Ladder Inverse Battle

wishes

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#76
Wait I have one concern with anti-arguments and it's the whole "keeping the metagame glued together" thing. I truly don't believe this is a good standard on deciding what to ban and what not to ban; let's look at the Aegislash suspect for example. Many considered banning it would completely break the metagame and that Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir would be banned soon after with nothing checking them. Look at them now. The metagame adapts and just because a Pokemon keeps things in check does not make it any less broken. I personally don't have a side I'm choosing, I just think that the entire anti-ban argument revolving around checking other things is flawed.
 
#77
Wait I have one concern with anti-arguments and it's the whole "keeping the metagame glued together" thing. I truly don't believe this is a good standard on deciding what to ban and what not to ban; let's look at the Aegislash suspect for example. Many considered banning it would completely break the metagame and that Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir would be banned soon after with nothing checking them. Look at them now. The metagame adapts and just because a Pokemon keeps things in check does not make it any less broken. I personally don't have a side I'm choosing, I just think that the entire anti-ban argument revolving around checking other things is flawed.
The difference between Avalugg in Inverse Battle and Aegislash in OU is that Aegislash wasn't the only Pokemon that checked specific threats. We literally have nothing else to wall many powerful physical attackers in the current meta, such as Diggersby.
 

wishes

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#78
The difference between Avalugg in Inverse Battle and Aegislash in OU is that Aegislash wasn't the only Pokemon that checked specific threats. We literally have nothing else to wall many powerful physical attackers in the current meta, such as Diggersby.
That's what I'm saying, though. Many people thought we had absolutely no counters to Mega Heracross or Mega Gardevoir, yet they're there; the metagame adapts. And if Diggersby becomes such a problem, then why not ban it as well? Also, I feel like you should test out some new megas and such because Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, and Mega Slowbro all look like reasonable megas to wall it. For example:

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO [Return is 9%]
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 65-77 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 145-172 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Mega Slowbro has higher physical bulk than Avalugg for example. These are just three things, but I'm sure the metagame will find more if you give it time.
 
#79
Remember that there are plenty of strong physical attackers other than Diggersby like CB Reckless Staraptor, Toxic Boost Zangoose, Guts Ursaring, Mega Medicham, SD Mega Gallade. Without Avalugg, those things will be uncontrollable, since Mega Slowbro is weak to Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade's STAB.

Edit: Also, Mega Altaria and Mega Sableye are also weak to one of Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade's STAB. Mega Sableye's also weak to Normal.

What I'm trying to say is, Avalugg is pretty much the only thing I find that holds the tier together. Kl4ng already posted the calcs of some of the pokemons above vs Cresselia, and all of them 2HKOs. If Avalugg got banned, there will be much more things got banned to fix the tier.
 
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#80
That's what I'm saying, though. Many people thought we had absolutely no counters to Mega Heracross or Mega Gardevoir, yet they're there; the metagame adapts. And if Diggersby becomes such a problem, then why not ban it as well? Also, I feel like you should test out some new megas and such because Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, and Mega Slowbro all look like reasonable megas to wall it. For example:

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO [Return is 9%]
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 65-77 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 145-172 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Mega Slowbro has higher physical bulk than Avalugg for example. These are just three things, but I'm sure the metagame will find more if you give it time.
Altaria and Sableye cannot wall Diggersby due to it carrying a Life Orb or a Choice Band in almost all cases. Honestly, Mega Slowbro and Avalugg are the only Pokemon that can wall a large amount of physical attackers in the current meta. There's really much to say that hasn't been mentioned already regarding the problems with walling physical attackers in this meta.
 
#81
That's what I'm saying, though. Many people thought we had absolutely no counters to Mega Heracross or Mega Gardevoir, yet they're there; the metagame adapts. And if Diggersby becomes such a problem, then why not ban it as well? Also, I feel like you should test out some new megas and such because Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, and Mega Slowbro all look like reasonable megas to wall it. For example:

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO [Return is 9%]
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 65-77 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 145-172 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Mega Slowbro has higher physical bulk than Avalugg for example. These are just three things, but I'm sure the metagame will find more if you give it time.
Everything you need to know about how there aren't any new counters to find is in this post:

As for the Avalugg suspect, just...no. Your intentions are in the right place, but banning it would incur horrible consequences. Like a every team would need to run Mega Slowbro level of disastrous (even then it's still going to have huge problems compared to Avalugg). I mean, Mega Slowbro is the only other significant physically defensive thing in the tier that isn't weak to Normal. To reinforce my point, please read through the link below and count how many of the Pokemon in the top 30 for highest defense stat are weak to normal:

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/stat/defense.shtml

I'm a nice guy so I'll save you the trouble. 23 out of 30 are them are weak to normal, 3 of them are Ubers, and one of them is Avalugg. That leaves 3 remaining, and the trend of rock/steel types dominating the list continues further down.

So barring Slowbro, let's see how those other Pokemon take on, say, Diggersby:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 205-243 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Not in top 30 but it's cress)

This isn't even considering the fact that Slowbro and all of these Pokemon except Cresselia have complete shit typings.. Like, you need Slowbro despite the bad typing to have a sliver of a chance against normal types. Every other physical wall is pure garbage.

And no, Diggersby is not the broken one. Here are some calcs on Cresselia from other renowned physical Pokemon, that, while not necessarily normal type, will be able to wreck shit without Avalugg. Keep in mind apart from Slowbro this is best physical wall there is:

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 238-282 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 220-259 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 246-291 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I assumed a neutral hit to prove a point, normally cress is just OHKO'd)


TL;DR: if you want to ban Avalugg get ready to ban a ton of stuff because this Metagame will take a gigantic turn for the worse without it. It will make STABmons look like a stally tier. Seriously.
As for the calcs you posted:

1. Sableye is weak to Return.
2. None of your calculations include a Choice Band, which is one of the most popular sets, up there with Swords Dance.

Which means the only relevant counter you bring up is Slowbro. I address Slowbro in this post that I made as the only choice band Diggersby counter, but keep in mind Slowbro has many crippling weaknesses because its outstanding typing in Standard becomes crippling in Inverse.

EDIT: Adrian you ninja!
 
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wishes

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#82
Everything you need to know about how there aren't any new counters to find is in this post:



As for the calcs you posted:

1. Sableye is weak to Return.
2. None of your calculations include a Choice Band, which is one of the most popular sets, up there with Swords Dance.

EDIT: Adrian you ninja!
Again, I don't even play Inverse lol which is why I'm just offering suggestions n-n, dunno its sets. Also,

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 129-152 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sableye is kill, however, unless not running Choice Band but w/e.
 
#83
Speaking of physical walls, other than Mega Slowbro, can anyone please post calcs of Staraptor CB Reckless Double Edge, CB Diggersby Return, Guts Ursaring Facade, Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs max HP/Def Eviolite Porygon2 and -1 Attack (due to Intimidate) of the attacking pokemons to max HP/Def Arcanine? I'm not on PC so doing calcs are kinda hard.
 

wishes

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#84
Speaking of physical walls, other than Mega Slowbro, can anyone please post calcs of Staraptor CB Reckless Double Edge, CB Diggersby Return, Guts Ursaring Facade, Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs max HP/Def Eviolite Porygon2 and -1 Attack (due to Intimidate) of the attacking pokemons to max HP/Def Arcanine? I'm not on PC so doing calcs are kinda hard.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 171-202 (45.7 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 195-229 (52.1 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 186-219 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 178-211 (46.4 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 208-246 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind that Intimidate technically cancels Choice Band because it's +1.5 - 1.5, or 0.
 
#85
Thanks. That's actually... not that good IMO.

I forgot to include Stealth Rock in that request, but if Stealth Rock is on the field, Porygon2 is guaranteed to be 2HKO'd by all of those hits and Arcanine needs to be lucky to live some of those hits. Also both of them can't Rapid Spin the Rocks like Avalugg. Still not an option IMO.
 
#86
Thanks. That's actually... not that good IMO.

I forgot to include Stealth Rock in that request, but if Stealth Rock is on the field, Porygon2 is guaranteed to be 2HKO'd by all of those hits and Arcanine needs to be lucky to live some of those hits. Also both of them can't Rapid Spin the Rocks like Avalugg. Still not an option IMO.
No one uses stealth rock here. They do use spikes sometimes tho
 
#87
Okay. This time I'll share a pokemon that has been giving me many free wins. Looking for a sweeper and a Chanslugg breaker? Unlike the Choice Scarf set, this thing can function as both

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb/Silk Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 80 Def/252 SpA/176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Agility
- Tri Attack/Uproar
- Psyshock/Recover

I don't know why Porygon-Z got suspected in Type Control metagame, because it needs two moves at least to have near-perfect coverage. While here, it needs only one move to achieve perfect coverage. After 1 Agility, it outspeeds almost all Pokemon even when holding a Scarf. Silk Scarf is if you don't run Psyshock or you don't like Life Orb recoil.

How about Chansey?

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 338-399 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Nasty Plot is if you vs Chanslugg teams and Agility if you vs fast offensive teams. Both works. Also, if you worry Porygon-Z can't tank priorities, don't worry.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Porygon-Z: 118-139 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Porygon-Z: 129-152 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Porygon-Z: 153-181 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

So it can tank at least 1 priority and all of the pokemon above got 1HKOd by Tri Attack/Uproar at +0. All it needs to worry is Choice Band Extremespeed from Dragonite.
In my experience, this thing kills at least 1 or more pokes whenever it's used, especially when I am using my own Chanslugg team.
 
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#88
My thoughts on possible Chanslugg ban: why isn't Diggersby being suggested instead? Sure Chansey and Avalugg are overcentralizing, but they aren't really that hard to beat. Most anything with Taunt and recovery does that. Mixed attackers do that. The core is also laughably passive. The most threatening attack you will see is a Return from Avalugg. The real problem is Diggersby, which just kills stall. Stall has a hard time even with Avalugg, but ban Avalugg and the whole thing falls apart. As unfixable said, there are a few things that beat it. Mega Slowbro (who is pulled down by terrible typing and loses to SD anyway), Mega Altaria (loses to SD and CB and can lose even without item if Stealth Rocks are up), and thats all he listed. Kl4ng mentions more.
I'll start off by saying that since jeran had outplayed me and killed off My Volc counters that the battle in question would have kept going on around 10 turns if I put on maximum resistance.
I'm a nice guy so I'll save you the trouble. 23 out of 30 are them are weak to normal, 3 of them are Ubers, and one of them is Avalugg. That leaves 3 remaining, and the trend of rock/steel types dominating the list continues further down.

So barring Slowbro, let's see how those other Pokemon take on, say, Diggersby:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 205-243 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Not in top 10 but it's cress)
Slowbro was already listed, Torkoal (loses to SD and CB), and Cresselia (has to stay at very high health for CB and is beaten by SD). I don't see any counters. All I see is a very broken pokemon who would become even more broken if its best answer was banned. Chansey is literally what it is in OU except Keldeo no longer murders it. Seriously, people just need to branch out. Please consider a Diggersby ban. It is unhealthy and makes a whole playstyle practically unviable.
 
#89
My thoughts on possible Chanslugg ban: why isn't Diggersby being suggested instead? Sure Chansey and Avalugg are overcentralizing, but they aren't really that hard to beat. Most anything with Taunt and recovery does that. Mixed attackers do that. The core is also laughably passive. The most threatening attack you will see is a Return from Avalugg. The real problem is Diggersby, which just kills stall. Stall has a hard time even with Avalugg, but ban Avalugg and the whole thing falls apart. As unfixable said, there are a few things that beat it. Mega Slowbro (who is pulled down by terrible typing and loses to SD anyway), Mega Altaria (loses to SD and CB and can lose even without item if Stealth Rocks are up), and thats all he listed. Kl4ng mentions more.

Slowbro was already listed, Torkoal (loses to SD and CB), and Cresselia (has to stay at very high health for CB and is beaten by SD). I don't see any counters. All I see is a very broken pokemon who would become even more broken if its best answer was banned. Chansey is literally what it is in OU except Keldeo no longer murders it. Seriously, people just need to branch out. Please consider a Diggersby ban. It is unhealthy and makes a whole playstyle practically unviable.
You think only Diggersby who has no counters if Avalugg was banned? What about Mega Medicham and SD Mega Gallade? Mega Slowbro, Mega Altaria and Cresselia are all weak to their STABs. As for Torkoal

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 201-237 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 265-313 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Avalugg can also lose to SD Mega Gallade if it carry Ice Punch

I say Diggersby is not the broken one. It's just Avalugg is pretty much the only thing that can make stall viable. Both Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade also have priorities and faster than Diggersby.
 
#91
Maybe Furfrou is viable? It's not 2HKOd by CB Diggersby.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 159-187 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
#92
You think only Diggersby who has no counters if Avalugg was banned? What about Mega Medicham and SD Mega Gallade? Mega Slowbro, Mega Altaria and Cresselia are all weak to their STABs. As for Torkoal

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 201-237 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 265-313 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Avalugg can also lose to SD Mega Gallade if it carry Ice Punch

I say Diggersby is not the broken one. It's just Avalugg is pretty much the only thing that can make stall viable. Both Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade also have priorities and faster than Diggersby.
Maybe Furfrou is viable? It's not 2HKOd by CB Diggersby.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 159-187 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
plz never calc torkoal or furfrou again.
 
#93
If banning is out of the question for the two or so people who currently play this, maybe we should revisit some Ubers. Kyurem-W, Deoxys, Skymin?
Any news on this front Eevee General? Dialga and Giratina are still kind of grayish in the eyes of the community, but nobody I've spoken to has any problems with MLuke/Aegis/Genesect/MMaw unbans and I think it's pretty safe to allow them at this point.


So this post isn't just to tag EG, I'll expand some of my thoughts on Dialga / Giratina.


Resistances: Fighting, Ground
Weaknesses: Bug, Electric, Flying, Grass, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water, Poison

The truckload of weaknesses it has, in addition to its rather average base speed, make it a very easy unban in my opinion. It will be very difficult for it to manage much against offence without a scarf (which will probably be its only viable set), and with the addition of that it becomes hard walled by Chansey. It is also, in my opinion, rather outclassed by Kyurem, who while sacrificing some special attack, has slightly higher attack for mixed sets, a fantastic typing in comparison, a higher base speed, and roughly the same level of bulk.

It has a very strong Draco Meteor but that's about it really.



Resistances: Dark, Dragon, Fairy, Ghost, Ice
Weaknesses: Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Poison, Water, Fighting, Normal

While not to the extent of Dialga, Giratina's typing screws it over quite a bit. Unlike Dialga though, it's offences are rather underwhelming, which means it will neither be an amazing wall or an amazing attacker, but a mix of both. It's still got the bulk to take super effective hits without much investment, and given some offensive investment and 2 great STABs that can let it break through ChansLugg with both Shadow Force and Draco Meteor it will be a decent Inverse Pokemon in my opinion, but not broken. It's even got nifty priority in Shadow Sneak.

However, I think that if Giratina is dropped, Griseous Orb should definitely be banned.

Due to the fact that Griseous Orb powers up the only two types of moves it really needs to wreck things, in addition to raising the only thing that would allow it to drop in the first place, it's offences, make Giratina-Origin an utter terror to face. Between Shadow Force, Shadow Sneak, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Tail, not to mention the ability to invest in both offensive stats since it doesn't need that much speed anyway, I could imagine it completely destroying stall as a playstyle by OHKOing both Chansey and Avalugg (!!!) and putting in huge work against offence too. Basically the definition of broken really. Here are some calcs to reinforce my point:

252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 644-762 (100.3 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
180 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 420-495 (106.8 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 218-258 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 360-428 (81.6 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 254-302 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



TL;DR: Unban Dialga, Unban Giratina, Ban Griseous Orb

I look forward to hearing other people's thoughts on these two Ubers.
 
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EV

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#94
Thanks for your awesome post, Kl4ng ! I'll unban Lucarionite, Aegislash, Genesect, and Mawilite soon unless anyone has any life-threatening objections. I'll keep Dialga and Giratina under consideration, too, though I think you're selling Dialga short. Sure, it will have a hard time switching in, but it has good coverage so I still see it getting work done, even outside Scarf sets. Probably not broken, but still useful.
 
#95
Tbh I kind of agree with the decision to unban Dialga/Giratina, despite being extreme.

For Dialga, despite having 680 BST, I don't see anything broken in it, just like Kyurem-B in OU. Dialga's typing in Inverse Battle is worse than Kyurem B in OU. Even though this thing has a very strong Draco Meteor, it's kinda slow, so it'll probably need a Scarf.

Some calcs if it runs bulk (not necessarily max/max bulk though) against some possibly common Normal types

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Pressure Dialga: 410 - 486 (101.5 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Pressure Dialga: 422 - 500 (104.5 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Last Resort vs. 252 HP/4 Def Leftovers Pressure Dialga: 421 - 499 (104.2 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers
252+ SpAtk Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP/4 SpDef Leftovers Pressure Dialga: 392 - 464 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers

That's just 2x weakness, meaning it can't take the so common Grass attacks at all. So there is no point in running bulk in Dialga. Also for offensive sets, Porygon2 and Chansey hard walls it (It'll need to run Specs to 2HKO Physically Defensive (not Specially) Porygon2 with Draco Meteor). And not just those two. Cresselia also walls the non Specs variant, while Goodra can tank hits not named Fire Blast.

For Giratina, it has 8 weaknesses, which is bad as a wall. It doesn't have as many weaknesses as Dialga, but a pokemon with 8 weaknesses and underwhelming offenses aren't doing much, meaning it's easily breakable. Because of many Giratina's weakness are, and most of them are common types, I think people will worry more about breaking Chanslugg than Giratina. I'd say test this out and compare this to walls like Chanslugg, Cresselia, Porygon2.

And also, I'm not saying should unban this, but how good Deoxys D in Inverse Battle if it's not banned? Due to unblockable Rapid Spin, it's easier to remove hazards, but still got those tanky Defenses and a not bad Psychic typing.
 
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#96
For Giratina, it has 8 weaknesses, which is bad as a wall. It doesn't have as many weaknesses as Dialga, but a pokemon with 8 weaknesses and underwhelming offenses aren't doing much, meaning it's easily breakable. Because of many Giratina's weakness are, and most of them are common types, I think people will worry more about breaking Chanslugg than Giratina. I'd say test this out and compare this to walls like Chanslugg, Cresselia, Porygon2.
Do you have any opinion on Griseous Orb and Giratina-O, though? It's likely the main forme that's going to be used if Giratina is unbanned, and in my opinion is far more dangerous than the Altered forme is for reasons I outlined in my post. It aims to do damage instead of wall, and it gets all the tools it needs to break almost everything.
 
#97
Do you have any opinion on Griseous Orb and Giratina-O, though? It's likely the main forme that's going to be used if Giratina is unbanned, and in my opinion is far more dangerous than the Altered forme is for reasons I outlined in my post. It aims to do damage instead of wall, and it gets all the tools it needs to break almost everything.
For Griseous Orb, I actually don't know what to say.

It doesn't just beat Chanslugg combo. It also beats Porygon2 1v1.

252+ Atk Griseous Orb Levitate Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Trace Porygon2: 254 - 300 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpAtk Griseous Orb Levitate Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP/4 SpDef Eviolite Trace Porygon2: 159 - 187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpAtk Eviolite Analytic Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP/0 SpDef Griseous Orb Levitate Giratina-O: 236 - 278 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meaning it can just Shadow Force the first turn, then use Draco Meteor the next turn.
So the only option to stall Giratina-O is by using Cresselia.

It also has Levitate, meaning it can't be touched by Spikes/Toxic Spikes, and it can Switch to Earthquakes.

BUT, The main drawback of using Griseous Orb is it can't hold Scarf, meaning it can't upgrade it's low Speed and needs to rely on the weak Shadow Sneak to outspeed or take a hit before hitting back. Because of it's reduced bulk and low speed, pokes like Life Orb Keldeo, Staraptor can easily outspeed and 1HKO it (Shadow Sneak doesn't 1HKO Staraptor). Also if it isn't running enough speed, Diggersby can outspeed it or take a Shadow Sneak and 1HKOs it. Not to mention Latios resist it's upgraded STABs and Grass Knot 2HKOs it.

Still, even though it's slow and has lower bulk than it's other form, it's bulk is enough to take a supereffective hit and hit back with Draco Meteor, Earthquake, or Shadow Force.

I say Giratina-O is a terrifying wallbreaker like Kyurem-B in OU, but unlike Kyurem-B, it has the movepool it needs to do something vs offense. And Stall already have very limited option in this metagame, and Giratina-O alone breaks most of them.

Conclusion, I say ban Griseous Orb.
 
#98
The OP needs to be updated to include new bans and unbans.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see Mawilite is being unbanned -I'd come to this thread to suggest maybe it should be unbanned because, seriously, Steel is awful and Mega Mawile is doubly weak to Bug, which is a great offensive type, so I'm glad to see that it's already happened. Same for all the other Steel types being unbanned, because, seriously, Inverse Steel should just be called Tissue Paper.

Giratina-Altered seems probably safe to unban to me, since any vaguely speedy Normal type explodes it effortlessly (Ambipom says hi), in addition to all its other flaws, while yeah, as cool as Origin Forme is, the Griseous Orb probably needs to stay banned to avoid warping the meta.

Dialga I think is probably fine to unban just because it is part Steel. That's pretty damning right there, and Dragon is kind of bad in Inverse too as a defensive type -so basically all Dialga can pull off is aggressive offense, which it's certainly solid at, but not "let's OHKO everything in the tier". (And unbanning it might make Tyrantrum marginally more appealing, since it can switch in on both of Dialga's STABs)

... and then I went and looked for other Ubers to see if any other might be unbannable and was like "no" because, seriously, no. As nice as it would be for Mega Gengar to be legal in some Singles meta, it can trap whatever it feels like, outspeeds most Normal types and then explodes them with 170 Special Attack STAB Shadow Ball, rendering it sort of irrelevant that it's weak to them in turn. Too bad.

But hooray for Inverse getting bans/unbans suiting its own quirks!

Kyu-W on the other hand is just Kyurem-W - it doesn't change that much but the only thing that walls it is Chansey.
It's the only Uber Ice type other than Arceus-Ice. It would be something of a terror in Inverse Ubers, in all likelihood.
 
#99
... and then I went and looked for other Ubers to see if any other might be unbannable and was like "no" because, seriously, no. As nice as it would be for Mega Gengar to be legal in some Singles meta, it can trap whatever it feels like, outspeeds most Normal types and then explodes them with 170 Special Attack STAB Shadow Ball, rendering it sort of irrelevant that it's weak to them in turn. Too bad.
This has been brought up several times before, but what do you think about Deoxys-D? Hazard stacking isn't really important in Inverse Battle and it's not that fast and strong, unlike Deoxys-S. Maybe still have tanky defenses but aside of that I don't find it broken. Just my opinion though.
 
Hazards are weaker in Inverse because Inverse is a very offensive metagame, but my understanding is that Deoxys-Defense got banned from OU because it was just too good at supporting... offensive teams. Personally I'd like to see Inverse get some more balance to it -if there was an Uber that actually supported Stall I'd strongly consider suggesting unbanning it to help balance out the meta, but as far as I'm aware there really isn't. (Or more precisely the one there is -Giratina-Altered- is already up for possibly being unbanned)

Also it suddenly hit me today.



Our lord and savoir Mega Beedrill has a meta it's actually good in! This one. It finally gets full use out of Adaptability (In Standard Poison Jab is literally only good against Fairies, and I'd argue the coverage/utility provided by Knock Off and Drill Run is better) and its offenses are both horrifically good attacking types in Inverse, and the fact that it's still kind of awful as a defensive typing is nowhere near as noticeable -in particular, now it resists frickin' Stealth Rock, letting it U-Turn as many times as it takes to murder everything.

I am in fact building a team around it right now. I love Mega Beedrill.
 

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