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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

jackm said:
Kabutops @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Razor Shell
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear

Hoo boy. This thing is insane. Between its nice typing and surprising bulk, it's relatively resistant to revenge killing (it takes less than 70% from Lando-T's 252+ CB Brave Bird). This gives it a circumstantial advantage versus other Shell Smashers like Gyarados-Mega, which gets smashed by BB or Pixispeed. Meanwhile, its excellent coverage and power mean that it can manhandle offense once set up. Thanks to its STAB on Rock Blast, it can even do a number on stall. After a smash, it 2HKO's Intimidate Suicune after SR! FYI, the EV's are tailored to outspeed CS Adamant Terrakion while maintaining as much bulk as possible (and, of course, an odd HP number).
Click to expand...

I ran almost this, only with a Focus Sash over the White Herb and Ice Shard over Razor Shell. (I wanted it as a Talonflame-Landorus-Therian answer that had other uses, was the initial impetus) It hits really hard, enough so that it can put a lot of pressure on Unaware Suicune that expect to casually take it apart but far too many things can inflict serious damage on it before a Shell Smash, let alone after, and the meta leans sufficiently towards bulky/stall-y that it can rarely pull off the full sweep, especially since more offensive teams will often have an Extreme Speeder of some kind to kill it even through an Ice Shard.

Upon further thought Terrakion running this would probably perform a lot better, even with no STAB on Razor Shell. It's faster (And therefore can invest less into Speed because Shell Smash), bulkier, has more base attack and has a somewhat more useful typing. I suspect in practice it would still be underwhelming, though, as stall will just have good Unaware choices and offense will probably pack Extreme Speeders.
 
DarkeKnight said:
Coverage doesn't really matter with that set tbh. After one boost, literally all you need is Gear Grind. Technician boosted STAB Gear Grind is an absolute monster. Anyone who's played STABMons can attest to that. And Rock Smash is an awesome addition. It 2HKOs Heatran, which was the best counter to it. There is literally no wall in the tier that appreciates a defence drop.

Also, in case of Lando-T:
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 262-309 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 326-386 (102.1 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only problem it actually has is lack of priority.
Click to expand...
So with any chip damage. ANY. SR made it like a 67% if correct (was addressed in another post). A single hit while its setting up? Again, thats all lant needs. TBH I would run even more hp, there aren't that many scarfmons floating around (the most relevant one being heatran) and the extra bulk can help it tank more attacks. I would not call it lant proof at all because it just takes too much from BB.

Nmone said:
I can vouch for this set. It's a REALLY good suicide lead for HO teams(imo). MB+its base 110spe it's almost guaranteed to set-up rocks. taunt not only shuts down opposing Leads/hazard setter. But also, allows it to bypass magic bounce user-or pokes that think they can use lati as setup fodder after Draco. But I personally use Heat wave>Glare tho. Just for FF Mons(KO'd tons of genesects who's now running Sacred fire+FF from entei).

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
Inherits from Zoroark.

This set, is just amazing. Illusion gengar catches TONS of things off-guard. I even sometimes lead with it, and either get an earlier sweep, or I Heavily dent my opponent's team before they realized they F'd up. good pokes to disguise him as(imo) would be Land-T(people fear the hell out of this mon, and would usually switch out). Greninja(This one is just funny to me, you have no idea HOW many times people have used Espeed, endeavor, CC/HJK on this guy). Shadow ball& Focus blast is literally all it needs. Especially after NP. Even Chansey can't handle this beast.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Substitute is there for it to better wallbreak safely. And it finds many opportunities to do so. I am aware of its flaws, but its Pros and the awards that comes with it. Is just fantastic. I think this should be rank. :)

I'll also upload some battles of this thing in action ofc. coming soon
Click to expand...
Its a decent set, and I think its probably the best illusion set. Personally I prefer leftovers since you can run nasty plot, and LO makes it hard to disguise as lant since you get fucked by LO recoil when you go for shadow ball. If you do it as...say...pinsir, people might think you are a noob for one turn, which is all you need.
People have been hyping houndoom for this type of set, but I say this one is superior for the immunities it boasts. Tons of priority rains down on a lot of HO mons, and the one immunity is all you need to fuck with one of those HO teams. I like it.

Houndoom is much better in a drought set. Why? You get base 150 power eruptions off of base 140 spa, with a choice specs boost, and you can switch to fire blast when solar power takes you under 70% health. AWESOME! In all honesty, this has some serious wallbreaking potential.
 
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well, The reason I prefer LO>BSludge/Lefties is because (obviously) I'm an offensive player. I want to hit as hard as possible, break down as many pokes as I can before it goes down. And honestly, it's amusing watching your opponent struggle against this. Seriously, this set can single handedly have your opponent on their toes, switching/shuffling, and it has a field goal against HO/stall teams. But yea, Ig it's personal preference.

Also, disguising it as Tran is good too.
 
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So gathering replays related to Arena Trap was boring and bad and unfun for all parties involved, so I stopped partway through and instead decided to give a Protean gimmick team a try, primarily on a suspicion that Protean is kind of dumb to be universally available. The team initially struggled a bit with stall-y threats/teams, until I realized Kecleon's access to Trick can be a complete shut-down of a stallmon, at which point the team became considerably more reliable. A lot more reliable than I'd really expect a gimmick team to be, honestly.

I'm of mixed feelings as to whether Protean ought to be suspected or something or not, because on the one hand it can do evil things to offense teams and doesn't have to do much to adapt itself to dealing with stall teams, and on the other hand it's not as overwhelming as I'd initially thought it might be. It's certainly the case that Protean provides almost everything a Pokemon could want -between Kecleon and Greninja you've got three out of the four hazards, Kecleon has Recover, they can both donate competent Physical or Special moves, and Protean reduces the user down to its statline for determining whether it's a good recipient or not, basically, barring that Mega Evolutions shouldn't do the Protean thing. (Barring gimmicks, I guess)

In any event, here's replays of my Protean team, which has performed better on the ladder than my "real" team, especially once I got the stall problem handled. There's still the occasional threat that I have to act on immediately or risk being swept (I just recently fought a Mega Venusaur inheriting from Masqeurain, and it came very close to sweeping me), but it's honestly been a very effective team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223691424

First match. Not a great player, honestly, but it's still an OK illustration. I later discovered that I'd failed to set EVs on Alakazam, and yet look how it performs here!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223698337

In which my opponent is a gentleman and a scholar. (Or a gentlewoman, either or)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223703817

In which I discover that Kecleon does get Stealth Rock, meaning Protean has the full range of hazards available to it, and adjust accordingly.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223704729

In which Protean is really, really good.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223709304

In which one of the only flaws with a Protean gimmick team rears its head: no hazard management.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223757598

Victory!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223913918

In which my opponent has two Protean Pokemon themselves.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223916167

VS Akumeoy, in which he identifies the gimmick on his own partway through... and loses.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223918763

Ripping teams in half still.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223920586

A more Stall team that comes apart at the seams. My opponent forfeits when they have 3 Pokemon left and I have 5, all in good condition and only one moderately injured, with Rocks on both sides.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223952852

Trick continues to let me push right through Stallmons (My opponent left the instant I Tricked a Choice Band onto their Quagsire-Chansey), even when much of my team was taken down by Choiced Hyper Voice spam. I think this battle also marks the point where my Protean team overtakes my main account in ladder rank. (I was definitely ahead of myself, anyway)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223954538

In which my opponent forfeits fairly early. To be fair, I'd crippled their Aegislash and KOed two of their other Pokemon, all without Raikou so much as switching.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223955437

A balanced team that's nifty, but my opponent ultimately forfeits. To be fair, it's partly on the strength of Extreme Speed Mega Altaria.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223957430

Opening with my opponent switching in a Blissey on my Trick Choice Specs. Note that there was a fairly lengthy pause on my opponent's end after this. Oddly, the game gave me the warning that I might be trapped with Blissey without me even attempting to switch, giving away that it had Arena Trap. Also for some reason Raikou interprets me clicking Stealth Rock to mean "re-Trick them". Annoying, and probably cost me the match.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223961340

I got tired of Alakazam's Physical frailty, so I replaced it with Espeon, which hits slightly less hard and is a bit slower, but is all-around more bulky. I considered going with Keldeo, actually. In any event the match comes down very close to the wire -and I'm annoyed with myself for not opening with Trick, which I was leaning toward doing... and didn't. Would've let me get Stealth Rock up and just been good in general.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224081534

Good conversation afterward. Close match too, though I pulled through in the end. I really should've acted quicker to get the Trick onto Suicune though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224085807

Came this close to being swept by Mega Venusaur inheriting from Masquerain. Very nasty for a team that isn't running a Talonflame inheritor. Also my opponent gives up a bit prematurely.

Only partially related: Alakazam really has been crapped on enormously over the years. Here I can fix its issues with movepool and typing all in one go, focusing on its excellent Speed and Special Attack, and ultimately I replace it with Espeon because even though Espeon is slower and less hard hitting it's noticeably more bulky. Why did they have to make Mega Alakazam so lame? I also considered Keldeo, and may use it yet, due to its Stealth Rock resistance and overall even better statline, but part of the appeal of Alakazam/Espeon is that they outrun Gengar, which Keldeo does not, so I dunno.

Also Haxorus is amazing inheriting from Kecleon. First meta I've used Haxorus in, actually.
 
Ghoul King said:
So gathering replays related to Arena Trap was boring and bad and unfun for all parties involved, so I stopped partway through and instead decided to give a Protean gimmick team a try, primarily on a suspicion that Protean is kind of dumb to be universally available. The team initially struggled a bit with stall-y threats/teams, until I realized Kecleon's access to Trick can be a complete shut-down of a stallmon, at which point the team became considerably more reliable. A lot more reliable than I'd really expect a gimmick team to be, honestly.

I'm of mixed feelings as to whether Protean ought to be suspected or something or not, because on the one hand it can do evil things to offense teams and doesn't have to do much to adapt itself to dealing with stall teams, and on the other hand it's not as overwhelming as I'd initially thought it might be. It's certainly the case that Protean provides almost everything a Pokemon could want -between Kecleon and Greninja you've got three out of the four hazards, Kecleon has Recover, they can both donate competent Physical or Special moves, and Protean reduces the user down to its statline for determining whether it's a good recipient or not, basically, barring that Mega Evolutions shouldn't do the Protean thing. (Barring gimmicks, I guess)

In any event, here's replays of my Protean team, which has performed better on the ladder than my "real" team, especially once I got the stall problem handled. There's still the occasional threat that I have to act on immediately or risk being swept (I just recently fought a Mega Venusaur inheriting from Masqeurain, and it came very close to sweeping me), but it's honestly been a very effective team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223691424

First match. Not a great player, honestly, but it's still an OK illustration. I later discovered that I'd failed to set EVs on Alakazam, and yet look how it performs here!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223698337

In which my opponent is a gentleman and a scholar. (Or a gentlewoman, either or)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223703817

In which I discover that Kecleon does get Stealth Rock, meaning Protean has the full range of hazards available to it, and adjust accordingly.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223704729

In which Protean is really, really good.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223709304

In which one of the only flaws with a Protean gimmick team rears its head: no hazard management.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223757598

Victory!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223913918

In which my opponent has two Protean Pokemon themselves.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223916167

VS Akumeoy, in which he identifies the gimmick on his own partway through... and loses.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223918763

Ripping teams in half still.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223920586

A more Stall team that comes apart at the seams. My opponent forfeits when they have 3 Pokemon left and I have 5, all in good condition and only one moderately injured, with Rocks on both sides.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223952852

Trick continues to let me push right through Stallmons (My opponent left the instant I Tricked a Choice Band onto their Quagsire-Chansey), even when much of my team was taken down by Choiced Hyper Voice spam. I think this battle also marks the point where my Protean team overtakes my main account in ladder rank. (I was definitely ahead of myself, anyway)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223954538

In which my opponent forfeits fairly early. To be fair, I'd crippled their Aegislash and KOed two of their other Pokemon, all without Raikou so much as switching.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223955437

A balanced team that's nifty, but my opponent ultimately forfeits. To be fair, it's partly on the strength of Extreme Speed Mega Altaria.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223957430

Opening with my opponent switching in a Blissey on my Trick Choice Specs. Note that there was a fairly lengthy pause on my opponent's end after this. Oddly, the game gave me the warning that I might be trapped with Blissey without me even attempting to switch, giving away that it had Arena Trap. Also for some reason Raikou interprets me clicking Stealth Rock to mean "re-Trick them". Annoying, and probably cost me the match.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223961340

I got tired of Alakazam's Physical frailty, so I replaced it with Espeon, which hits slightly less hard and is a bit slower, but is all-around more bulky. I considered going with Keldeo, actually. In any event the match comes down very close to the wire -and I'm annoyed with myself for not opening with Trick, which I was leaning toward doing... and didn't. Would've let me get Stealth Rock up and just been good in general.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224081534

Good conversation afterward. Close match too, though I pulled through in the end. I really should've acted quicker to get the Trick onto Suicune though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224085807

Came this close to being swept by Mega Venusaur inheriting from Masquerain. Very nasty for a team that isn't running a Talonflame inheritor. Also my opponent gives up a bit prematurely.

Only partially related: Alakazam really has been crapped on enormously over the years. Here I can fix its issues with movepool and typing all in one go, focusing on its excellent Speed and Special Attack, and ultimately I replace it with Espeon because even though Espeon is slower and less hard hitting it's noticeably more bulky. Why did they have to make Mega Alakazam so lame? I also considered Keldeo, and may use it yet, due to its Stealth Rock resistance and overall even better statline, but part of the appeal of Alakazam/Espeon is that they outrun Gengar, which Keldeo does not, so I dunno.

Also Haxorus is amazing inheriting from Kecleon. First meta I've used Haxorus in, actually.
Click to expand...
Keld is ban.
 
Chopin Alkaninoff said:
If Arena Trap is banned, the metagame would be more Stally. Imo unban something to make it even more stally, no?

Also, how's Assist so far?
Click to expand...

... this starts from the assumption that Arena Trap is not beneficial to Stall, which is incorrect. Being able to trap and Toxic to death an opponent is excellent for Stall, and Stall is more likely to have Wish support to make up for the lack of recovery, hazard management, etc.

Throbulator36 said:
Keld is ban.
Click to expand...

Forgot. Espeon fo lyfe!

Snaquaza said:
Arena Trap now has an official suspect. It was kinda obvious it was a problem already, but this means the council is going to vote for it in ~5/7 days. Please convince us!
Click to expand...

In addition to potential brokenness, I genuinely feel Arena Trap is just unhealthy for the play experience. It's not fun to fight, it's not even really fun to use, and it can reduce a match to 20+ turns of one player (kind of) playing the game and the other not. (Gothitelle is worse about this, but Inverse is the only tier I've played where it's viable enough for this to be maddening)

I'm just going to drop what replays I do have, actually. I'm just not collecting anymore.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223501736

Really, I should've just opened with Final Gambit. Note that my opponent forfeits in the face of this, even though I'm playing really badly.

In between this match and the next I got taken down by a competent opponent and reworked my team, and then an Assist team wrecked me, prompting me to post in the thread.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223507389

Close match, and I'm still working out the kinks in the team. (It's still ridiculously sub-optimal)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223548234

In which a crit prevents Final Gambit from KOing a Poison Heal Suicune. Note that it removes 80% of Suicune's health while at less than 50% of its own health.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223679315

In which I never do get around to Final Gambiting his Suicune :(

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223689572

Trapping!
 
Ghoul King said:
So gathering replays related to Arena Trap was boring and bad and unfun for all parties involved, so I stopped partway through and instead decided to give a Protean gimmick team a try, primarily on a suspicion that Protean is kind of dumb to be universally available. The team initially struggled a bit with stall-y threats/teams, until I realized Kecleon's access to Trick can be a complete shut-down of a stallmon, at which point the team became considerably more reliable. A lot more reliable than I'd really expect a gimmick team to be, honestly.

I'm of mixed feelings as to whether Protean ought to be suspected or something or not, because on the one hand it can do evil things to offense teams and doesn't have to do much to adapt itself to dealing with stall teams, and on the other hand it's not as overwhelming as I'd initially thought it might be. It's certainly the case that Protean provides almost everything a Pokemon could want -between Kecleon and Greninja you've got three out of the four hazards, Kecleon has Recover, they can both donate competent Physical or Special moves, and Protean reduces the user down to its statline for determining whether it's a good recipient or not, basically, barring that Mega Evolutions shouldn't do the Protean thing. (Barring gimmicks, I guess)

In any event, here's replays of my Protean team, which has performed better on the ladder than my "real" team, especially once I got the stall problem handled. There's still the occasional threat that I have to act on immediately or risk being swept (I just recently fought a Mega Venusaur inheriting from Masqeurain, and it came very close to sweeping me), but it's honestly been a very effective team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223691424

First match. Not a great player, honestly, but it's still an OK illustration. I later discovered that I'd failed to set EVs on Alakazam, and yet look how it performs here!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223698337

In which my opponent is a gentleman and a scholar. (Or a gentlewoman, either or)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223703817

In which I discover that Kecleon does get Stealth Rock, meaning Protean has the full range of hazards available to it, and adjust accordingly.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223704729

In which Protean is really, really good.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223709304

In which one of the only flaws with a Protean gimmick team rears its head: no hazard management.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223757598

Victory!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223913918

In which my opponent has two Protean Pokemon themselves.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223916167

VS Akumeoy, in which he identifies the gimmick on his own partway through... and loses.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223918763

Ripping teams in half still.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223920586

A more Stall team that comes apart at the seams. My opponent forfeits when they have 3 Pokemon left and I have 5, all in good condition and only one moderately injured, with Rocks on both sides.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223952852

Trick continues to let me push right through Stallmons (My opponent left the instant I Tricked a Choice Band onto their Quagsire-Chansey), even when much of my team was taken down by Choiced Hyper Voice spam. I think this battle also marks the point where my Protean team overtakes my main account in ladder rank. (I was definitely ahead of myself, anyway)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223954538

In which my opponent forfeits fairly early. To be fair, I'd crippled their Aegislash and KOed two of their other Pokemon, all without Raikou so much as switching.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223955437

A balanced team that's nifty, but my opponent ultimately forfeits. To be fair, it's partly on the strength of Extreme Speed Mega Altaria.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223957430

Opening with my opponent switching in a Blissey on my Trick Choice Specs. Note that there was a fairly lengthy pause on my opponent's end after this. Oddly, the game gave me the warning that I might be trapped with Blissey without me even attempting to switch, giving away that it had Arena Trap. Also for some reason Raikou interprets me clicking Stealth Rock to mean "re-Trick them". Annoying, and probably cost me the match.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223961340

I got tired of Alakazam's Physical frailty, so I replaced it with Espeon, which hits slightly less hard and is a bit slower, but is all-around more bulky. I considered going with Keldeo, actually. In any event the match comes down very close to the wire -and I'm annoyed with myself for not opening with Trick, which I was leaning toward doing... and didn't. Would've let me get Stealth Rock up and just been good in general.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224081534

Good conversation afterward. Close match too, though I pulled through in the end. I really should've acted quicker to get the Trick onto Suicune though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224085807

Came this close to being swept by Mega Venusaur inheriting from Masquerain. Very nasty for a team that isn't running a Talonflame inheritor. Also my opponent gives up a bit prematurely.

Only partially related: Alakazam really has been crapped on enormously over the years. Here I can fix its issues with movepool and typing all in one go, focusing on its excellent Speed and Special Attack, and ultimately I replace it with Espeon because even though Espeon is slower and less hard hitting it's noticeably more bulky. Why did they have to make Mega Alakazam so lame? I also considered Keldeo, and may use it yet, due to its Stealth Rock resistance and overall even better statline, but part of the appeal of Alakazam/Espeon is that they outrun Gengar, which Keldeo does not, so I dunno.

Also Haxorus is amazing inheriting from Kecleon. First meta I've used Haxorus in, actually.
Click to expand...
Honestly, one Protean 'mon per team sounds perfectly manageable. It's just when you get spamming that it gets out of hand, I've noticed.

I don't think Protean as a whole warrants a suspect (it's a powerful tool for offense in a meta where stall is also powerful), but I would support a one-per-team clause on it. More complex than a total ban, yes, but it would probably be healthier overall.
 
The thing that has me concerned about Protean is that it offers enormous flexibility and power with the opponent getting literally no warning before your first move and can be thrown on literally any Pokemon with decent offensive stats. It's like Aegislash in Standard, in terms of being able to dish out appalling damage with the enemy having no way to know beforehand what it might be up to, only worse because with Aegislash you at least know that Aegislash is Aegislash and know that Dark, Fire, Ground, and Ghost moves will be super effective against it. Protean-mons can come out of nowhere.

Now this is Inheritance so one can try to argue that this is true in a larger sense -any Pokemon can inherit from any Pokemon, right? Well yes, but if you run Talonflame on anything that it's a Physically oriented Flying type it's dramatically inferior, because Gale Wings only works for Flying moves and Talonflame's movepool includes no Special Flying moves (Bar Hidden Power Flying, hooray) nor any Special boosting moves. So while any given Landorus-Therian is not necessarily a Talonflame inheritor, you can say with confidence that Garchomp is not a Talonflame inheritor, confident that even if you're wrong it will be a bad build and relatively manageable. (That is, the only benefit they might get out of it is if you switch in/stay in with something expecting Garchomp to be unable to outspeed it and KO, and they get the surprise KO because Gale Wings. Once the surprise is lost it's now bad)

Whereas the two Protean donors have excellent Special and Physical movepools, provide priority for slower Pokemon and support tools like Recover and Toxic Spikes, and the Ability itself means it doesn't matter what their base type is, except inasmuch as it affect hazards/their ability to switch into Thunder Wave/etc. Normally Raikou is running something with Special Electric move access -but if it inherits from Greninja, it isn't, and this isn't a problem. At all.

While I'm, as I said, on the fence on doing anything about Protean, I don't think capping Protean would fix anything. A big part of the problem with Protean is that you have no idea what has it until it uses a move, and yet unlike Illusion (Which is much more useful in Inheritance than in Standard because anything can have it, SURPRISE!) it's an extremely useful Ability in its own right even once you know what's going on. (Whereas Illusion's value is largely lost once the enemy realizes what's going on, which may occur through hazards revealing the ruse) I made this team precisely because the occasional random Protean Pokemon just instagibbing one of my Pokemon, no warning at all, was enormously frustrating, and it was only ever one Protean Pokemon I encountered, and yet it still felt "cheap".

The gimmick team just illustrates how flexible and powerful Protean(-donors) is. I can have a team where four of the Pokemon are inheriting from the same Pokemon, and have it valid on the ladder because it's not going to all be walled by one random enemy, unlike most repetitive teams. But this doesn't mean Protean combos well with itself, or that Protean spam is the problem -it just shows how good Protean is, getting all the benefits of surprise (Like Illusion) while being legitimately effective in its own right when the jig is up.

So I really don't think capping it would help any, if the conclusion is drawn that Protean is overly good.
 
I don't mind limitations but I don't want a Protean ban. It's perfectly fine currently imo. Just like megas. They are the only ones with -atespeed, -ateboomburst, Scrappy Extremespeed and Pure Power, but because they are limited to a mega slot, they are fine currently. Protean is very strong, but I don't think its banworthy.

As for Arena Trap, I almost never see a Stall team that carry Arena Trap. Most Arena Traps are used in Offensive or Balance teams, either for breaking Stall with Final Gambit or a guaranteed revenge kill for offensive pokes. So if Arena Trap is gone, I'm thinking Stall will be more dominant, while it is already dominant now. Maybe consider balancing Stall?
 
Assist has been banned. The council voted 3 Ban, 1 Do Not Ban, 1 didn't vote yet, but it doesn't matter.
In general it's just uncompetitive, and we don't lose anything from banning it. There might be a little strategy, but it's just not a good addition to the metagame, as well as being extremely spammable.

We're voting on Arena Trap soon.
 
My own thoughts on stuff:

Protean: No action needed right now. The meta as it is right now handles Protean fairly well. We could get back to this if and when Protean becomes unmanageable.

Arena Trap: After some thought, I've decided that it should be banned. Sure, the donors don't have particularly great movepools. But they have everything they need to be a big problem. That super annoying Chansey set with Struggle Bug/Mud Slap/Rest/Toxic stops pretty much every special attacker in the tier. As seen here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224127112
And on offense's side, we have things like Lando-T which can simply hold a band, switch in on something, KO and switch out.

Final Gambit: Ban pls. Seriously. Not a lot of things outspeed Scarf Blissey. Protect doesn't stop it. Taunt doesn't stop it. You pretty much need to carry a ghost type to stop it. Or you should somehow outspeed and set up a sub, or you have something with Focus Sash and hazards aren't up. Sure, there are ways to stop it. Priority, hazards, Ghost Types, Sub, Sash, Sturdy. Let's look at those. Pretty much nothing except Shuckle Tyranitar uses Sturdy. A couple of leads use Sashes but you can't really keep it intact/have your HP at full if your opponent sends out his Final Gambit user midgame. Sub? You'll need to have Prankster for that. Nobody in their right mind will send out a Final Gambit user if you already have a sub up. And you can't really setup a sub before Scarf Blissey. Ghost types? Fine. But not every team carries a ghost type. Hazards? Stealth Rocks does 12.5%. Bringing Blissey's HP down to 622. Which still kills off half the metagame. 3 layers of spikes? 536 HP! Ooh! SR + 3 layers of spikes? 443 HP! Which still kills off anything less than fully invested base 100(A bit more than that actually. Fully invested base 100 is only 404 HP)! That leaves priority. And if you don't carry powerful priority, you can't do a thing. Really. Blissey KOs pretty much every Pokemon that isn't a fully invested base 100 or more at just 57% of it's full HP. So yeah, it doesn't even need to be at full health to KO half the metagame.
 
I agree that Arena Trap needs to go. Even if it is not overpowered, it is just plain uncompetitive. Game Freak limited to Arena Trap to Dugtrio and Trapinch which are shit. It was never meant to be on something bulky like Chansey. The ability to put Arena Trap on any Pokemon and prevent your opponent from making one of the fundamental choices of the game just encourages auto-pilot strategies which we should be avoiding.

Protean can stay for now. The ability to make any move STAB is really good, but you don't get a power boost on any of those moves when you use Protean which means Protean lack raw power and are vulnerable to priority. Unpredictability is a major part of this meta, so that should not be an argument for banning Protean.

Final Gambit I'm not sure about. Without Arena Trap, your opponent can switch to a ghost type or choose a target for Blissey to suicide on. Final Gambit sets with Choice Scarf cannot do much except commit suicide. I don't think a suicide bomber is really broken. Even with we ban Final Gambit, there is still Explosion with some boosting abilities available for it which can take out most of the meta.
 
my thoughts on protean are actually kinda tame. allthough some abusers of it can be...excessively too good (looking at YOU landorus therian) its not entirely hard to stop. of course, it requires a LOT of dedicated checks to protean (no physical attacker (barring like..maggron) can hardwall all physical protean sets, just because its THAT versatile.) however, stall practically runs 4 checks to protean almost intrinsically, and although protean gets access to good priority, its still not fast enough to outpace the espeeders in the tier. (gale wings is another story entirely). protean intimidates stall greatly, but its not like its impossible to manage.

final gambit: its not like it is THAT broken. arena trap is the main reason its even mentioned. and its only good at eliminating counters on balance/offensive teams, while still being able to say "fuck you" to stalls synergy. what makes final gambit good is that most offensive/balance teams are forced into running at least one pokemon to protect themselves from a specific threat (pinsir, landorus gale, greninja) while final gambit basically allows you to decide which one you want to eliminate in order to provide the assisted sweep...rather then being constantly forced to trap the same pokemon consistantly that a classic attacker would, while ALSO being able to pick off pokemon with under 107 (110 with wailord) from threatening your team for free given you feel safe enough to do so. however it IS a one time thing, you might eliminate a core member of their team, but you also pretty much sacrifice your own teamslot to do so. id be against this ban personally.
 
Arena Trap: Idgaf at this point since I actually prefer to use other methods of reliably eliminating opposing checks to my sweepers, and therefore I guess I'll support the ban just to make other people happy.

Final Gambit: I doubt it is broken without arena trap. Just remember that if you are talking about it as a move, not as a combination with arena trap that very well could be broken. Alone, its suicide bombing, so the only possibly uncompetitive aspect is the fact that its unresisted and only blocked by ghosts. I'm not thinking its all THAT broken.

Protean is a much, much more complex issue to be honest. The problem with protean is the versatility. All of its checks are beaten by a said move. If you are running protean spam, trick is useful, and running iron tail on a protean user bypasses diancie which is stall teams' most common counter to it. The problem I have with banning it because it can beat its checks is that...everything can in this metagame. There is nothing that will wall EVERY landorus-t set. There is nothing that will wall all the glalie sets. Hell, there is nothing that will wall all the terrakion sets either. They aren't broken, and therefore I don't know if protean's versatility makes it broken. Everything with good stats is versatile, so its hard to ban anything on the grounds that its "too versatile" since otherwise we would be banning everything good.
 
xJownage said:
So with any chip damage. ANY. SR made it like a 67% if correct (was addressed in another post). A single hit while its setting up? Again, thats all lant needs. TBH I would run even more hp, there aren't that many scarfmons floating around (the most relevant one being heatran) and the extra bulk can help it tank more attacks. I would not call it lant proof at all because it just takes too much from BB.
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Actually, after running this set for a while, it isn't actually too great. Gear Grind has really bad accuracy. Rock Smash has yet to get me a defence drop ;-; Unaware mons are really common. And worst of all, I haven't gone a single battle without this thing getting a burn some how or the other. Plus Wild Charge has recoil which lessens your life as you have no recovery at all.
 
DarkeKnight said:
Actually, after running this set for a while, it isn't actually too great. Gear Grind has really bad accuracy. Rock Smash has yet to get me a defence drop ;-; Unaware mons are really common. And worst of all, I haven't gone a single battle without this thing getting a burn some how or the other. Plus Wild Charge has recoil which lessens your life as you have no recovery at all.
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Been using it as well and can attest to its mediocrity. Back to megagross we go...
 
rampardos.gif

Rampardos (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Copycat
- Power-Up Punch
- Rock Slide
- Bullet Punch

So this awesome set (inheriting from Riolu) grants Rampardos's massive 471 atk a solution to his biggest problem, lack of speed. Prankster Copycat makes him an extremely effectively revenge killer, and his typing resists the inevitable Gale Wings pokes that gave this set trouble on Conkeldurr. PuP allows him to increase his damage output greatly, and his slow speed means he can use the move of his choice a second time, now with +1 priority. There's nothing more satisfying than revenging something that just killed one of your pokes using its own move against it. I can see something with mixed offensive stats making an effective set out of Prankster Copycat, since Ramp can be kind of useless if your poke was killed with a special move. Bullet Punch is also a very helpful utility, once again giving priority to huge atk. I'm really excited to continue using this ;)

EDIT: Relevant replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-224298515
 
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There are better things Scizor can Inherit from. It can Inherit from Genesect for Iron head, Blaze kick, Extreme speed and shift gear. Also less notably Genesect also gets X-scizzor, U-turn, Gunk shot, Zen headbutt, Facade, Bug bite, Flame charge and Explosion.

Scizor can also inherit from Lucario for Swords dance, Bullet punch, Close comebat and Blaze kick. It also gets Extreme speed, ice punch, thunder punch, high jump kick, low kick and the list goes on forever... Lucario has a really big movepool.
 
Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Inherited from mawile
 
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I've got a few different teams I have been laddering with and I've come up with a few sets I really enjoy using that I would like to share.


Lanturn (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell

Completely shuts down all Suicune I have encountered, especially those that carry toxic. Also a solid counter to Gale Wings.

Ambipom (Beedrill) @ Beedrillite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Gunk Shot
- Taunt

Fake out provides safe Mega Evolution and chip damage. Taunt makes excellent use of M-Bee's speed to shut down hazard leads.

Eelektross (Hydreigon) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 96 HP / 228 Atk / 4 Def / 68 SpA / 112 Spe
Naive Nature
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Knock Off
- Superpower / Drain Punch

Haven't seen much of out Hydrei in this meta, which is a shame considering the massive absence of Fairys and Hydrei's awesome wall breaking capabilities. This set is just meant to be a mixed attacking pivot. Good for luring in Special walls that don't realize you are mixed.

Stoutland (Ursaring) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
Happiness: 0
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Crunch
- Wild Charge
- Superpower

This is a set for use in sand, would be better without the Primal weather abilities but if you can work around them and get this in during sand it will take a mon or two out since it hits super hard.

Sandslash (Krookodile) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

This is another Sand Rush sweeper who really appreciates other weather inducers out of the picture.

Starmie (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Confuse Ray

Tank hits, absorb status, scald, confuse, and spin; Very simple to use, but effective.

Machamp (Infernape) @ Fist Plate
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
- Dynamic Punch
- Vacuum Wave

Makes great use of Nape's decent mixed attacking stats. Mixed attackers really enjoy this meta and Dynamic Punch hits pretty damn hard even without positive nature and max evs.
 
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