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Move Infestation (and trapping moves in general)
- Thread starter Banryu
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Great first post. Honestly I don't know if Floatzal and Infernape might just be better off attacking things, but it's definitely an interesting option, and a great surprise tactic for Mew.
Doesn't Floatzel also get Baton Pass? I don't know if the effects of trapping moves can be passed, but it might be an interesting alternative to U-Turn either way.
Poison Heal Gliscor @ Toxic Orb with Sand Tomb/Protect/Sub/Toxic solves the common self-healing problem. Though it lacks a sleep-inducing move and the accuracy of Infestation.
Thanks. I agree in regards to Floatzel and Infernape. They usually are better off just attacking things, especially considering their frailty. The main selling point of using either of those 2 for this kind of set would be to lure out a wall or counter by making your opponent think you're using an offensive set. Then you can sweep more easily with a similar offensive Pokemon later. Even the initial sub on the switch can give the impression that you're a sweeper or attacker just looking to ease prediction a bit for your frail sweeper. By the time you used your trapping move your opponent wouldn't be able to switch out until the 4-5 turns were over.
Mew is probably better suited to this task though, with its superior bulk and greater variety of options.
Floatzel can get Baton Pass through breeding. I've looked into whether or not partial trapping moves can be passed and I haven't been able to find a definitive answer. If the trapping could be passed it would definitely be a boon for a Pokemon (like Floatzel) who had access to a trapping move and BP.
Interesting. I'll see if I can find out more about trap-passing. If the nerf to Mean Look in Gen 5 is any indication, I'm guessing that it's not possible, though I definitely think it warrants checking.
Apart from that, this brings up something else that I've been wondering from all the Trapping sets in the thread: How many of these Pokemon are actually WELL-SUITED for trapping?
Of the ones listed, I feel like Jumpluff, Dusknoir, and Mew are some of the better users of this tactic; even though Tentacruel and Dragonite have other roles they can perform equally well (or even better), they also sort of work to remove their counters and such with their own trapping sets. Heatran is also good, but that mainly comes from the sheer power of Magma Storm.
If we could, I'd like people to start considering not only trapping sets that COULD be run, but also sets for Pokemon that are actually well-suited to the role-- For instance, guys like Gliscor and Hippowdon are probably better for tanking/walling/support, Goodra is better on offense or as a tank, etc.
EDIT: Modified the OP a bit more to encourage this sort of discussion. Also added a few new Infestation sets to showcase, but since I remembered Toxic's nerf, I'm leaving it out of the slashes on the sets.
Apart from that, this brings up something else that I've been wondering from all the Trapping sets in the thread: How many of these Pokemon are actually WELL-SUITED for trapping?
Of the ones listed, I feel like Jumpluff, Dusknoir, and Mew are some of the better users of this tactic; even though Tentacruel and Dragonite have other roles they can perform equally well (or even better), they also sort of work to remove their counters and such with their own trapping sets. Heatran is also good, but that mainly comes from the sheer power of Magma Storm.
If we could, I'd like people to start considering not only trapping sets that COULD be run, but also sets for Pokemon that are actually well-suited to the role-- For instance, guys like Gliscor and Hippowdon are probably better for tanking/walling/support, Goodra is better on offense or as a tank, etc.
EDIT: Modified the OP a bit more to encourage this sort of discussion. Also added a few new Infestation sets to showcase, but since I remembered Toxic's nerf, I'm leaving it out of the slashes on the sets.
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Ive been toying with spiritomb as an infestation + WoW combo to whittle opponenets physical threats or walls. Its a damn shame spiritomb didnt get phantom force or knock off, as the trapping set could have made real use of both.
anyway, the set is
252 HP 252def
Impish (leftovers)
infiltrator
WoW
Infestation
protect
foul play
Spiritomb makes a great trapper with good defences and if you can cripple something physical, or trap a wall you are well on your way to annoying the ever loving hell out of your opponent.
anyway, the set is
252 HP 252def
Impish (leftovers)
infiltrator
WoW
Infestation
protect
foul play
Spiritomb makes a great trapper with good defences and if you can cripple something physical, or trap a wall you are well on your way to annoying the ever loving hell out of your opponent.
I've actually been trying an Infestation Jumpluff set, and, surprisingly, it works really, really well. (Mine focuses more on stalling and wearing down my opponents rather than trapping my opponents into something unfavorable for a set-up, but I suppose either works)
If Whimsicott doesn't get Infestation when it comes over from Pokebank, Jumpluff finally has something that doesn't make it an inferior Whimsicott. I actually managed to out-stall a Klefki that was abusing the Thunder Wave/Swagger combo. I managed to get a Sub up through the confusion (since I didn't want to be paralyzed), and that was all I needed to ruin Klefki's day. I gotta say, the Infiltrator buff is beautiful, not to mention the buff to the residual damage from trapping moves.
But, knowing Jumpluff's luck, Whimsicott will get Infestation. Buuuut, Jumpluff has slightly better defenses, but Whimsicott has better speed and typing. It would be rather interesting if Sceptile got access to Infestation, though it lacks Infiltrator like the two cotton fluffs have.
If Whimsicott doesn't get Infestation when it comes over from Pokebank, Jumpluff finally has something that doesn't make it an inferior Whimsicott. I actually managed to out-stall a Klefki that was abusing the Thunder Wave/Swagger combo. I managed to get a Sub up through the confusion (since I didn't want to be paralyzed), and that was all I needed to ruin Klefki's day. I gotta say, the Infiltrator buff is beautiful, not to mention the buff to the residual damage from trapping moves.
But, knowing Jumpluff's luck, Whimsicott will get Infestation. Buuuut, Jumpluff has slightly better defenses, but Whimsicott has better speed and typing. It would be rather interesting if Sceptile got access to Infestation, though it lacks Infiltrator like the two cotton fluffs have.
This is one of the reasons I really believe that Floatzel has business running Whirlpool this gen. It has enough speed and offensive presence to force a switch, and then it can hit the incoming Pokemon with Whirlpool, stall out two turns or so with a combination of Sub and BU/Protect and then the opponent is usually within KO range thanks to Whirlpool. It could also use Dig/Dive if you really want to draw out yet another turn of damage.
I really like the concept of using an assault vest combined with infestation and power-up punch (or some other attack with boosting capability) on something really bulky.
I had written the same idea one page before, though I didn't articulate it as much as you; Anyway, a few points:
1. Imho, protect is mandatory; If you only use sub, you actually lose hp faster than your opponent. It also enables you to scout the move if your opponent switches in a scarfer.
2.I would rather use the trapping move on the first turn instead of sub because that means one turn earlier damage for the opponent and one turn later for you, as well as that you can just change out without having taken damage should the opponent switch in a faster mon.
3. The pokemon NEEDS to be able to force switches; So, it should have at least one hard-hitting move.
4. As mentioned in two points above, the worst that can happen is if your opponent switches in something faster; Also, damage unfortunately doesn't rack up very fast; Therefore, hazard support, like toxic spikes and sticky web makes this a lot stronger.
Phemeto: Thanks for the info on all the trapping moves being buffed.
The defensive SubRoost Moltres in the strategydex could consider Fire Spin over Flamethrower with the buff.
That set is all about stalling with Pressure and residual damage anyway and Steels would still be covered.
On the subject of fast Pokemon with trapping moves there's also Accelgor who has Infestation.
It has many of the combos we've been theorymoning about including Acid Spray, Yawn, U-turn, Baton Pass, and Recover (strangely enough).
But a metagame with Gale Wing Talonflames running around probably won't be friendly to the speedy bug.
The defensive SubRoost Moltres in the strategydex could consider Fire Spin over Flamethrower with the buff.
That set is all about stalling with Pressure and residual damage anyway and Steels would still be covered.
On the subject of fast Pokemon with trapping moves there's also Accelgor who has Infestation.
It has many of the combos we've been theorymoning about including Acid Spray, Yawn, U-turn, Baton Pass, and Recover (strangely enough).
But a metagame with Gale Wing Talonflames running around probably won't be friendly to the speedy bug.
You're right CQC. I didn't read through thoroughly enough. We're in agreement on the general idea then. I see your point on trapping first. It's a better idea in general. The only reason you'd sub first is if you weren't sure if your opponent would switch and you didn't want to take massive damage if they stayed in and attacked. I suppose you could also check team preview before the battle for threats to your fast trapper and plan accordingly.
Protect is also a good call in order to preserve HP. The purpose I had in mind was more about crippling a counter for another one of your sweepers. After the counter is effectively neutralized you don't need your trapper as much if you can set up a sweep with a different Pokemon. Your trapper could be low on HP or fainted as long as it did its job. If you run strong moves to force switches it could detract from the longevity of your set. Your opponent thinking you carry strong moves should force more switches since your priority is trapping, not sweeping or wall breaking.
Hazards are definitely key, as extra passive damage that you don't have to use a turn setting up (with your trapper, ie Toxic/WoW) would help a ton. Sticky Web could cover speedy threats.
Banryu is right though. We should focus on which Pokemon can actually run this kind of set effectively. Accelgor does sound good if you can get past Talonflame.
i really don't see any potential in multi turn trapping moves unless the get a priority boost so they can "outrun" switches .
Say, this may be a dumb question, but if I use infestation or another trapping move, and then switch, is the foe still trapped? I can't remember if it keeps going after a switch. If it does you can switch into a safe counter and hit them while they are trapped.
Also, do multiple trapping moves stack?(Like Infestation plus fire spin or wrap?
Also, do multiple trapping moves stack?(Like Infestation plus fire spin or wrap?
no, and no.
However, you can switch out while it's active while the opponent can't, so you have at least a secured favorable match-up.
While neither of the grass/ghost types (which was my first thought) can learn Infestation, I wonder if you can breed Wrap to one of them.
Yes, but binding band is generally no longer, or should I say even less, useful.
The effect was 1/16 Hp damage became 1/8 Hp damage, but now since it defaults as 1/8 Hp, it becomes 1/6 Hp, which I assume is less useful then passive recovery or extra damage on other attacks, given that it no longer doubles damage.
What about something that can recover tho? I mean you are giving up life orb bur i think it could be usefull if you run sets with ethier subsitute or protect + Binding band.
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