Ladder Inverse Battle

#51
Kyurem-B: ban
Snorlax: ban
Diggersby: do not ban

Snorlax in Inverse battles is what GSC Curselax was... except it has effectively no exploitable weaknesses and perfect coverage in one move.
The "no exploitable weaknesses" part needs emphasis, because physical Ghost is more or less crap, and Shadow Ball won't do much against that colossal special bulk. On top of that, if you have STAB on Ghost moves then you're weak to Normal so Snorlax will KO you first unless it's already at very low health.

More on Kyu-B and Diggersby later.
 
#52
Kyurem-B for obvious reasons. Its typing only gives rise to 3 weakness: Electric, Grass and Water, and has the moves and the bulk to take a hit and retaliate. It has Iron Head, Fusion Bolt, Shadow Claw, Zen Headbutt and Dragon Claw/Outrage as notable moves in its great movepool, and Iron Head and Fusion Bolt can handle Pokemon with STAB that can hit Kyurem-White with super effective damage. It mostly uses 2 sets: Bulky and Scarfed, and these two alone can rip apart teams unprepared, and thus I go for Ban
 
#53
As you guys can see, not even an explosion (STAB included) from Diggersby can take down Snorlax, which is something to take note of Also, what w0rd is suggesting is very specific strategies to take down Snorlax, and probably shouldn't even be considered. Destiny Bond? Perish Song? Landorus-T/Rotom-Mow core? If every Inverse player runs these just for Snorlax, wouldn't that make Snorlax overcentralizing?
None of my suggestions need to be on your team specifically for Snorlax. They were things that are viable and good anyway and will beat Snorlax if you see it on the opposing team.
I guess I'll leave this discussion to the experts anyway since I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.
 

EV

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#60
How will the upcoming ORAS changes affect Inverse? Will Ice Punch mean Diggersby can get past Avalugg now? If you think a specific mega has a niche, make sure to share it in the Mega ORAS thread.
 

EV

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#65
All right, this has gone on for far too long. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-188094092
This is the replay from the Inverse daily of jeran v. Kl4ng (aka Stockfish). Both teams are running Chanlugg, Mew, and Tangrowth. This battle could have gone on much longer but Kl4ng forfeits at turn 30.

Anyway, I'm tired of that core on every single team. I'm suspecting Chansey and Avalugg. Mew if we need to also.

Inverse doesn't get a lot of plays. I have a feeling the redundancy of the battles is a big reason why. There just isn't a ton of diversity because that core is so damn effective.

I'll make a decision after a few days or a week, depending on the feedback I get.
 
#66
All right, this has gone on for far too long. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-188094092
This is the replay from the Inverse daily of jeran v. Kl4ng (aka Stockfish). Both teams are running Chanlugg, Mew, and Tangrowth. This battle could have gone on much longer but Kl4ng forfeits at turn 30.

Anyway, I'm tired of that core on every single team. I'm suspecting Chansey and Avalugg. Mew if we need to also.

Inverse doesn't get a lot of plays. I have a feeling the redundancy of the battles is a big reason why. There just isn't a ton of diversity because that core is so damn effective.

I'll make a decision after a few days or a week, depending on the feedback I get.
Reasoning would be really nice ._.

The main reason why Avalugg is used is because there's nothing else that walls Diggersby. Avalugg is the only thing keeping the meta together, as various physical attackers will sweep with incredible ease. With that said, maybe Avalugg is ban-worthy, but I find banning Chansey absolutely ridiculous, as it is barely any different to its OU counterpart.
 
#67
All right, this has gone on for far too long. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-188094092
This is the replay from the Inverse daily of jeran v. Kl4ng (aka Stockfish). Both teams are running Chanlugg, Mew, and Tangrowth. This battle could have gone on much longer but Kl4ng forfeits at turn 30.

Anyway, I'm tired of that core on every single team. I'm suspecting Chansey and Avalugg. Mew if we need to also.

Inverse doesn't get a lot of plays. I have a feeling the redundancy of the battles is a big reason why. There just isn't a ton of diversity because that core is so damn effective.

I'll make a decision after a few days or a week, depending on the feedback I get.
I'll start off by saying that since jeran had outplayed me and killed off My Volc counters that the battle in question would have kept going on around 10 turns if I put on maximum resistance.


As for the Avalugg suspect, just...no. Your intentions are in the right place, but banning it would incur horrible consequences. Like a every team would need to run Mega Slowbro level of disastrous (even then it's still going to have huge problems compared to Avalugg). I mean, Mega Slowbro is the only other significant physically defensive thing in the tier that isn't weak to Normal. To reinforce my point, please read through the link below and count how many of the Pokemon in the top 30 for highest defense stat are weak to normal:

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/stat/defense.shtml

I'm a nice guy so I'll save you the trouble. 23 out of 30 are them are weak to normal, 3 of them are Ubers, and one of them is Avalugg. That leaves 3 remaining, and the trend of rock/steel types dominating the list continues further down.

So barring Slowbro, let's see how those other Pokemon take on, say, Diggersby:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 205-243 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Not in top 30 but it's cress)

This isn't even considering the fact that Slowbro and all of these Pokemon except Cresselia have complete shit typings.. Like, you need Slowbro despite the bad typing to have a sliver of a chance against normal types. Every other physical wall is pure garbage.

And no, Diggersby is not the broken one. Here are some calcs on Cresselia from other renowned physical Pokemon, that, while not necessarily normal type, will be able to wreck shit without Avalugg. Keep in mind apart from Slowbro this is best physical wall there is:

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 238-282 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 220-259 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 246-291 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I assumed a neutral hit to prove a point, normally cress is just OHKO'd)


TL;DR: if you want to ban Avalugg get ready to ban a ton of stuff because this Metagame will take a gigantic turn for the worse without it. It will make STABmons look like a stally tier. Seriously.


As for Chansey,
I find banning Chansey absolutely ridiculous, as it is barely any different to its OU counterpart.
 
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EV

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#68
Reasoning would be really nice ._.

The main reason why Avalugg is used is because there's nothing else that walls Diggersby. Avalugg is the only thing keeping the meta together, as various physical attackers will sweep with incredible ease. With that said, maybe Avalugg is ban-worthy, but I find banning Chansey absolutely ridiculous, as it is barely any different to its OU counterpart.
Reasoning should be obvious. Every team has the same Chanlugg core with a few mons rotated on the side. I hear your and Kl4ng 's concerns, but I've also heard a lot more complaints regarding how stale the metagame is because EVERY team has Chanlugg. I'm not trying to be a stallbuster by any means, I'm just trying to find out why this metagame sees so few plays. If removing these two Pokemon can fix that, I'm willing to move forward with it. If Normal spam overflows afterward, I'll deal with that too.

Here's another question. How many people are happy with the current metagame?
 
#69
Reasoning should be obvious. Every team has the same Chanlugg core with a few mons rotated on the side. I hear your and Kl4ng 's concerns, but I've also heard a lot more complaints regarding how stale the metagame is because EVERY team has Chanlugg. I'm not trying to be a stallbuster by any means, I'm just trying to find out why this metagame sees so few plays. If removing these two Pokemon can fix that, I'm willing to move forward with it. If Normal spam overflows afterward, I'll deal with that too.

Here's another question. How many people are happy with the current metagame?
The meta is not played much because of the community's bias towards more offensive playstyles. BURN STALL HATERS IN A STAKE FOR ALL I CARE! Almost all metagames are heavily biased towards a playstyle (almost always offense), so I don't understand what the problem with is. Anyway, overall, I'm happy with the current metagame.
 

EV

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#70
If banning is out of the question for the two or so people who currently play this, maybe we should revisit some Ubers. Kyurem-W, Deoxys, Skymin?
 
#71
The main reason that ChansLugg is on most teams is because it is so low risk/high reward. And it's really only low risk because people fail to prepare for it. There are a bunch of ways to beat (and in some cases, take advantage of) the core, which require very little effort. Off the top of my head I can think of:

1) stallbreakers with taunt (Mew, Mandibuzz, Gliscor)
2) Volt turn cores (especially if hazards are up)
3) mixed attackers (Mega Garchomp, Mega Altaria, Victini)
4) strong set up attackers (Cloyster, Breloom, Diggersby, Mega Pinsir)
5) trappers (Gothitelle mainly)
6) tricking a choice item (most players will scout for this, so requires some prediction)
7) last mon set up pokemon (Scrafty, Reuniclus, Suicune, Clefable) - this is why Mew is a staple on ChansLugg teams
8) lures (a lot of physical attackers can beat avalugg with hidden power ice, as well as things like Ice Beam Dragonite)
9) Regenerator cores
10) Calm mind + Psyshock sweepers (Mega Alakazam, Latios, Meloetta)

I don't really think allowing some Ubers will really help the situation. With their increased power, you have even more reason to run Chansey and Avalugg. Plus when they were allowed in the past, most just ended up banned again anyway
 
#72
Here is a list of Pokemon that can break or heavily dent ChansLugg by themselves using the correct moveset:

Latios, Ursaring, Mamoswine, Salamence, Garchomp-Mega, Charizard-Mega-X, Dragonite, Tangrowth, Kyurem-N, Gardevoir-Mega, Breloom, Victini, Cloyster, Alakazam, Crawdaunt, Metagross, Metagross-Mega, Gothitelle.

I won't post their exact sets and stuff since I'd like to keep this post short, but feel free to ask me about them if you have any doubts. Also keep in mind this is just off the top of my head - there are likely many more things that can break through ChansLugg. If someone gets walled by ChansLugg, it is the fault of the person building the team and not due to the fact that ChansLugg is broken.

EDIT: Got ninja'd. Though I guess while I'm editing..

If banning is out of the question for the two or so people who currently play this, maybe we should revisit some Ubers. Kyurem-W, Deoxys, Skymin?
Aegislash, Genesect, Mega Lucario, Mega Mawile, and Dialga could probably be unbanned not because they break ChansLugg, but because their previously god-like typings become raw trash. Dialga may seem extreme but it's either 2x or 4x weak to most common attacking types in the meta like grass, and I can't even see it being used that much.

I guess Deoxys-D could be a half plausible drop, but I can still imagine it centralizing the tier towards offence too much. Kyu-W and Skymin should not be dropped though - Skymin especially. If I remember correctly in the last Inverse thread people were calling for a Skymin ban before things like Groudon and Lugia since it became so centralizing. Grass is an awesome offensive type, and air slash still flinches everything to death. Kyu-W on the other hand is just Kyurem-W - it doesn't change that much but the only thing that walls it is Chansey.
 
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#73
Greetings. I am a new member, but not new to Inverse Battle (have peaked at #1 on both PO and Showdown Inverse Battle ladder). I wanna post some of my ideas here.
Looking for Snorlax repacement? I've tested this and IMO it works fine.

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Return/Body Slam

Weak to Knock Off and has lower Attack than Snorlax, but it works exactly the same. With 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD spread, it can take almost any unboosted hits, unless vs Banded/Specs. Just beware of Tricks and Knock Offs.

For banning/unbanning things, this is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
As for suspecting Chanslugg, I'd say no. Normal is already unresisted and if Chanslugg gone, Stall teams are becoming less viable to play, as someone has to be able to take those unresisted hits. Mega Slowbro has problems with Water/Psychic/Fighting/Ice/Fire/Steel weakness. As for others issues, already posted by Kl4ng. As for Uber Steels, I think Aegislash, Mega Lucario, Genesect, Mega Mawile should be unbanned because Steel is a real bad typing while Normal and Dragon types are everywhere.
As for Dialga, I don't know about this. Maybe a little too extreme? But note that we have Kyurem-N with much better typing and not really different in terms of BST (680 vs 660).

Again, this is just my thoughts
 
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Likes: EV
#74
I wholeheartedly agree with word and kl4ng on chanseylugg. I personally run mega alakazam to ruin their lives, but whatever. I actually have a lot more trouble with mons such as mew and porygon 2. I honestly believe that porygon-2 is better in inverse than chansey because it is a mixed wall, so it can tank any kind of hit, as well as hit fairly hard back if megazam doesn't have calm minds up, in which case, it can get toxic up and stall you out after sacking itself.
Spec. Defensive:
+2 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 261-307 (69.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 201-237 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Phys. Defensive:
+2 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 280-331 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 186-219 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

And you can't ever guarantee what set it is going to run. I once saw a physical tank with iron tail as first slot and conversion. Not to mention that they can copy your abilities, so it can trace stuff like protean, fur coat, adaptability, poison heal, etc.
This unpredictability leads to it being able to wall/tank a lot of the meta, while Chansey can only wall special attackers, and Avalugg can only wall physical attackers.
Not to mention that most mons can survive about three seismic tosses, letting them set up or hit hard multiple times.

Anyways, I don't think they should be banned. As much as I hate them, and as much as they seem to be over-centralizing, they are easy to counter and overrated. I'd rather ban Porygon2, but that doesn't deserve to be banned either.
As for the steel types, I didn't believe many of them should've been banned in ou anyways, and now they are immeasurably worse. Dialga might be a stretch, but I've never used him in competitive battling, so I don't know how strong he is in practice.
These are just my opinions, but...
Keep Chanslugg unbanned
Unban Genesect, Mawilite, Lucarionite,and Aegislash

I honestly don't know what to think about dialga. It is an amazing stallbreaker, 2hkoing every prominent stall mon that I tested with a mixed set, but it dies to hyper offense. Maybe unban and suspect test?
 
#75
Also call me crazy if you want, but if we really revisit some Ubers (not limited to Steel types I mean), I'd say Giratina. Yes, it has 150/120/120 bulk, but is it really "broken" when, as a wall, it has 8 weaknesses in Fire/Water/Grass/Electric/Normal/Fighting/Bug/Poison?
 

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