Ladder Inverse Battle

While my reasoning is pretty much pro-ban Diggersby, I think Diggersby is necessary to keep Avalugg balanced, because of Shed Shell Avalugg. Shed Shell pretty much invalidate Goth and Wobb as hard stop for Avalugg, and the only good Knock Off user beside Diggersby is Mega Beedrill, Ambipom, and Mega Gallade (I doubt Ambipom and Mega Gallade is that good). If Diggersby is banned, you are pretty much forced to bring Kyurem-N or Melloetta to actually have a chance against Chanslugg core, or you have to waste a moveslot in your mixed attacker for Ice Beam, which has no coverage in Inverse. And if you think random mixed attackers can break through Avalugg... No.

4 SpA Dragonite Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 146-174 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dragonite's Ice Beam won't 2HKO Specially Devensive Avalugg (which will probably be common if Diggersby is banned) and Avalugg can retaliate with Earthquake.

I have no good arguments to keep Serperior around and will look for one. I will vote later for Serperior.
Maybe some of us feel forced to use Avalugg to be able to keep Diggersby in check. And if you have a problem with Shed Shell on Avalugg, maybe run Knock Off instead of some weird mixed attacking set.

Diggersby: Ban
Serperior: Ban
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
How does someone play IB without seeing Diggersby? o.o
not gunna lie, ive rarely seen diggers myself. however, i can see why its worthy of suspect lol and serperior is just a teirbreaker.

Serperior: ban
diggersby: i mean, i cant really judge it if i've rarely seen it so...
 
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Slayer95 According to the Pokemon Type Chart Ground types are immune to Thunder Wave, much like Grass types are immune to powder/spore moves. However, I tested this with insanelegend and Pikachu was able to paralyze Golem with Thunder Wave http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-214569837. Can you patch this for us?
This is false, I just tested it in-game and managed to paralyze Rhyperior (after removing its Lightningrod ability with Worry Seed).

Replicated it again for proof:

 
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Thunder Wave fails in normal play because for some random reason it pays attention to type immunities where most Status moves don't. Ground isn't immune to Electric in Inverse, so it isn't immune, simple as that.

An alternate example is that in non-Inverse Normalized Thunder Wave fails against Ghosts but not Ground types, because it's Normal.

Also: at this point I'm seeing Ground is actually a surprisingly good defensive type in Inverse. Resistance to Water, Ice, and especially Grass is all valuable, while vulnerability to Poison is mostly minor (Poison is mostly "bad Normal" as an offensive type in Inverse -Ground and Poison are the only exceptions, and Poison is an awful defensive type), vulnerability to Electric is manageable, and vulnerability to Rock, though problematic because Stealth Rock, is still mostly manageable because Rock just isn't a good offensive type in Inverse -the only other (relevant) type it's effective against is Fighting, so it's really bad as coverage and since Rock Pokemon themselves are vulnerable to Normal moves it isn't even all that common a STAB since Rock types themselves aren't.

So I'm having success with Hippowdon as an alternate to Avalugg, basically, and it's access to Stealth Rock, auto-setting Sandstorm, and competent offense is actually really cool. It's nice to find a Physical wall that isn't Avalugg and isn't worthless!
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
tolja eevee. kek :> honestly though, i dont blame you for the assumption, gamefreak really should've reworded it better, more like "twave affected by immunities" or something. typical gamefreak and their misinformation of their own facts. lol.
 

OM room

Cheers
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
Um, I believe I found a glitch in the coding...

In The Battle Below, Check Turn Four, Freeze Dry is Still Super effective against Water Types...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-285091304
Not sure if it's Because of it being hard coded, because Freeze dry should be NFE against water types in Inverse because it's SE against them in the normal metagame. Someone please help me understand ;-;
 
That's a hard coded property of the move. It's listed in the description so it should always be accurate. At the same time, there's no real reason to use Freeze Dry in Inverse since now ALL ice moves are SE against Water.
 
Um, I believe I found a glitch in the coding...

In The Battle Below, Check Turn Four, Freeze Dry is Still Super effective against Water Types...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-285091304
Not sure if it's Because of it being hard coded, because Freeze dry should be NFE against water types in Inverse because it's SE against them in the normal metagame. Someone please help me understand ;-;
Inverse only affects the core type chart. It's not like Thick Fat doubles the damage you take from Fire and Ice moves, for example.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
So will S-Tag be banned in Inverse as well? It shapes the metagame quite a bit, so would like to know
 

OM room

Cheers
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
So will S-Tag be banned in Inverse as well? It shapes the metagame quite a bit, so would like to know
Not exactly sure, I mean it shapes the metagame, but it's not exactly broken. Gothitelle is dealt with the numerous psychic types and physical attackers, and wobbuffet is wobbuffet. However. If gothitelle gets a switch-in on a stall mon it's basically a dead mon. Wobbuffet same with anything that can attack and not two hit KO it. Maybe we should hold our own suspect?
 
Honestly, my experience Gothitelle breaks one of the only defensive cores that works at all in the metagame -Chansey+Avalugg- and does so so completely that it's a nightmare. Avalugg can potentially break loose carrying Roar without any need for a Shed Shell, assuming Gothitelle doesn't carry Taunt, which it can, but Chansey is just screwed. All Gothitelle needs to stall out basically any Chansey build is Taunt+Rest.

Gothitelle can also easily switch in on Dark types and kill them, and there's a decent number that are meta-relevant.

In general, Inverse is a big help to Gothitelle, as its typing is not nearly as much of a liability (Even if resistance to Bug, Dark, and Ghost is not the greatest thing ever) and BST overall drops in Inverse in practice because so many high BST threats in Standard are saddled with irredeemably awful typings in Inverse and so don't see use, with only a handful of high BST-but-awful-in-Standard Pokemon rising to replace them. This makes Gothitelle's poor BST a lot more competitive, making it easier for it to find offensive threats it can come in on and kill.

Honestly, the only reason I haven't pushed the topic is because the thread is largely dead and there's no formalized process that I can see for handling bans/unbans in Inverse.
 
I see absolutely no reason not to carry the Shadow Tag ban over to Inverse. Gothitelle just wholly invalidates defensive play, and unlike in OU it actually has a fantastic typing here. The justification for banning Gothitelle in the OU suspect thread applies here for the most part. Wobbuffet on the other hand, like previously mentioned, just traps and kills whatever it wants.

Like Ghoul King I've been of the opinion that Shadow Tag is broken for a while but this thread is dead so I didn't see the point in bringing it up.

Also if anyone is planning on bringing up "but we need Gothitelle because ChansLugg is unbeatable otherwise" - this is just completely false. There are many ways to beat this core for every playstyle out there, and even if this was true keeping a trapper in the tier to balance something broken would be pretty stupid.
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
+CLAUSES
  • Standard OU banlist
technically that means it has to be banned, enless we hold a suspect to unban it. just wanted to throw this out there.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
+CLAUSES
  • Standard OU banlist
technically that means it has to be banned, enless we hold a suspect to unban it. just wanted to throw this out there.
Well Landorus-I and Greninja are both not banned, so this can also be re-evaluated
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Well Landorus-I and Greninja are both not banned, so this can also be re-evaluated
true, but i just noticed, isnt stag a clause? which means, technically since inverse follows every OU clause, and doesnt add any more on, do we update OUR clauses? or is that just coincidence
 

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