usable IVs on a level 19+ Pokemon
* You can have a synchronizer by the time you reach route 210
The only disadvantage is that the Starly line actually levels up faster until level 47. Experience gain formulae can be found here.
Abra should be at least tier A
It levels up quickly, and Alakazam beats the game by itself. Evolving Abra may be laborious, but teleport goes a long way to make up for this (before you get access to fly). And if that is not enough, synchronize is excellent compensation for its overworld effect.
Magikarp should be tier B at best
Seriously, it has the slowest experience gain formula possible, and you are stuck with a paperweight until level 20. Even then, intimidate will annoy you endlessly because it wastes 2 seconds every time Gyarados is sent out. There are so many better options!
Turtwig - B
The slowest starter; good natural movepool, but bad typing. Speed is an issue because whenever you don't attack first, it slows your completion time.
Gible - B
Levels up slowly, and is relatively weak until it becomes Garchomp. It doesn't even learn earthquake without a TM.
Catchable at a minimum of level 19, it has a game crushing flying/fighting combination by level 21 without TMs:
Wing attack - this is monstrous with technician and 35 PP
Rock smash - 50% defense drop and perfectly usable at 60 base
That leaves 2 free slots for further utility; take your pick from cut, strength, false swipe and defog. Swords dance is another bonus later.
Advantages over Starly line
* Starly is caught early, and therefore competes with your starter for experience
* Intimidate is an annoying time wasting ability in game
* Scyther offers better utility, and can continue to be useful after game completion
* Brave bird recoil
* It is easier to check for usable IVs on a level 19+ Pokemon
* You can have a synchronizer by the time you reach route 210
The only disadvantage is that the Starly line actually levels up faster until level 47. Experience gain formulae can be found here.
Abra should be at least tier A
It levels up quickly, and Alakazam beats the game by itself. Evolving Abra may be laborious, but teleport goes a long way to make up for this (before you get access to fly). And if that is not enough, synchronize is excellent compensation for its overworld effect.
Magikarp should be tier B at best
Seriously, it has the slowest experience gain formula possible, and you are stuck with a paperweight until level 20. Even then, intimidate will annoy you endlessly because it wastes 2 seconds every time Gyarados is sent out. There are so many better options!
Turtwig - B
The slowest starter; good natural movepool, but bad typing. Speed is an issue because whenever you don't attack first, it slows your completion time.
Gible - B
Levels up slowly, and is relatively weak until it becomes Garchomp. It doesn't even learn earthquake without a TM.
I'm having trouble seeing Feebas>Uxie. Uxie's offense is quite mediorce, but at least it can sleep things and take hits easily at base level. And he makes a pretty good filler come E4.
Feebas needs loads and loads of favoritism. You need to first get is...which is a ton of work, feed it kills, give it ****loads berries etc. Uxie can tank, yawn-spam, and potshot (it's offense isn't bad by any means) at base level.
Sure, Uxie comes a lot later...but not being there>sucking, which Feebas does quite a lot until evolving.
Feebas needs loads and loads of favoritism. You need to first get is...which is a ton of work, feed it kills, give it ****loads berries etc. Uxie can tank, yawn-spam, and potshot (it's offense isn't bad by any means) at base level.
Sure, Uxie comes a lot later...but not being there>sucking, which Feebas does quite a lot until evolving.
Actually I should just mention that *anything* with "slow" experience gain should be avoided. All such Pokemon should be limited to tier B at best.
Consider; for the same experience it takes to level Gyarados to 44 (dragon dance), you could have a level 47 Staraptor, a level 48 Scyther or a level 51 Togekiss.
Consider; for the same experience it takes to level Gyarados to 44 (dragon dance), you could have a level 47 Staraptor, a level 48 Scyther or a level 51 Togekiss.
-Being caught early is strictly an advantage, but even if it weren't, Starly and Staravia are everywhere, so you can catch it pretty much any time you want. Scyther has no advantage there.
-Intimidate may waste time, but it's massively useful, especially since ingame trainers don't switch out.
-Defog is worthless on both, and Starly can Fly (which, BTW, is also a pretty good attack this gen). False Swipe is admittedly a point for Scyther, but we'll come back to movepool later. Cut and Rock Smash are nice, but I can always just bag a bidoof for that. They're not exactly hard to come by.
-Brave Bird's 120 power makes this an advantage.
-Usable IVs? This is in-game. 0IVs across the board would be usable. A level 5 Starly can still be checked for high vs. low IVs, which is generally more than sufficient.
-You'd still have to catch a Ralts with the proper nature to use it as a synchronizer, and they're not exactly common and can teleport away. Considering you have 24% chance of getting a +attack or +speed nature (28% if you accept Brave), and a 68% chance of getting a non -speed or -attack nature, it's probably better to just go for it. Of course, Starly's much higher catch rate gives it an edge here.
And you think faster level ups is the only advantage starly has on Scyther? What about Close Combat, which Scyther can only dream it got? Or STAB Return--much better than STAB X-Scissor.
Scyther is certainly A material, perhaps even S. But the Starly line still has quite a few advantages over it, especially late game when Scyther's Tech boost stops being such an advantage.
It depends on preference. You could have e.g. two level 12 Pokemon at an arbitrary stage, or say a level 15 Monferno. If the argument is that you can just catch Staravia at a similar level, then fine.
How is it useful when you just murder everything in one-two hits? Taking in game damage will never matter, unless you are under leveled. Therefore, intimidate is a waste.
Fly has no value in battle, because it can 1) miss and 2) takes 2 turns - another time waster. The argument for HM whoring is not sound either, because Scyther can reasonably run 3 HMs, and there are plenty of Pokemon with access to fly + other HMs (e.g. Giratina).
There is no difference between BB and Scyther's WA. They will both OHKO everything. Therefore, the recoil is time wasting in two ways; directly, and also forcing you to heal more often.
I am not suggesting that you go for great IVs, but certainly something reasonably good (16+ attack and speed) is fine to aim for.
Or you could... trade? Or go on an abra catching spree on the rainy route? It is all optional anyway.
The extra lines from CC's side effect is another time waster. Scyther does enough with its own fighting options, with or without swords dance - consider that CC and rock smash are only used when super effective. Electric pokemon have low defense, or you could just use something else.
No. With Tech, Scyther only needs wing attack. Late game, it also has swords dance access. It sets up and sweeps. They are both S, but Scyther is the most S tier Pokemon in this generation.
I don't get all this IV/EV thing in-game. Its useless. It wastes time, and i defeated the Elite 4 with 6 level 45's, all trained in game, without giving a toss about IV's. Natures can be useful or hinderances, but im not going to go and catch another Gible because its got "a crappy nature". I just get on with it.
McGraw, you make some excellent points. However, this I disagree with:
A level 44 Gyarados can easily sweep the elite four almost single-handedly, with support only for Mr Mime. Can the others do the same at those levels?
A level 44 Gyarados can easily sweep the elite four almost single-handedly, with support only for Mr Mime. Can the others do the same at those levels?
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