Ladder Inverse Battle

EV

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So it will be banned in Inverse at the same time it's banned from OU?

Because there are so many difference between Standard OU and Inverse's banlist, would it be better if Inverse didn't follow Standard OU banlist? That'll prevent from having too much unbans or anything. Inverse is very different from OU. Greninja being broken in OU doesn't mean it's broken in Inverse. Same goes for the unbanned Steel types.
Inverse uses the OU banlist as a starting point, so when something in OU is banned, it affects Inverse automatically. That being said, I can reverse it by asking an administrator to unban it in the Inverse code, which is what we'll do with Greninja.
 
So err gamebreaking bug coming through.

I hesitated between posting this here or in the bug report thread but since the bug thread is (I assume) for problems in the mechanics of moves and such and not mistakes in metagame coding this would be a better place to post it. If it isn't feel free to move the post or tell me to post it elsewhere.

So basically, if a Pokemon, in standard, is immune to a move due to its first typing (which makes the move 2x SE), and weak to a move in its second typing (which makes the move 0.5 NVE), the Pokemon is hit super effectively regardless. This replay is a good demonstration of what I'm talking about:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/inversebattle-197943542

So in this replay:
  • Chansey, a Normal type, is hit super effectively by Shadow Ball.
  • Alakazam, a Psychic type, is hit not very effectively by Shadow Ball.
  • Meloetta, a Psychic/Normal type, is hit super effectively by Shadow Ball, despite the fact that's it's SE on Normal and NVE on Psychic.
This replay proves that it's immunities in general and not just the Normal type:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-197944417

I think The Immortal is the correct person to tag for this?
 
So err gamebreaking bug coming through.

I hesitated between posting this here or in the bug report thread but since the bug thread is (I assume) for problems in the mechanics of moves and such and not mistakes in metagame coding this would be a better place to post it. If it isn't feel free to move the post or tell me to post it elsewhere.

So basically, if a Pokemon, in standard, is immune to a move due to its first typing (which makes the move 2x SE), and weak to a move in its second typing (which makes the move 0.5 NVE), the Pokemon is hit super effectively regardless. This replay is a good demonstration of what I'm talking about:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/inversebattle-197943542

So in this replay:
  • Chansey, a Normal type, is hit super effectively by Shadow Ball.
  • Alakazam, a Psychic type, is hit not very effectively by Shadow Ball.
  • Meloetta, a Psychic/Normal type, is hit super effectively by Shadow Ball, despite the fact that's it's SE on Normal and NVE on Psychic.
This replay proves that it's immunities in general and not just the Normal type:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-197944417

I think The Immortal is the correct person to tag for this?
Thanks for the detailed report! I have now been able to figure this out. It will be live on next server restart (which should happen soon).
 
So first lemme dump some Mega Beedrill replays on ya.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-194778855

In which my opponent forfeits and calls me a hacker. Does not understand Inverse is my best guess.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-194780171

In which I trap and kill an Avalugg, and Mega Beedrill tanks a hit from Psychic just fine. Also I basically waste my access to Terrakion.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-195017692

In which I make some dumb plays, but ultimately win, and Gothitelle is the woman of the hour, not Mega Beedrill.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-195019803

In which my opponent forfeits and does not seem to understand Inverse. Also, Special Cloyster. Running Aurora Beam. OK.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-195021122

In which my opponent is actually competent, and I realize I really have too much Grass vulnerability. But my opponent forfeits again, possibly in part because they're team is too slow overall. I'm also beginning to suspect I need a slow U-Turner or Volt Switcher to actually get Mega Beedrill back in action -I'm having a hard time switching it in.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-195024241

More forfeiting. This match decides me: I'm replacing Dragonite with something to support Mega Beedrill properly.

Then I had matches I lost in part due to bad plays and in part due to hax, and then someone forfeited in response to me trapping and killing their Scizor -Gothitelle is honestly kind of ridiculous in Inverse, with it's only real flaw being that it's best/only healing is Rest, which is awful.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-195070633

In which I really should've U-Turned at the end of the match. Goddammit.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-196102074

In which the match lags. Extensively. Not sure why. And then my opponent forfeits when I take out their Diggersby with Terrakion. OK.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-196174919

In which my opponent sets up for Lanturn to sweep their team, and then forfeits, clearly seeing it coming. Not sure why they were running Mega Steelix.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-196420183

In which I finally have a full battle and manage to do quite a lot of damage with Mega Beedrill -and then Mega Absol OHKOs it with Sucker Punch, ffff. Also, Drill Run is super effective on Talonflame, prompting me to post this to Bug Reports.

And then I failed to save a replay of me defeating a Normal spam team that included Mega Lopunny. Dangit. Mega Beedrill actually contributed a lot in that match!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-198356818

In which a Blissey takes more than 50 turns to go down after I've lost half my team. Good match though!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-198364329

In which I again trap and kill an Avalugg with Gothitelle. Mega Beedrill+Gothitelle is a good core! But then something weird happens and my opponent times out from the timer he started, so the match only half-plays out. Even so. I'm also starting to get good use out of slow Volt Switch, which was why I put Lanturn on the team in the first place.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-198367699

In which the Blissey from before is trapped and killed. Only took like 50 turns this time. Another good match. Also Gothitelle is still great.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-198393635

In which I trap and kill a Politoed with Gothitelle and then stall out their Rain. Mega Beedrill proceeds to sweep the team. Well, not quite, but it does an enormous amount of damage before it goes down. Also their Focus Blast misses Gothitelle, but I calced it, and I would've survived a hit, so it didn't actually matter.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-199467532

In which I switch from Terrakion to Virizion, because Terrakion isn't doing it for me. Also, Banded Scizor, which throws me quite badly. And then my opponent forfeits when I trap their Eviolite Chansey. OK.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-199470204

In which I allow an enemy Gothitelle to trap and kill my Avalugg. And Drill Run misses. Aaaaagh. Also a Banded Breloom gets a very lucky high roll on Bullet Seed, which may have cost me the match.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-199476049

Fun match. I make some bad plays, they make some bad plays, luck plays a factor, but overall it's a good match.


So this isn't every match I've done with this team, but it's most of them, and at this point I feel I have a decent handle on some things.

First, lemme talk about the obvious thing.

MEGA BEE

First: the bad news.

Mega Beedrill is still really fragile. I've actually seen it survive the occasional Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, or Shadow Sneak, but you can basically assume Sucker Punch=death. More alarmingly, Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave is doubly super effective against it, so even Pokemon with relatively poor offenses that get one of the two can reliably OHKO Mega Beedrill before it gets a move in. Make sure to double-check that the Pokemon you're thinking of bringing the Bee in on doesn't get either! Pursuit-trapping also presents a severe problem -if you're faced with a Tyranitar, don't U-Turn or switch, either scout it out with Protect or just slam it with Poison Jab on the assumption it's either Pursuing you or Dragon Dancing and you should just get in as much damage as possible as fast as possible.

Grass is the only type that walls both of Mega Beedrill's STABs, but Grass is also the overall best type in Inverse, so that presents a legitimate problem. It's also doubly weak to Grass, so even weak coverage will OHKO it effortlessly -Gothitelle does surprisingly crap damage with Psychic to Mega Beedrill, but any Gothitelle running Energy Ball will annihilate it just fine. So even having Drill Run doesn't mean Mega Beedrill is on top of the situation -anything with Grass coverage (And remember: Grass coverage is valuable in Inverse, so they'll actually be running it!) that isn't vulnerable to Drill Run or your STABs is a huge threat. Not even getting into Carnivine.

It's still very, very difficult to switch in Mega Beedrill. I turned to a slow Volt Switcher to be able to get it back into the fight, and it's still tricky. I might bring in Pangoro for Parting Shot instead -Fighting/Dark is actually a really good type in Inverse, and slow Parting Shot could be another way to get Mega Beedrill back in the fight safely.

Now for the good news!

Firstly, Beedrill's Speed tier is much less maddening in Inverse than in Standard. So many of the 76+ things in Standard that are, er, standard, don't show up in Inverse for their own reasons, and haven't been replaced by other things, that it's a lot more plausible for Beedrill to just do something that very first turn, rather than Protecting and hoping the enemy doesn't set Stealth Rock or something. (You should still run Protect, if only so you can absorb Mega Lopunny's Fake Out before murdering it with U-Turn or anticipating a switch and using whatever you think is best) This makes it considerably more viable as an extremely threatening lead, albeit a team that lacks slow Volt Switch/U-Turn/Parting Shot/Baton Pass will have an extremely difficult time getting it back in via anything except revenge-switching.

Secondly, Mega Beedrill is great for threatening a surprising number of good/important Pokemon in Inverse -its Poison Jab does hideous damage to Diggersby

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 484-572 (155.1 - 183.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tyranitar

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gothitelle

252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gothitelle: 146-172 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

while its U-Turn is a clean OHKO on Mega Lopunny and, indeed, most Fighting types you might care to name, and its Drill Run (When it doesn't miss) is plenty effective on most Grass types. (The part Poison ones, such as Mega Venusaur, can be smacked with a Poison Jab or a U-Turn)

It's really too bad the only Pokemon capable of Wish-passing via a move are all either crappy, too fast, or forced to rely on Baton Pass (Eeveelutions, basically: maybe Glaceon could be good?), because it's basically impossible to patch up Mega Beedrill, which is disappointing when it can only take a single neutral priority hit without any recovery.

But Mega Beedrill is overall surprisingly good, just very easy to screw up and get it killed to no payoff. Remember: you can Protect for scouting!

Now, how about

Shadow Tag Goth Chick

Gothitelle is really really scary in Inverse -a lot more than I'd ever realized. If Avalugg isn't carrying Roar, than a Physically Defensive Gothitelle can reliably trap and kill it with no risk at all -Mega Beedrill is a great combination with Gothitelle, able to U-Turn on switched-in Avalugg and then Gothitelle comes in and traps Avalugg, or whatever it is you've got trapped. And since only Fighting and Psychic types are a real threat to Gothitelle, they can't switch in literally the best type for countering Gothitelle -any Fighting type they switch in will just die to U-Turn!

Just for the fact that Gothitelle exists means you either need Roar on your Avalugg or have to be prepared to be very sparing with it in some portion of your matches -specifically, any in which Gothitelle is on the enemy team. This sucks, since Avalugg would really like to run Ice STAB, Earthquake for dealing with Grass and Flying types, Rapid Spin, and Recover, so Roar is going to force out something important on your Avalugg.

Really, I'm going to have to do more matches and feel out Gothitelle better -but I will note that it survives a Tyranitar's Superpower in one of my matches, albeit only barely. But Gothitelle is, I suspect, a very important Pokemon to Inverse, much more so than most players realize.

Friendly Anglerfish

Really, I'm running it mostly for the slow Volt Switch, which it's like the only option for. But it also gives me an anti-Grass Pokemon, an anti-Water Pokemon (Water Absorb!), and a second way to get Gothitelle in to trap and kill enemies. It's also a cleric, which has been quite useful. I just wish Lanturn's Physical bulk wasn't so godawful.

Terrakion/Virizion

Still trying to feel out what the best option for this slot is. Terrakion was almost impossible to get in safely, and was basically on a suicide mission anytime I did switch it in, while Virizion is a bit underpowered -but I haven't gotten a good feel for how to use it, so I haven't replaced it yet. (My biggest complaint with it is that Choice Banded Technician Mach Punch Breloom can 2HKO it reliably, meaning I can't just switch it in as a counter)

Pokeball Mushroom

Regenerator is awesome, and it's just too bad all the Regenerators have problematic typings for Inverse. 99% of the time I wish Amoonguss wasn't Poison typed -it would work a lot better. The other thing I wish it got was a switching move, but alas, no. Frankly I mostly use Amoonguss to sponge hits and force switches -which can open up an opportunity to slip in Mega Beedrill, if I'm clever.

Avalugg

Here to sponge Physical hits and sometimes kill things. Also here to clear hazards. Really, anything I could say about Avalugg has probably been better said by other people -though just like Amoonguss, I can use it as an opportunity to slip in Mega Beedrill, if I anticipate my opponent's switch timing correctly. (It's usually fairly predictable -the bigger question is how badly does Avalugg need a turn to Rapid Spin or Recover?)

Yeah not my greatest post, but I'm still getting a feel for the team -I don't think I've really gotten a full grasp on how it works and how to play it well, which is actually nice. Now if only the ladder had more talent in it.

EDIT: Yeah my post sucks.

OK first: I didn't convey how big a deal Gothitelle is. It breaks Chanslugg. It can trap and kill Chansey. Barring something odd like Serene Grace Body Slam Chansey getting really lucky, Gothitelle can Taunt+Rest to force it to burn through all its Seismic Toss PP and then Struggle itself to death. 100% reliably. It's not like Chansey has Whirlwind to force it out partway through its Rest, or whatever, and max HP Leftovers Gothitelle has enough HP to survive continuous Seismic Toss while still slipping in a Taunt just to ensure you don't slip in a Thunder Wave or something, and then Rest, while you're forced to use 2 Seismic Toss PP, bare minimum.

Meanwhile Avalugg without Roar is almost 2HKOed by Gothitelle when it has no investment in Special Attack. It could potentially use a combination of Recover and attacking to take down Gothitelle, except wait, Taunt. Seriously, Gothitelle with

Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- anything
- Taunt
- Rest

is ready to take down Chanslugg right there. Holy crap.

I also forgot to cover the point that Mega Beedrill can actually take a Brave Bird from Talonflame -only one, and only if it's not boosted by Swords Dance, and U-Turn from Talonflame is a clean OHKO on Mega Beedrill, so if Beedrill and Talonflame lead against each other, it's a matter of prediction who comes out ahead, but it's still noteworthy, because it means Talonflame is not a clean stop to Mega Beedrill unless Mega Beedrill has been weakened previously -even Banded Talonflame isn't a sure kill!

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 237-279 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Seriously.

My failure to talk much about Amoonguss, on the other hand, is an accurate reflection of how much there is to talk about it. I honestly usually only use one or two of its moves over the course of a match -the main thing it does is soak damage and switch.

EDIT2: Yeah I'm dumb. Taunt means Gothitelle can block Roar, so Roar only works as a way to prevent Gothitelle from switching in, not a proper answer. So yeah, Gothitelle is Chanslugg's death, right there.
 
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Finally something to post in this thread.

I've discussed about this before, but now that Greninja is banned in OU, does it mean it's banned in here as well? Inverse used OU banlist by default, but I don't think Greninja is broken in Inverse just as it is in OU.

Also the Inverse Viability Ranking thread seem to be dead.
 
I would like to propose a ban of Serperior. We all know that it recently gained access to the ability Contrary, letting it easily boost its attack to insane levels with STAB Leaf Storms. Unlike other boosters, it doesn't have to choose between attacking and boosting and its boosting is not stopped by Taunt. Its boosting even has 195 base power factoring in STAB. Grass also happens to be a very good offensive type in inverse. Serperior has almost no incentive not to simply spam Leaf Storms again and again. About the only thing that counters is Chansey, which is still 2HKOed at +6. Sure somethings such as Mega Lopunny may be able to switch into a Leaf Storm once and revenge, but Serperior can just switch out into something else. It is a little weak at first but easily becomes more powerful by just attacking. Offense will usually have to sack something off to be able to revenge it, and stall will usually have a hard time walling it if their Chansey is dead/weakened harshly. Please consider a ban for this menace.
 
After testing Serperior on many battles, I don't think that Serperior should be banned. "WTF ARE YOU CRAZY?" Yes. I'll list some that make me think Serperior isn't banworthy. These are just my opinion. Feel free to disagree if you think these arguments are flawed. All of the things I write below are based on experience and anlaysis.

I'll compare this to Diggersby, which, in my opinion, in the same league as this.
1. Serperior doesn't have one major thing that makes it get easily revenge killed. It's called priority. One of the main reasons that Mega Medicham is in A+ viability ranking, despite being slow, is because of dual priority in Fake Out + Bullet Punch that enable it revenge killing things like Mega Manectric, Galvantula, Greninja despite being slower. Serperior doesn't have that. Because of that, it got easily revenge killed by Scarfers and some pokes.
"But priorities has low base power." Yes, I know, but Diggersby can sweep with unresisted Quick Attack. Because Quick Attack is a priority, this makes Diggersby can't be revenge killed easily. Proof?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 305-360 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 231-274 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (Guaranteed if Stealth Rock)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 230-270 (79 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock/1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-313 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO if Stealth Rocks, which are not really common, but useful for breaking sashes and Multiscale in Dragonite)
These are some of the most common things who will revenge kill Serperior naturally or using Scarf, but all of them can't revenge Diggersby if hazard is present, which will be used often in offensive teams.

Some pokes that outspeed it naturally (without Scarf):
Greninja
Mega Lopunny
Mega Sceptile
Ambipom
Mega Manectric
Mega Beedrill
Alakazam and Mega Alakazam
Yes, Diggersby need a turn to use Swords Dance, but after a Swords Dance, it pretty much impossible to stop this thing. While Serperior can hit hard before getting to +2, the lack of priority makes this easily get revenge killed. Diggerby alos gets Agility too boost its Speed, which will outspeed Scarfers and hit them with +0 Life Orb Return/Frustration (it hits harder than +2 Quick Attack)

2. "Nothing can switch in at +(insert number here that isn't 0) to this thing unless you sack a poke." Yes, but that goes the same to Diggersby. Who want to switch to Diggesby's Return/Frustration beside Avalugg, even at +0? Also, Serperior needs to hold Life Orb and go to +6 Special Attack to 2HKO Chansey. This means it has to survive some Seismic Toss or expect a Toxic/Thunder Wave (unless you sub, which will get easily broken by Seismic Toss). While Diggersby only needs one Swords Dance to 2HKO Avalugg with Return/Frustration, so basically Avalugg can't do anything besides Roar to wall it, while Chansey can weaken Serperior with Seismic Toss or status it.

3. Unlike Normal, Grass actually has something that resist it. Also Grass has four fairly common weaknesses (Ground, Water, Electric, Grass itself) that makes it easier to be revenged. Also Sap Sipper exist. Because of this, there are things that can actually switch in to this poke.
Rhyperior: The EV spread is taken directly from Dex analysis. It's Adamant 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 SpD
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 203-240 (46.8 - 55.4%)
So it can switch into a Leaf Storm (which only does around 12-14%) and 1HKO it with Earthquake. And this poke is a viable option and it isn't "it suks because of Normal weakness."
Goodra: This thing got Sap Sipper. I know that Serperior got Gastro Acid to nullify Goodra's weakness, but consider this:
252+ Atk Goodra Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 208-246 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, while
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 120-143 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO.
Gastro Acid needs one turn and Serp got hit by Earthquake. After Serp used some two Leaf Storms, it'll die because of Life Orb recoil.
Greninja: Outspeed and revenge it.

There are some more pokes that can take a hit and hit back, mainly faster pokes (including Scarfers) and strong Aqua Jet users.

TL;DR in my opinion (and based on experience) Diggersby is harder to handle than Serperior. So if Serperior considered to be banned, Diggersby also need to be considered.
 
TL;DR in my opinion (and based on experience) Diggersby is harder to handle than Serperior. So if Serperior considered to be banned, Diggersby also need to be considered.
js, Diggs already has been considered for banning but for whatever reason OM ppl have this weird idea that metas will fall apart without the presence of Diggs.
 
I'm going to agree with Chopin Alkaninoff that Diggersby is banworthy and should probably be resuspected.

I also think Serperior is absolutely broken, and really needs a ban.

I already covered most of why Serperior is so dangerous in this post:

So Serperior is coming out soon...


Devastator (Serperior) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Gastro Acid / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Substitute / Hidden Power [Fire]

While in standard it looks to end up BL or so, this thing seems completely and utterly broken in Inverse considering the only things that can really stand up to it are sap sippers, which have a very hard time dealing with gastro acid, and sub-par resists. It doesn't really require any additional coverage bar grass considering both how grass resists are awfully mediocre, but Hidden Power [Fire] is still an option for hitting Water and Rock types slightly harder. Your counters are pretty much limited to things like specially defensive water types, dual sap sipper cores, and Tyranitar (Perhaps the only viable option, and the one most prone to being trapped by Gothitelle).

Here are some of the most common resists in the tier and how they fare against Serperior (Keep in mind 33,3%+ is a 2HKO):

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 120-140 (32 - 37.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 155-183 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO (Can OHKO back with Aqua Jet, but can only switch into one Leaf Storm)
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 144-172 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 104-123 (32.1 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 104-123 (32.1 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

So, basically, there is nothing offensive teams can reliably switch into this thing bar Tyranitar, and while stall teams are better off and have a fair amount of counters, they will have to run sub-par stuff to even think of standing up to it. Choice scarf is also a possibility that utterly tramples over most offensive team in the metagame in exchange for the inability to touch sap sippers.

I know it's not released yet so I won't cry for a ban yet, but I see very little doubt in my mind that this will end up overwhelming for the tier when it is.
The main reason I think it's broken is while it can be walled, nearly all of its counters bar a few are unviable in the current metagame. While Serperior isn't as strong against hyper offense since that team archetype can revenge it, Balanced and Stall teams don't have that luxury and are forced to run one of the few checks it has which makes them suffer.

Viable
Gogoat - A decent counter to nearly all grass types that has always been pretty good, but it has to watch out for Gastro Acid Serperior.
Rhyperior - Probably the most viable counter, Solid Rock and giant defense mitigate the normal weakness which makes it a pretty good tank. Despite Solid Rock it doesn't stand up well against normal spam though.

Somewhat Viable
Miltank - A decent physical wall, but you want to be using Avalugg instead. For this reason it's only really viably run alongside Avalugg, but 2 physical walls is rather hard to pull off in the current metagame.
Bouffalant - A good offensive counter, but it's just outclassed by Diggersby bar beating Serperior.
Tyranitar - Not horrible wth a scarf, but still slow and destroyed by normal spam.

Unviable
Goodra - Bad defense in such a physically oriented metagame and few redeeming qualities to make up for it.
Sawsbuck - Horrible stats
Suicune - It's not completely horrible, but it has no niche that really makes it worth using
Quagsire - Bad typing and as an Unaware user can't stand up to the most common set-up sweepers in the tier

Being forced to run one of the few counters readily available just so you don't get 6-0'd by Serperior is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. The only viable option available that deals with Serp at the moment is hyper offense and priority spam, and honestly I don't think those make for a very healthy metagame.

EDIT: It beats Chansey, if you thought that was a counter:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/customgame-194939070
 
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Serperior: Abstain
Diggersby: Do Not Ban

While my reasoning is pretty much pro-ban Diggersby, I think Diggersby is necessary to keep Avalugg balanced, because of Shed Shell Avalugg. Shed Shell pretty much invalidate Goth and Wobb as hard stop for Avalugg, and the only good Knock Off user beside Diggersby is Mega Beedrill, Ambipom, and Mega Gallade (I doubt Ambipom and Mega Gallade is that good). If Diggersby is banned, you are pretty much forced to bring Kyurem-N or Melloetta to actually have a chance against Chanslugg core, or you have to waste a moveslot in your mixed attacker for Ice Beam, which has no coverage in Inverse. And if you think random mixed attackers can break through Avalugg... No.

4 SpA Dragonite Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 146-174 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dragonite's Ice Beam won't 2HKO Specially Devensive Avalugg (which will probably be common if Diggersby is banned) and Avalugg can retaliate with Earthquake.

I have no good arguments to keep Serperior around and will look for one. I will vote later for Serperior.
 
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Serperior: BAN
Diggersby: BAN

These threats are so overcentralising at the moment. I personally don't think Diggersby balancing out Avalugg is a good argument. If these two threats get banned and the metagame becomes something undesirably, then we can suspect more threats deemed overcentralising or overpowered.
 
While my reasoning is pretty much pro-ban Diggersby, I think Diggersby is necessary to keep Avalugg balanced, because of Shed Shell Avalugg. Shed Shell pretty much invalidate Goth and Wobb as hard stop for Avalugg, and the only good Knock Off user beside Diggersby is Mega Beedrill, Ambipom, and Mega Gallade (I doubt Ambipom and Mega Gallade is that good). If Diggersby is banned, you are pretty much forced to bring Kyurem-N or Melloetta to actually have a chance against Chanslugg core, or you have to waste a moveslot in your mixed attacker for Ice Beam, which has no coverage in Inverse. And if you think random mixed attackers can break through Avalugg... No.
I have never struggled with Avalugg in Inverse and have never used Diggersby in Inverse. Avalugg does not appreciate Toxic, there are plenty of solid Special Ice attackers to throw at it (And Ice is such a godly typing it's no burden to use them), and Eviolite Chansey and Avalugg both hate Knock Off and Taunt. Also, Dialga and other Ubers have been unbanned, and I've not seen anyone use them as yet. Some quick calcs show that a Bulk Up Dialga can probably humiliate both Avalugg and Eviolite Chansey. Give the de-Ubers a try first. There's also Mega Lucario, Giratina-Altered, Aegislash, and Genesect to fiddle with.

Diggersby meanwhile is resistant to almost all priority, can hit literally everything in the tier for monstrous neutral-or-better damage, is irritatingly fast, and basically Avalugg is it for reliably blocking it from killing everything, especially since it gets Swords Dance and Quick Attack, making it a nightmare to even revenge it successfully. And then there's a big difference between Scarf Diggersby (No you are not outspeeding it) vs non-Scarf. (It used Swords Dance and now you're dead because you thought it was Scarf) It's stupid, and is by far the most egregiously powerful Normal attacker currently, when Normal spam is not counterable with appropriate typing, period.

Avalugg is also just not broken. It's good, yes, but frankly if it weren't really good the meta would be nothing but Physical Normal spam. It's not nearly good enough to be broken.

So yeah my reasoning for Diggersby=ban is that it's a huge Normal spam threat, and not one you can actually counter. After one Swords Dance it 2HKOs Avalugg -if it gets two off somehow, it has a shot at OHKOing Avalugg.

Serperior meanwhile is so self-evidently stupid I'm not sure there's much point to laying out why it needs to go. In particular, lots of stuff can outspeed it unless it's Scarfed at which point there goes any hope of Greninja or whoever taking it out. And it's bulky enough that priority is not actually an answer, barring maybe Banded Aqua Jet Azumarill. (Which by the way is only a 12.5% chance of a OHKO on zero bulk Serperior -and it in turn has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing back with Dragon Pulse after a Leaf Storm, assuming Azumarill didn't suffer said Leaf Storm, in which case that's it, it's dead. What, Sap Sipper Azumarill New Meta?)
 
Diggersby: Abstain
Serperior: Ban

I've never seen a Diggersby in Inverse. Maybe I've just not played it enough. Even so, I'd assume Avalugg would wall it.

Serperior has very few counters and those that do counter it are dead weight otherwise. Although easily revenged, it's impossible to switch into it or for that matter, wall. A ban is well deserved.
 
Diggersby: Abstain
Serperior: Ban

I've never seen a Diggersby in Inverse. Maybe I've just not played it enough. Even so, I'd assume Avalugg would wall it.

Serperior has very few counters and those that do counter it are dead weight otherwise. Although easily revenged, it's impossible to switch into it or for that matter, wall. A ban is well deserved.
actually its SD set(aka its best/most common set) 2HKOs avalugg after one boost and kills most HO mons with quick attack so no avalugg is dedded by its best set.
 
Diggersby: Abstain
Serperior: Ban

I've never seen a Diggersby in Inverse. Maybe I've just not played it enough. Even so, I'd assume Avalugg would wall it.

Serperior has very few counters and those that do counter it are dead weight otherwise. Although easily revenged, it's impossible to switch into it or for that matter, wall. A ban is well deserved.
How does someone play IB without seeing Diggersby? o.o
 

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