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daksunt said:
this combination is almost perfect. nice thread as u explained everything. i know no combo can be super special awesome that always works. its about prediction. unless something bad happens this combo is perfect. i mean mostly powerful physical attacks barely works. unless a baton passer shows up its really great. i mean hmm what about a ninjask? even with max power def? i mean would the team have problems so to back up need new pokes in team to support?
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I think you mean as perfect as a two Pokemon combo can be. Nothing is perfect, which is why 3vs3 is a very risky format. The battle could potentially be already won based on the Pokemon picked, unless one person does something really daft. For example, if you had these two Pokemon up against Infernape or Life Orb Salamence, you would need to make sure your third Pokemon could counter both of them 100%, given that they will be boosted by Sunny Day themselves. Cresselia COULD take hits from both with careful EVs, providing it can take two Crunches, but it is doing little to Infernape besides paralysis, whilst being continuously bombarded by superpowerful Fire Blasts or Flamethrowers.

Also, I completely agree with your comment about the thread. This IMO is how all threads should be written, and is something I always try to do with my RMTs.
 
Why Overheat? You're already packing Fire Blast, which is just 20 BP less than Overheat.

Why are you going to use an attack that gives a 20 BP increase and forces you to switch out after the next turn because of the 2x Sp. Attack loss? It'll force you to switch for the almost too assured Blissey that's running in to wall you. I'm doubting 1 Overheat will kill it, since you're running Life Orb, so after the two Overheats and the dead Blissey, you'll have to switch out losing the good power set-up.

For the record...
Fire Blast + Fire Blast > Overheat + 50% Overheat

Please, for the love of God replace Overheat. Having nukes on Pokemon is really cool (Trust me, I have a Rock Cannon Rhyperior in-game) but it's not worth it if you're packing an attack that's bearly weaker than it and has no drawbacks.

Dark Pulse/Dragon Pulse > Overheat

The extra power combined with the set up won't be killing anything more that Fire Blast couldn't kill.
 
Overheat is a necessity if you are not able to set up the combination, and the added strength may only be 20 BP at the beginning, but it is a huge amount after everything is factored in. With all of the set-up, Overheat is a OHKO on a lot more than Fire Blast.
 
futuresuperstar said:
Overheat is a necessity if you are not able to set up the combination, and the added strength may only be 20 BP at the beginning, but it is a huge amount after everything is factored in. With all of the set-up, Overheat is a OHKO on a lot more than Fire Blast.
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Care to name those common Pokemon that it'll KO with the added power of Overheat?

Standards or Uber -- What will it kill with the initial Overheat rather than 1 Fire Blast?

I don't really feel like doing the calculations on any walls that come in, but I'll say you'll be killing 1, maybe 2 more Pokemon with the added power of Overheat.

You really don't need Overheat if you're using Fire Blast. As I've said before, you're not going to be killing anything more spectacular or useful to kill with the Overheat, because you're already packing an assload of heat with Fire Blast already, which I'm sure will be KOing Pokemon just as fast as Overheat can and without the drawback.
 
What else is he going to use? He already has Earth Power for other Heatran and Flash Firers. Anything else takes more damage from Fire attacks, so Overheat is the best move for just those 1 or 2 times when it is needed to just OHKO/2HKO over Fire Blast. It's not like you're going to use this combo in Ubers where Ho-oh can stall you out of PP if you're not packing Stone Edge. The closest in Standard play is Moltres, who has comparatively weak Special Defense and therefore dies quickly to such superpowered attacks. Carrying both seems like the best way to go IMO.
 
20 base power * Sunny Day (1.5) * Flash Fire (1.5) * STAB (1.5) =
30 * 1.5 * 1.5 =
45 * 1.5 =
67.5

I can imagine that making some difference out there, especially since Overheat is also a little more accurate than Fire Blast. And really, what other move would YOU suggest when you're OHKOing damn near everything?
 
Striker said:
Care to name those common Pokemon that it'll KO with the added power of Overheat?

Standards or Uber -- What will it kill with the initial Overheat rather than 1 Fire Blast?

I don't really feel like doing the calculations on any walls that come in, but I'll say you'll be killing 1, maybe 2 more Pokemon with the added power of Overheat.

You really don't need Overheat if you're using Fire Blast. As I've said before, you're not going to be killing anything more spectacular or useful to kill with the Overheat, because you're already packing an assload of heat with Fire Blast already, which I'm sure will be KOing Pokemon just as fast as Overheat can and without the drawback.
Click to expand...

If you did calculation it would help your point greatly.Other wise the extra power and accuracy of Overheat comes in handy against Milotic,Cresselia, Blissey,Gyarados which is a big deal.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
I think you mean as perfect as a two Pokemon combo can be. Nothing is perfect, which is why 3vs3 is a very risky format. The battle could potentially be already won based on the Pokemon picked, unless one person does something really daft. For example, if you had these two Pokemon up against Infernape or Life Orb Salamence, you would need to make sure your third Pokemon could counter both of them 100%, given that they will be boosted by Sunny Day themselves. Cresselia COULD take hits from both with careful EVs, providing it can take two Crunches, but it is doing little to Infernape besides paralysis, whilst being continuously bombarded by superpowerful Fire Blasts or Flamethrowers.

Also, I completely agree with your comment about the thread. This IMO is how all threads should be written, and is something I always try to do with my RMTs.
Click to expand...
no i dont mean its perfect but very great and hard to counter. as a matter of fact i dont fear much of infernape or salamance as there are other pokemon in ur team nor psuedo hazers. i just hear of baton passers as they are seen oftenly and might end ur combo, i mean using sunny beam combo in the beginning seems better as u quickly sweep without ur opponent realizing the situation. i mean i cant think this combo agains a ninjask. turn starts, and then speed boost u switch for a roar or whirlwinder then he switches and may even take the roarer down. ruins ur combo. but if we can use this combo its result would be devastating.
 
This is the Damage Formula

Damage = ((((2 * Level / 5 + 2) * AttackStat * AttackPower / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * STAB * Weakness/Resistance * RandomNumber / 100

All calculations will be made considering max possible damage. This is a Life Orb Modest Heatran with
Flash Fire and Sunny Day in effect so therefore…

(((42) * (394 * Life Orb 1.2) * (120 or 140) / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * Weakness/Resistance * (Sunny Day * 1.5) * (Flash Fire * 1.5)

We can simplify this further to...

(((42) * (472.8) * (120 or 140) / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * 3.375 * Weakness/Resistance

-- 3.375 is (1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5)

Is this equation correct? I'm pretty sure Life Orb's description says increases attack and sp. attack by 20%, so I'm pretty sure it should be a direct modifier to Heatran's Sp. Attack.

We’ll start out by listing the damage a supposed switch-in Pokemon in Uber or OU in alphabetical order, all Pokemon are at max IVs, +Sp.Def Nature, 252 HP, and 252 Special Defense for calculation purposes. This is in exception to Blissey as she 99.99% of the time runs at a Bold nature and 148 HP and 252 Def EVs.

Blissey (688 HP)
-- Fire Blast: 532 Damage
-- Overheat: 619 Damage (It’s still plenty alive to Softboil up and live easily through a half-power Overheat)

Bronzong (338 HP) (Heatproof Ability)
-- Fire Blast: 448 Damage (Dead)
-- Overheat: Overkill

Cresselia (444 HP)
-- Fire Blast: 414 Damage
-- Overheat: 484 Damage (Dead)

Deoxys (304 HP) (Defense)
-- Fire Blast: 356 Damage (Dead)
-- Overheat: Overkill

Dialga (404 HP)
-- Fire Blast: 497 Damage (Dead)
-- Overheat: Overkill

Dragonite (386 HP)
-- Fire Blast: 248 Damage
-- Overheat: 289 Damage

Gyarados (394 HP)
-- Fire Blast: 248 Damage
-- Overheat: 289 Damage

Ho-Oh (416 HP)
-- Fire Blast: There’s no way in hell Heatran will be doing anything worthy versus Ho-Oh
-- Overheat: 416 HP, 447 Sp. Def, Fire Resist, and Ground Immune.

Kyogre (404 HP)
-- Fire Blast: There’s no way in hell Heatran will be doing anything worthy versus Kyogre
-- Overheat: 404 HP, 416 Sp. Def, Fire Resist, and Water > Fire/Steel.

Latias (364 HP)
-- Fire Blast: There’s no way in hell Heatran will be doing anything worthy versus Latias
-- Overheat: 364 HP, 394 Sp. Def, Fire Resist, and Ground Immune.

-- I’ll stop here…

I’m pretty sure I’ve made myself clear here. Even Pokemon that are rarely used like Dragonite can take an Overheat and live. I believe the only Pokemon that can die only from Overheat’s increased power is Cresselia, but that doesn’t even take into consideration the 85% - 100% random damage (All damage was calculated at 100%) or the fact that Cresselia could have a CM up.

In most situations, both Overheat and Fire Blast come close to 1HKO’ing, so they both need to use two hits to kill a Pokemon.

Fire Blast + Fire Blast > Overheat + 50% Overheat

There isn’t anything mind-blowingly noteworthy that Overheat kills to insist on keeping it in. There are some things that Dark Pulse or Dragon Pulse can do that can counter Pokemon that can wall you badly. Ho-Oh walls both your Tangrowth and Heatran combo, easily. Dark Pulse/Dragon Pulse for example can hit SE and likely KO Lati@s.

If nothing else, Ho-Oh will become an instant marine airforce landing base sized wall if you don't consider something to use against it. Hell, it got a lot worse since Stone Edge and Stealth Rocks were added to the game, but it still walls those 2 Pokemon with ease.

Fire Blast is much better in my opinion. After the opponent falls for it once, they're not going to get baited again so stupidly. You'll likely have 1 chance to set up this set, and it would be wise to Fire Blast anything that comes near it until it runs out of PP. 1 Overheat Sp. Attack loss completely ruins any huge power Overheat had, so Overheat will be killing sometimes maybe ONE more Pokemon? I'd rather take a chance and 2 hit any Special Wall that comes near it, because after the Special Walls are down, you can turn right around and destroy any and all sweepers the enemy has.

I think the main weakness of Heatran is the very low speed. I'd really recommend Timid instead of Modest. It's packing enough firepower and it can sacrifice overkill damage to outspeed a few Pokemon to 1HKO them.

20 base power * Sunny Day (1.5) * Flash Fire (1.5) * STAB (1.5) =
30 * 1.5 * 1.5 =
45 * 1.5 =
67.5
Click to expand...

If my calculations are correct... That 67.5 has drastically lower effects the higher the Sp. Def the opponent has and much lower effects with Resistances. Especially Palkia/Kingra's 4x Fire Resist which craps all over any Overheats.
 
This is going to get most of its mileage out of standard play, so a lot of that point is moot. It's not like the OP proposed this to be "the combination that ruined Uber play" or anything.

This combination is so cool I'm past the "why didn't I think of it first" part already! One's prediction skills are going to have to be pretty keen to pull it off well though, as with any inherently "good" combo.
 
Thanks for all of the input, guys! I hope this catches on in competitive battling.

Stiker, all of your calculations are incorrect. For one, Life Orb gives a 1.3x boost, not a 1.2x boost. But, more importantly, let us consider how many of the Pokemon you named will actually be running a +Sp.Def Nature, 252 EVs in HP and Sp.Def. I am going to disregard ubers, since this combination is not intended for uber play.

Blissey (688 HP)
-- Okay, this is a Pokemon you would use Fire Blast on, since it is one of the few things that cannot be killed by Overheat. Nothing to say, here. But, two Fire Blasts wastes this thing before it ever can kill you or save itself.

Bronzong (338 HP) (Heatproof Ability)
-- Even factoring in the uncommon Heatproof and massive EVs, it still dies to Fire Blast.

Cresselia (444 HP)
-- This is where it makes a difference! This is where an Overheat is necessary. The last thing you want is Cresselia getting off a Light Screen before she dies.

Dragonite (386 HP)
-- Who in their right mind would ever give such EVs to Dragonite?

Gyarados (394 HP)
-- Who in their right mind would ever give such EVs to Gyarados?

Okay, here is the thing. Considering standard forms of such Pokemon, there are several Pokemon that die to Overheat that would otherwise not to Fire Blast. Cresselia, Bulky Gyarados, and Milotic, for instance, are done in by Overheat.

Maybe I did not explain this, correctly. Do not just use Overheat! That is why Fire Blast is there! Know what can kill what, and start using Fire Blast. When Milotic, Gyarados, or, most importantly, Cresselia, pops out, then use Overheat. If necessary, use it one more time. Then, use Explosion.

Fire Blast -> Fire Blast -> Fire Blast ... -> Overheat -> (Overheat) -> Explosion

The Overheat is there when you cannot afford to miss or hit something that you need to take out in one hit that you could not with Fire Blast.

Additionally, if you only happen to set up Sunny Day and not Flash Fire, you lose a lot of power. However, with Overheat, you still have the power to take out the threats you lost the ability to with Fire Blast. Fire Blast can still take out smaller threats, and then Overheat such things that now can survive.

This is the *main* reason for Explosion. You do not *want* to switch out if you set this stuff up, so save your Overheats for when you need them and then when the special attacking loss is too great, Explode in the enemy's face.

Timid vs. Modest is a debate that will forever ring across the metagame. For the purposes of this combination, I do not think Heatran can afford the loss of special attack. He will lose the ability to kill Cresselia and Gyarados with Overheat, and his Fire Blast may come up short on many Pokemon. On top of that, if the set-up does not go exactly as planned, and you only have Sunny Day in effect and not Flash Fire, that is a 1.5x that disappears. Heatran needs Modest to ensure he still is hitting as hard as possible. But, that is the call of the user which nature he wishes to run.
 
daksunt said:
no i dont mean its perfect but very great and hard to counter. as a matter of fact i dont fear much of infernape or salamance as there are other pokemon in ur team nor psuedo hazers. i just hear of baton passers as they are seen oftenly and might end ur combo, i mean using sunny beam combo in the beginning seems better as u quickly sweep without ur opponent realizing the situation. i mean i cant think this combo agains a ninjask. turn starts, and then speed boost u switch for a roar or whirlwinder then he switches and may even take the roarer down. ruins ur combo. but if we can use this combo its result would be devastating.
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WHAT!? Can anyone translate this for me?
 
Post I before people knew about this combination but i forgot put that even though i knew about combination, like jumpman said "you get why didn't i think of from it".I never taught to use that way.The way the thread was put together and thought put in was immaculate.


-Speed may be the better choice being that you can set up stealth rocks and spikes to make up the extra damage.

-It gives you solid weather change which is nice all t-tars and hippos

-I am putting together this with combo.I am probably putting on a Scizor or Fortress maybe even a dry skin Toxicroak aka "Fire Bait".
 
I run these two in BT, and they work very nicely together. I really like this set, it seems like it would work well. Tangrowth does wonders for me, and he definatly has time to set up at least 2 Sunny Day's before getting KO'd.

@Striker:
Yes, you are right. Fire Blast+Fire Blast does do more damage than 2 Overheats in a row. But what if one of those Fire Blast's misses? Sure, Overheat can miss, but not nearly as much as Fire Blast. Besides, Cresselia setting up a Light Screen because you FB'd instead of OH'd ruins the whole strategy.
 
futuresuperstar said:
Thanks for all of the input, guys! I hope this catches on in competitive battling.

Stiker, all of your calculations are incorrect. For one, Life Orb gives a 1.3x boost, not a 1.2x boost. But, more importantly, let us consider how many of the Pokemon you named will actually be running a +Sp.Def Nature, 252 EVs in HP and Sp.Def. I am going to disregard ubers, since this combination is not intended for uber play.

Blissey (688 HP)
-- Okay, this is a Pokemon you would use Fire Blast on, since it is one of the few things that cannot be killed by Overheat. Nothing to say, here. But, two Fire Blasts wastes this thing before it ever can kill you or save itself.

Bronzong (338 HP) (Heatproof Ability)
-- Even factoring in the uncommon Heatproof and massive EVs, it still dies to Fire Blast.

Cresselia (444 HP)
-- This is where it makes a difference! This is where an Overheat is necessary. The last thing you want is Cresselia getting off a Light Screen before she dies.

Dragonite (386 HP)
-- Who in their right mind would ever give such EVs to Dragonite?

Gyarados (394 HP)
-- Who in their right mind would ever give such EVs to Gyarados?

Okay, here is the thing. Considering standard forms of such Pokemon, there are several Pokemon that die to Overheat that would otherwise not to Fire Blast. Cresselia, Bulky Gyarados, and Milotic, for instance, are done in by Overheat.

Maybe I did not explain this, correctly. Do not just use Overheat! That is why Fire Blast is there! Know what can kill what, and start using Fire Blast. When Milotic, Gyarados, or, most importantly, Cresselia, pops out, then use Overheat. If necessary, use it one more time. Then, use Explosion.

Fire Blast -> Fire Blast -> Fire Blast ... -> Overheat -> (Overheat) -> Explosion

The Overheat is there when you cannot afford to miss or hit something that you need to take out in one hit that you could not with Fire Blast.

Additionally, if you only happen to set up Sunny Day and not Flash Fire, you lose a lot of power. However, with Overheat, you still have the power to take out the threats you lost the ability to with Fire Blast. Fire Blast can still take out smaller threats, and then Overheat such things that now can survive.

This is the *main* reason for Explosion. You do not *want* to switch out if you set this stuff up, so save your Overheats for when you need them and then when the special attacking loss is too great, Explode in the enemy's face.

Timid vs. Modest is a debate that will forever ring across the metagame. For the purposes of this combination, I do not think Heatran can afford the loss of special attack. He will lose the ability to kill Cresselia and Gyarados with Overheat, and his Fire Blast may come up short on many Pokemon. On top of that, if the set-up does not go exactly as planned, and you only have Sunny Day in effect and not Flash Fire, that is a 1.5x that disappears. Heatran needs Modest to ensure he still is hitting as hard as possible. But, that is the call of the user which nature he wishes to run.
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Sorry, I had thought this was intended for ubers...? Did Heatran not make it into Uber? I knew Cresselia didn't, and I haven't been here since the time before the American release of DP. I never really got the time to play DP and post here again because of work, etc.

That's all wishful thinking on your part. That leads to failure in the strategy.

If they see a Heatran OHKO'ing one of their Pokemon with Fire Blast with the added power of Sunny Day, Flash Fire, and Life Orb, they'll know they'll need to bring out their Special Wall if they want to kill you.

Enemy sends out Blissey!

If they're smart, they'll status you immediately with either Sing or Thunderwave. Softboiled will only extend their life to just perform more Softboileds at which point they'll die because they cannot heal as fast as Fire Blast can damage.

Heatran uses Fire Blast!
Blissey uses Sing!
Heatran has fallen asleep!

Sleep will indefinitely put your Heatran out of battle, long enough for the opponent to set up on you with CM Bliss or another Sweeper if you decide to keep your Heatran in hoping he wakes up this turn or the next.

Heatran uses Fire Blast!
Blissey uses Thunder Wave!
Heatran has become paralyzed!

Thunderwave equally screws you over for the whole battle, unless you have a Cleric on your team, at which point you'd have to switch out into your Cleric, therefore losing all your boosts. Like I've said before, the enemy isn't going to be baited again by Tangrowth to hit it with a Fire Attack, because he'll just be facing the monstrosity that just killed his Blissey. If you decide to keep Heatran in with paralysis, all you have left to do is use an Overheat, then Explosion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In concensus, the battle will look like this.

Heatran uses Land Power!
(Kills Fire Pokemon that took bait. Enemy switches in Blissey.)

Heatran uses Fire Blast!
Blissey uses Sing/Thunder Wave!
(You're statused, crippling you massively.)

You either...
A. Kept Heatran in despite the sleep. You do nothing. Blissey got a free turn to Softboil up and has about 70% HP after.
B. Kept Heatran in despite the paralysis. You move second and Blissey can Softboiled up to maybe survive another Fire Blast.
C. Kept Heatran in despite the paralysis. You were too paralyzed too move and Blissey got a free turn to Softboil up and has 70% HP after.
D. Switch out, losing the massive boosts you had while Blissey got a free turn to Softboil up.

If you're going to use sheer prediction and hope that the enemy is stupid, be welcome. However, do consider that sometimes it may be YOU who makes a stupid move and the opponent that has the sheer prediction power to counter this moveset too. Taking for granted that you're always making the better move is never the way to try to pull off a strategy.
 
Well, assuming Blissey is always at 100% HP, that would happen. If Blissey gets hurt earlier in the battle, Heatran easily finishes her.
 
ShadowNinja X7 said:
Well, assuming Blissey is always at 100% HP, that would happen. If Blissey gets hurt earlier in the battle, Heatran easily finishes her.
Click to expand...

That's even more wishful thinking. Blissey may or may not always be at 100%. The battle scenario is taken at the worst conditions for the player. If a strategy can take down Pokemon, even in the best scenario, then it can easily take them down too in the best case scenario.

Also, it may just be me, but I tend not to see more than 1 offensive Special Attacker on teams, as usually bulky waters or Pokemon like Cresselia don't lure Blissey in.

If another Special Attacker lured Blissey in, then they could have damaged Blissey, but seeing as how its rare to see more than 1 offenseive special attacker on a team (in this case, Heatran) I doubt that would be the case.
 
"This strategy sucks since anyone who has a certain Blissey set can kill it."
wrong
Just to note, I've seen far more SeismicToss/IceBeam/Softboiled/Aromatherapy Blisseys than any other style, easily more than half of the people I've battled. Even in the case you describe, Sing could easily miss or you could kill her after paralysis kicks in (note 2: thunder wave is far more common than sing).
Anything can be taken down by the right counter. But does your opponent have the right counter? In the case you described, which is slightly unlikely, they do. In almost any other case, they don't. There are things beside Blissey that can beat this Heatran, like a ChoiceBand FireMonkey with Close Combat. Guaranteed OHKO. That doesn't mean that if you're fighting a smart battler, they'll win. It means if you're fighting a battler lucky enough to have a counter, they'll win.

Edit:
"If another Special Attacker lured Blissey in, then they could have damaged Blissey, but seeing as how its rare to see more than 1 offenseive special attacker on a team (in this case, Heatran) I doubt that would be the case."
Tangrowth is a special attacker, and someone could easily plop another special attacker on their team. I know that my current team contains four special attackers. If Blissey can beat your strategy, lure it out earlier to stop it from beating your strategy. You just proved yourself wrong.
 
Wow I love this combination, and you've done a nice job explaining it. However, because it seems so good on paper, i decided to try and come up with a solid counter who hold the GrowthTran down pretty effectively. granted, you can use another 4 members on your team to counter the few legitimate counters to a 2-man combo, but i just wanted to make sure that nobody thinks its absolutely unstoppable. here's the fanboy pokemon shining through.

Charizard @Salac/Liechi Berry

Swords Dance/Dragon Dance
Fire Punch
Earthquake
Rock Slide/Focus Punch/Return/Fly/Substitute/Endure

the last move doesnt make much of a difference as far as GrowthTran is concerned. anyways, Charizard destroys Tangrowth, as it benefits from the Sunny Day and doesnt take shit for damage from Focus Blast or Grass Rope. The predicted fire move switch to Heatran won't work out because Charizard will inevitably set up on the first few turns with either Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. Charizard will outspeed both Heatran and Tangrowth, and has the moves to KO both of them. After running calculations, even in Sunny Day if Charizard doesnt decide to KO with Earthquake, Heatran's Fire Blast will never OHKO a min/min Zard, and his Overheat will OHKO a min/min only sometimes. Still, Adamant Charizard's speed will hit 299 in comparison to Heatran's 253. Even an unboosted, weak 293 Atk from Charizard will still deliver an OHKO on Heatran from Earthquake.
 
^ Just as I said... Anything can be countered, but what is the chance of someone having that oddball 'zard on their team? Less than the chance of "growthtran" getting a sweep ;S
 
I still can't believe people are still saying this idea has little to no counters. Whilst I like it for its ingenuity and originality, I must say it isn't THAT amazing. ANY Fire type with 281+ Speed and either Earthquake or a very strong fighting move breaks this down, as well as many mixed sweepers with Ground/Ice or Ground/Fire move combos. To add to nomargu46's Charizard, I could include Infernape, Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite among other less used candidates. This whole charade reminds me of the whole Gaburaisu hoohah caused by the Japanese release. What next? A 500+ post thread entitled 'Who will be your GrowthTran counter?'.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
I still can't believe people are still saying this idea has little to no counters. Whilst I like it for its ingenuity and originality, I must say it isn't THAT amazing. ANY Fire type with 281+ Speed and either Earthquake or a very strong fighting move breaks this down, as well as many mixed sweepers with Ground/Ice or Ground/Fire move combos. To add to nomargu46's Charizard, I could include Infernape, Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite among other less used candidates. This whole charade reminds me of the whole Gaburaisu hoohah caused by the Japanese release. What next? A 500+ post thread entitled 'Who will be your GrowthTran counter?'.
Click to expand...
This is the point of removing possible counters beforehand. I think we already went over this with the Blissey examples. The point is, this combination is very good, and all you're doing is trying to beat it down rather than accept that it's good. If something is good, it's good. End of story. If something can beat heatran, what do we do? SWITCH AGAIN, SMART ONE.
 
I have accepted that it is good. Three times. All I'm saying is what people are saying about 'switching to something else' can be said about any good strategy, and the opponent can do exactly the same thing, i.e. switch out their GrowthTran counter for 'something else' then bring it back in when they attempt it again. It just doesn't hold as a convincing argument for me.
 
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