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In-game tiers

I really underestimated Jynx. I caught it later than recommend (after the Radio Tower quest) but nonetheless it's a good Pokemon. Took a while to catch (I found it by accident and it just wouldn't stay in the Great Balls) but a natural Ice Punch + 75% accurate sleep move is pretty wow. Obviously it has to do with Powder Snow and it needs a little resource, but it made Lance so incredibly easy. I just put Gyarados to sleep, got it some X-boosts (1 Speed, 1 Special and 2 Defense...the Defense mostly so it didn't die to Gyarados Hyper Beam) and then it just OHKOed everything but Gyarados and Charizard.
- Raticate does fade in comparison to others, but not enough to warrant it in a lower tier imo.

With anything that punches, you can just use the Ice/Fire/Thunderpunch TMs from Goldenrod, so there shouldn't be a reason to rely on weak Powder Snow for important KO's with Jynx, although it has its uses for pp conservation over long routes. In addition, when I trained a Jynx on my original Gold team (five or more year ago, it must be) I found that even at a mere lv 40 it outsped Lance's dragons. When I tried to train my team to 100 it ended up outleveling everything else on the team because of its high utility with Psychic and Ice moves (against Koga, Chuck, Lance, and even part of Will and Karen).
Also, the Goldenrod punches are a good reason why Abra is actually not that hard to train, if you can get it.
 
As long as we don't drag Nino into this discussion, we're okay.

I guess I wanted to add more input to some of the Pokemon that were probably mentioned but I really think these stand out best in-game.

- Gengar is extremely beastly, with Expert Belt and Hypnosis / Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast. Thunderbolt and Focus Blast are relatively easy to get, and Hypnosis is learned via level-up. Perhaps the most "time-consuming" move is Shadow Ball, and it's still a powerful move. IIRC, you can get it fairly early (you need at least 4 badges but nevertheless it's before the fifth gym). He's probably better later in the game, but still a big threat.

- Gyarados is still deadly in terms of Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Ice Fang / Return (or Earthquake or Stone Edge). Gyarados is just nuts and is perhaps one of the more "solid" candidates for a team. Even though Waterfall is rather late in the game and Dragon Dance isn't obtained until level 44, he still gets Ice Fang at 32 and Aqua Tail at 35.

- Infernape is just absolutely nuts. He can tear the Elite Four easily with Close Combat / Fire Blast / Grass Knot alone. He only really struggles agaianst Elite Member #4 and obviously the Champion. He still easily beats the first 2 gyms and at least can burst through Lucario in the third. Sixth gym is usually a snap, 7th is even easier other than Medicham, and the eigth... well, there's always other members of the team.

- Rampardos is definately great, since it's even easy to soft-reset for one. And if you feel that it is "necessary", you can take the female version and try to breed for a more perfect one, even with Rock Slide and Rock Polish. Cranidos is shaky to use since the second, third, and fourth gym tear him apart, but usually after the fifth gym it seems to be easier to grasp. Mold Breaker really helps against facing the Double Admin battles later in the game.

- Floatzel is alright, but usually he gets a bit better once he evolves, but he at least gets Aqua Jet at a decent level (21 does seem to take forever sometimes). Having 85 Speed is pretty good actually as well, and 65 Attack and 60 SpAtk is still not too bad. It's once he's a Floatzel when he gets impressive. Brick Break / Crunch / Ice Fang / Waterfall is definately a great mix of attacks.

- Gastradon is nice thanks to a decent movepool, sporting a good mix of types (Water / Ground), and getting great moves early on (Water Pulse and Mud Bomb). Hidden Power is also a lifesaver if you get the right one as well. Let's not forget Recover, which is deadly to have on him.

- Skuntank (Diamond). Not to rush him into the Elite Four, but he still is not too bad. Explosion is a great move and Flamethrower (by level-up nevertheless) is helpful. Night Slash is a good move to have, especially for the 5th gym. Poison Jab and Sludge Bomb are "meh", but it works. Too bad it doesn't have much else going for him.

There's more, but meh, I don't have a whole lot of time to post more of it.
 
I would like to say that Starly in DP is close to the awesomeness of Nidoran (either) in Yellow. All good moves are learned naturally, unless you want to use Aerial Ace over Brave Bird. Even then, Fly is actually a good option in-game because they never switch. It can't take the first gym, but by the Steel gym it should be a Staraptor with Close Combat. It might be weak to the Ice gym, but does this matter if they can't hurt you? Honestly, Staraptor just gets better over time.

I know its all ready considered top-tier, but its really close to being in a tier of its own, just because it can sweep the game without being ridiculously overleveled.
 
Pachirisu is also underrated. Massive stats early game, and Super Fang later on.

Sweet Kiss, Super Fang, Discharge and whatever else. (I used Quick Attack).

Roark fell to Chimchars Mach Punch
Gardenia was destroyed by a Starly/Chimchar combo.
Maylene got rocked by Starly
Crasher Wake was owned by Roselia and Pachirisu
Fantina crumbled under Bronzor
Byron fell just like his son did to Chimchar
Candice continued Chimchars destruction
Volkner cried after Shelloses STABed EQs.

Elite Four-
Aaron lost to Chimchar
Bertha lost to Roselia and Shellos
Flint lost to Shellos
Lucian lost to Bronzor's Faint Attack and Starly's U-Turn
And Cynthia was pretty easy to counter with my whole team.
 
Misdreavus is actually pretty badass for Pearl players. You can catch her as early as Eternia Forest and isn't too terribly underleveled, if I remember right.

It learns a plethora of good TMs (Thunder/bolt and Psychic come to mind, Magical Leaf as a relearn move when it evolves if you're in dire need of grass) and has good stats for how early you catch it (60/60/60/85/85/85 yes plz). It also learns Pain Split eventually... that's something.

Once it learns Shadow Ball, though, gg.

The only downsides are you're stuck with lol Psywave and Astonish for offense in the beginning (but in all actuality, Astonish isn't terrible after STAB, flinch, and 60 base atk at this point in the game despite 30 base power, it'll still get you by... but just barely). It doesn't take long for Psybeam, though. Also, it takes awhile before you get your Dusk Stone.

I used one for my Pearl run-through, and I was actually pretty pleased. It didn't take much babying for me.
 
I'm pretty sure that nearly every Pokemon playthrough that I've done since 1998 has focused almost exclusively on the starter. You get faster completion times that way. And since the only objective is to beat the game (there are no "ranks" that the game assigns), pretty much the only difference between different playthrough strategies is the amount of time they require you to invest. It has been empirically proven that sticking with one Pokemon throughout the game is the best strategy for fast completion, and if you'd like to prove otherwise you're welcome to try. Employing a level 50 Zapdos or Toxic Lapras doesn't count as diverging from this strategy.

Maybe I used "you" wrong. I meant that for these tiers, I assume that I'm not solo-ing this game with something. It may be the easiest method, but it's also boring as fuck. I know "boring and fun" is subjective, but come on. I wish Pokemon had ranks to measure on, but it doesn't, so this'll have to do.

With this logic, the Ostia and Pherae clubs in FE7 are Mid, the Thieves in High, Erk is Top and everything else is low. Why? Because Erk is probably the best candidate for solo'ing the hell out of this game thanks to 1-2 range, unless you want to go with Marcus I guess (which is possible as well).
 
Maybe I used "you" wrong. I meant that for these tiers, I assume that I'm not solo-ing this game with something. It may be the easiest method, but it's also boring as fuck. I know "boring and fun" is subjective, but come on. I wish Pokemon had ranks to measure on, but it doesn't, so this'll have to do.

With this logic, the Ostia and Pherae clubs in FE7 are Mid, the Thieves in High, Erk is Top and everything else is low. Why? Because Erk is probably the best candidate for solo'ing the hell out of this game thanks to 1-2 range, unless you want to go with Marcus I guess (which is possible as well).
Actually, a Sain or Kent leaving Lyn Hard Mode as a 20/1 Paladin can carry the baton quite nicely after Marcus drops it.

The problem is that Pokemon and FE aren't really comparable in this regard. In Fire Emblem, you're facing droves of enemies with a band containing multiple members. However, Pokemon is simply a series of many consecutive one-on-one encounters. Also consider that in FE, taking hits is pretty much inevitable so defensive stats (and avoid) have to be considered. However, because of Pokemon's battle mechanic, you don't need to cover a lot of stuff on the defensive end meaning that a varied team isn't necessary. And because only one guy will be on the field at any given time, it doesn't make sense for someone to be hogging experience. Whenever you invest experience in something, any time that it spends on the bench is, in essence, wasted. This is completely different from FE where while Kent is running ahead to smash the boss, Erk can pick off anything he can outrange while Oswin mops up any stragglers. You have multiple units on the field fighting multiple engagements without your direction, so it makes sense to spread them out. However, in Pokemon, only one combatant takes part in each engagement, and a level 70 Nidoking usually does the job better than a level 50 Nidoking and Blastoise. Blastoise is hogging experience and thus detracting from Nidoking's combat ability without contributing anything to the engagements that Nidoking fights. The only thing he can do is replace Blastoise in engagements, and you'd be hard pressed to find any in-game tasks that a level 50 Blastoise can perform better than a level 70 Nidoking.

Also, consider that switching Pokemon in mid-battle is something that is really only strategic during long trainer battles (like gyms and the Elite Four). In these cases, switching makes it impossible for you to utilize stat buffers, and stat buffing items are so cheap that there's really no reason not to spam them.

The one thing that raising multiple Pokemon means is that you need to gain more experience to spread among more party members. That means more battling, and possibly more grinding against wild Pokemon. And by my definition, killing wild Pokemon to get experience points is not fun at all. Fun is being able to beat the game without having to waste time fighting one-sided engagements against Machokes and Gravelers because my highest-level party member is still too underleveled to beat the first member of the Elite Four. Suppose that in Lyn mode FE, our goal was to get to get units to level 20 (because of some GC/Wii-like transfer mechanic). Raising one unit would be fun. I know from experience that Kent or Sain can reach level 20 simply by killing everything, and doing the same with Erk wouldn't be that hard. However, raising multiple units to level 20 would mean Lundgren abuse, which is about as fun as grinding against wild Pokemon.

The one point that you could argue on is PP, but Pokemon centers are placed with high frequency. RBY gives you more than enough PP restoration items, and every game after has renewable PP restoring items in the form of berries. In fact, the only time you'll find yourself needing those items is the Elite Four, which your ethers and elixirs should be able to handle. A single elixir should be more than enough to get you through Victory Road if at all necessary.
 
This is a great thread, by the way. Could we put the lists we're currently working on on the front page, so that people don't have to hunt through the thread to find them?

It's been a while since I've played GSC, but I do remember that I never used Ho-Oh in any game. Dunno why, I just never did. I did, however, use a level 70 Lugia in my Gold version. Go figure.

Also, Breloom is ridiculous in RSE. Most definitely one of the best pokemon you can use, even without Spore (y'know, if you don't want to level your Shroomish up to level 54). Just keep him away from flying moves, and you'll be fine.
 
I personally don't grind levels on wild Pokemon other than maybe to make something that is slightly underleveled catch up to my main party, and then I'm highly aware I'm being biased towards them. I don't solo the game with them because...that is not my idea of fun. I like using more than one Pokemon. One Pokemon may be the very most efficient thing overall though.

So instead of continuing to trying to make it completely unaccountable that you're using only one Pokemon, I'll instead propose a new abstract standard.

Two of your team slots are reserved for HM whores. The rest can be either your main team or more HM whores. Both have their pro's and cons. You either have 1, 2, 3 or 4 Pokemon to use and fight with, and with the spots you don't fight with, you can put more HM slaves, or leave it open so you can catch Pokemon in it, or get eggs, or whatever.

While using 1 Pokemon is obviously quite efficient, it also overcentralizes the tier system, so I'd prefer if each of 1, 2, 3 and 4 fighting Pokemon on your team was given equal weight.

Your Pokemon's overall value is its average (or combined) value of being your only fighter, one of two fighters, one of three or one of four fighters. You'll notice that a Pokemon such as Poliwag is nearly worthless if you use only one fighter, because to even get to this point of getting Poliwag you will need an early Pokemon like your starter, and he will be thoroughly drilling Poliwag into the ground in terms of battle worth. However, if you have 4 party members you've been dividing EXP between, Poliwag will only be ~7 levels below your average at most. So while his joining situation compared to its opponents are about the same, he is relatively better off compared to your own party.
 
Two of your team slots are reserved for HM whores. The rest can be either your main team or more HM whores. Both have their pro's and cons. You either have 1, 2, 3 or 4 Pokemon to use and fight with, and with the spots you don't fight with, you can put more HM slaves, or leave it open so you can catch Pokemon in it, or get eggs, or whatever.

While that was usually true, in D/P only one is really needed. The only HM you use often are Rock Smash, Strength, Rock Climb and Surf. Waterfall is only needed once or twice after the last gym, Cut is used like once and Defog isn't necessary at all, neither is Fly, but it is very useful and convenient.

Bibarel can use Rock Smash, Strength, Rock Climb, Surf (though putting Surf on it isn't unrecommended. Try Gastrodon or Floatzel) and Waterfall (Floatzel uses it better).

Staraptor uses Fly wonderfully as people ingame rarely switch out.

And Cut can be on a Lv3 Bidoof (which, BTW can also learn Rock Smash, Rock Climb, and Strength.

P.S. If you don't want to train an HM Slave for the E4, you could always catch one of the poke's in Victory Road. They may be a bit under leveled but it serves its purpose.

P.P.S. After the Mount Coronet event, you can go and get Azelf, Uxie, and if your up for it, chase Mesprit.
 
Similar to my post in the FRLG thread, I think a priority list of gym leaders might be useful in determining team slots. You want to be prepared for more powerful trainers rather than tbe less threatning ones.

GSC
1.Whitney-Clefairy is lol, but Miltank 's attract is annoying for male Pokemon, only weak to one uncommon attack type with good defense anyway and can sweep your team with Rollout.

2. Clair- One of her Dragonairs probably carries a supereffective move to whatever Pokemon is using Ice attacks, not to mention that you essentially cannot type trump Kingdra. Decent levels too.

3.Morty- Hypnosis is an issue, as is the lack of decent Dark types available to this point. At least you can use ground types since Levitate doesn't exist yet.

4. Jasmine- Mainly it's the fact that steel has so many resists, not to mention steelix has such high defense that ground and fighting aren't so effective anyway. She will use sunny day to kill its water weakness as well.

5. Chuck- is harder to type trump than the leaders below him, due to relative rarity of Psychic/Flying types., not like you necessairly need to anyway.

6. Falkner- Starters not named Chikorita have a pretty easy time with Falkner (despite annoying accuracy loss effects) you can also just catch a Geodude and Rock throw him to death.

7. Pryce- Actually has lower levels than Jasmine despite appearing later . He can sort of deal damage, but Ice has so many weaks you likely have something that can take him down easily.

8. Bugsy- Kakuna and Metapod are extremely pathetic. Scyther is potentially dangerous, though Cyndaquil starters and geodude users can get rid of it easily.

Feel free to discuss any possible changes, though please no "lol I beat them all they so ez!" posts. I have lists ready for RSE and DP but I'll post them later.
 
Oh god, I remember trying to take down Miltank the first time I played gold (I was one of those people who only used 1 pokemon; it was quilava). I got my ass kicked so many times, it still hurts today.

If we consider that each pokemon is competing for one spot on your team out of 4, then it DOES matter is X>Y if X and Y are competing for the same spot on the team. E.G. If I pick Piplup, not only am I not able to get Chimchar or Turtwig, but, because it takes up a spot, I'm also not going to get Buizel, Bronzor, Gyrados or Shellos for battling purposes. Although it's a good pokemon, why should I use Piplup if it prevents the use of other pokemon who work better? The same thing could be said about pokemon like Pidgey and Murkrow (unfortunately).
 
Picking one starter indeed directly implies not picking another, but all three of them have the same problem and yet you are obliged to pick one and you would be a fool not to use them, since they are the best.

Sure, picking Squirtle for your team likely means Staryu is left out, which makes Staryu worse (I see a direct connection between "good" and "likely to be used"). But if Squirtle is X and Staryu is Y, then Pokemon Z still doesn't become better because of this no matter what. Which can be extended to the fact that no other Pokemon become better than this, and since this is all relative, that means neither Squirtle nor Staryu are hurt by it.
 
I'm not saying it about starters in general, I was referring to Piplup spefically (also applies to Treecko and, to a lesser extent, Totodile). Piplup is much more easily replaced than Chimchar (there's only one other fire pokemon until national dex, and ponyta sucks) or even Torterra (who only really has to compete with Roselia). ALSO, let's take your example, X is Squirtle and Y is Staryu. If we factor in Z as another psychic pokemon who's not in competition with squirtle (e.g. Zam), Z automatically becomes 'better' in a sense because it no longer has competition with Y. Consider this; if there's only one possible dark pokemon (let's say we're referring to emerald), is that pokemon 'better' than if there's a range you can choose from, each of which out shines the original?
EDIT: When I say better, I mean better for use when putting the pokemon into tiers
EDIT2: Here's a fire emblem comparison; If legault was the only theif available in the game, would his tier go up?
 
It's difficult to measure. In FE, this argument is easily defied because class or weapon type do not define niche: it's dancing, killing, thieving and healing. That is easy to argue.

Type in Pokemon, however, matters much more, but still it all comes down to being good or not at fighting, with other niches being HMs pretty much. Otherwise there's not much other than Chansey's Softboiling or something.

Still, if both X and Y are better than Z at fighting, Z should not be placed over Y simply because X exists.
 
Type matters a great deal, actually. Let me tell you of what happened the second time I tried beating sapphire. Back then, I really wasn't very good at levelling. At the start of the game, I generally choose at most, three pokemon to train, since any makes it take lots of time to train. This was back when I had no idea what base stats were, so I was trying pokemon out to see what they were like. My pokemon were Treecko, Poocheyena (I know, so I sucked) and Ralts. Fast forward to the 7th gym; I got my ASS wiped out for most of it; 4 of my pokemon were killed incredibly quickly. However, due to Mightyena being typed dark, and the combined efforts of my other pokemon to take out solrock, I managed to come off with a victory, since back then, Lunatone's movepool consisted of calm mind, hypnosis, protect (I believe) and psychic.

Before we go on, I'd like a clear definition of what tiers refers to; is it how useful a pokemon is to a team? How much they contribute? etc?
 
A single copy of a flying/levitate, dark, normal, ghost, steel, ground, or flashfire, waterabsorb, dryskin, voltabsorb pokemon can help somewhat even if they are 20 levels under your current steamroller.
Nullifying a battle with immunity may not be the fastest victory, but it would give respite.
 
I just want to give GSC Jynx some more support. When you catch her before the Radio Tower (which is like a giant Rare Candy for her), she's easily leveled up before Clair and proceeds to rape afterwards.
 
*Pumps some life support into the thread*
Okay, could we please change the definition of what makes a pokemon good in a tier sense. There's a few things I believe should be taken into account IMO;

- Competition for typing; This only applies to pokemon who are completely outclassed and have nothing viable to give that the other can't e.g. Marill V Wailmer in ADV. Marill learns the same HMs as Wailmer, gets essentially the same moves, deals much more damage on the physical side and comes about 5 gyms earlier. It also evolves level 18; you essential have to compare Azumarill to wailmer. There's really no good reason to use Wailmer over Marill. Therefore, Wailmer uses up a moveslot resource which could be used for Marill.

- Competition for time and experience; I'm pretty sure everyone understands 2 lvl 40 pokemon > 4 lvl 30 pokemon. Training one or two pokemon at a time is pretty easy, but taking on 3 or more new pokemon at a time is crazy hard for giving exp. Competition between other pokemon you can catch at the time should also be noted, e.g. at the beginning of D/P, you can use shinx, starly, budew, magikarp, kricketune, your starter and bidoof. If you choose even 3 of these, you either let them all become underlevelled, or you essentially grind for an hour. If you prioritize which pokemon you prefer to get, you essentially have to miss out a few; most likely the first to drop would be Kricketune. Therefore, getting it uses up a share of the early game EXP (which is very important).
 
Thing is about competition in typing is that there are way more types than there are moveslots on the team. I guess you'd kind of have to weight the types themselves in terms of their value in given version.
 
Before we go on, I'd like a clear definition of what tiers refers to; is it how useful a pokemon is to a team? How much they contribute? etc?

The best Pokemon would be one that requires the minimum effort to do the most needed work for you. I think that is a pretty good overall standard definition that from there on needs interpretation.
 
Well, here is my 2 cents:

Brilliant:

Chimchar
Piplup
Turtwig
Shinx
Bidoof
Starly
Zubat
(If you can) Croagunk
Quagsire


Good:

Gastly
Dialga
Palkia
Geodude
Onix
Steelix


And the rest....


The starters are obviously going to be your strongest. Shinx and Starly are brilliant throughout the whole game, as is Bidoof slaving. Croagunk evolves into Toxicroak early after you get him and Zubat can get to Crobat in this game.

Geodude, Gastly and Onix are unavailable to full forms without trading, with the exception of Onix, as Steelix can be found ingame. However, it isn't worth going out of the way for. Dialga and Palkia are late on, and strongly leveled.
 
Geodude, Gastly and Onix are unavailable to full forms without trading, with the exception of Onix, as Steelix can be found ingame. However, it isn't worth going out of the way for. Dialga and Palkia are late on, and strongly leveled.

I don't know about Steelix. If you want a Lucario, you hae the chance to get a Steelix as well, as they are essentially found in the same place.
 
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