Ladder Inverse Battle

Deoxys-S definitely needs to stay banned. The hazard laying set was ridiculous. Sure, there are unblockable Rapid Spins, but a well built Deo-S HO team isn't giving you chance to spin. I peaked #1 a bunch of times (at 1650 pts at one point) by just spamming that style of offense. If you read the old thread, there's a couple of complaints about it.

Kyurem-Black definitely needs banning. Uber level stats with godly typing (both offensively and defensively). I remember it being op even when all the other ubers were allowed in the tier - with them gone there's very little that can stop it. The Sub-Ice Beam-Outrage-Fusion Bolt set destroys both Stall and Offense.

Curselax is not banworthy. It's a great pokemon, but not really that hard to stop. If you apply enough offensive pressure, it isn't getting chance to start Cursing up or you can just Trick it a choice item to cripple it.

Diggersby is a top tier threat - and one of the few physical attackers that can beat Avalugg - but not banworthy imo. Anything faster (not that hard), that can tank a +2 Quick Attack can easily revenge it.
 
Deoxys-S definitely needs to stay banned. The hazard laying set was ridiculous. Sure, there are unblockable Rapid Spins, but a well built Deo-S HO team isn't giving you chance to spin. I peaked #1 a bunch of times (at 1650 pts at one point) by just spamming that style of offense. If you read the old thread, there's a couple of complaints about it.

Kyurem-Black definitely needs banning. Uber level stats with godly typing (both offensively and defensively). I remember it being op even when all the other ubers were allowed in the tier - with them gone there's very little that can stop it. The Sub-Ice Beam-Outrage-Fusion Bolt set destroys both Stall and Offense.

Curselax is not banworthy. It's a great pokemon, but not really that hard to stop. If you apply enough offensive pressure, it isn't getting chance to start Cursing up or you can just Trick it a choice item to cripple it.

Diggersby is a top tier threat - and one of the few physical attackers that can beat Avalugg - but not banworthy imo. Anything faster (not that hard), that can tank a +2 Quick Attack can easily revenge it.
Very well said :D We should discuss on the top tier threats and how they affect the metagame. I'm on phone now, but later on Ill post a set for Greninja, who is even better here then in OU
 

Epikhairz

Anything goes
Diggersby is easy to revenge, but that's the only reliable way to deal with it. So, that means Diggersby basically has no counters and is capable of taking out multiple mons in a game with good play

And what sort of offensive pressure are you talking about with snorlax? Lax sets up on any wall or special attacker that isn't insanely powerful, and with an optimal spread can even get past an incoming switch to band Diggersby. At +1 lax itself will be placing a ridiculous amount of offensive pressure into the opponent and no trick user will want to switch to a potential bslam. If trick is obviously coming, switch out. And what trick users would do good vs lax?
 
"No counters" isn't really true though. If you let it get up a Swords Dance, then yes you most likely have to let something die and revenge it, but otherwise there are switch-ins such as Landorus-Therian, Arcanine, Avalugg, Zapdos, Mew, Bulky Garchomp, etc.

Any strong physical attacker (especially if Choice Banded or if they have Swords Dance) is going to make setting up difficult for Snorlax - even if it's at +1 when they come in - at best it has to rely on Sleep Talk rolls to beat them and avoid being 3HKOed.
If you want to go down the Trick route, Latios is pretty good. It can easily smack something with a Specs Draco or Psyshock if you try and switch out anticipating the Trick.

Snorlax is very good and should be prepared for, but any decent player shouldn't have trouble beating it.
 
Yep. CB Diggersby loses against +1 Curselax 1 on 1 about 75% of the time.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. +1 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 238-282 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Factor in Body Slam's paralysis chance and the probability of Diggesby winning is ~24,8%

Any non-CB Diggersby? CB Staraptor? Mega Medicham? Kyurem-B with anything less than LO max Attack? Lose 100% of the time 1 on 1. And these are some of the most offensive threats in the meta.
Strong CB/SD physical attackers are just going to force Snorlax getting revenge killed instead of cursing up all the way to +6 and destroy your whole team. They aren't a reliable answer.
 
After doing some calculations, I'm starting to think that Snorlax is probably ban worthy. A Psyshock from Latios fails to 2HKO it, and Foul Play doesn't come close to 3KHO it at +1/+1. I'd say ban, but we don't have a council (wink wink) and a big player base T.T
 
Btw, I completely agree with Epikhairz's post about bans. Except for unbanning Deoxys.
I like the fact that all the Ubers have been banned (finally!), but wasn't Kyurem-B already banned before this change? Why bring it back?
 
Btw, I completely agree with Epikhairz's post about bans. Except for unbanning Deoxys.
I like the fact that all the Ubers have been banned (finally!), but wasn't Kyurem-B already banned before this change? Why bring it back?
Because we're starting anew with the current OU Ban list. The Eevee General how are you going to handle stuff we feel are broken?
 
Malamar + Cloyster core can shred teams. Malamar may still be 4x weak, but it's still happy with Superpower threatening those Psychics.
and Cloyster... is a monster, hitting everything neutrally with Spike Cannon.
 
Malamar trades a x4 weakness to Bug with a x4 weakness to Psychic, which isn't a good trade IMHO. Malamar can survive a U-turn, but it won't survive a Psychic. Besides, Malamar fails to 3HKO Avalugg even at +6.

STABless attacks don't become good just because they hit everything neutrally. Unless you absolutely need 3 non-attacking moveslots, you're better off using your STABs + moves that are SE against the Pokémon that resist your STABs, just like in standard.
 
Kyurem-Black : Ban
Snorlax : Do Not Ban
Diggersby : Do Not Ban

Based on the hundreds of Inverse Battles that I have played, I find the idea of banning Snorlax or Diggersby absurd lol. Kyurem-Black is horribly broken though and needs to go asap
 
Kyurem-Black : Ban
Snorlax : Do Not Ban
Diggersby : Do Not Ban

I haven't played inverse in a bit but when gen 6 came out I played it almost religiously peaking the ladder a ton of times, and have had a ton of experience with all of these Pokemon (well except cube since it was only around for a bit, though I have used it enough to come to an easy conclusion). Snorlax is just a lot better in theory than in practice, while Diggersby has a hard time pulling its weight versus more offensive teams because of its low speed. Cube on the other hand is broken as hell.
 
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Kyurem-Black : Ban
Snorlax : Do Not Ban
Diggersby : Do Not Ban

I've gotten close to peaking the ladder a lot of times: Kyu-B is crazy broken, but both Snorlax and Diggersby are manageable as long as you team-build well (though they kinda annoy stall).

Also, Gothitelle is great. Just saying.
 
Sorry if I sound cocky, but could we have some actual arguments together with these votes?
It's good that you have played a lot of battles, but frankly there are no good players in Inverse right now. Having played and won a lot is no proof of good understanding of how the tier works.

For actual argument I mean something like this, which I will now address:
"No counters" isn't really true though. If you let it get up a Swords Dance, then yes you most likely have to let something die and revenge it, but otherwise there are switch-ins such as Landorus-Therian, Arcanine, Avalugg, Zapdos, Mew, Bulky Garchomp, etc.
Landorus-T: Weak to Earthquake, pretty much all it can do is drop Diggersby's Attack and die.
Arcanine: This one works.
Zapdos: Loses if it can't outspeed. Which means it loses to CS variants.
Mew: Physical defensive Mew with enough Speed investment to outspeed is actually decent. But it's still sort of in trouble against the Lum Berry SD variant.
Bulky Garchomp: 2HKOed by CB or SD variants.

Now, of course Avalugg is a safe switch against Diggersby... But if something can only be countered by Avalugg, that's already a pretty strong indication that it's too powerful, so I never like when someone brings up Avalugg or Chansey against "brokenness".
(Besides, SD Diggersby can actually 2HKO Avalugg, meaning all Avalugg can do in this situation is Roar... so nothing really gained here.)


As for my votes:
Kyurem-B: Ban.
Snorlax: Ban.
Diggersby: Abstain.

I'm not 100% sure Diggersby should be banned, so I'm fine with letting it around for the moment.
Snorlax should be banned. I still need to be convinced that Snorlax can't KO at least one Pokémon in most circumstances. Right now, the only way to deal with Curselax without relying on luck or misplays by the opponent I can think of is... Curse Avalugg?
And it's not like Curselax is Snorlax's only viable set. Self-Destruct is pretty viable, for example.
 
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Sorry if I sound cocky, but could we have some actual arguments together with these votes?
It's good that you have played a lot of battles, but frankly there are no good players in Inverse right now. Having played and won a lot is no proof of good understanding of how the tier works.
e.
How does playing and winning a lot not demonstrate an understanding of the tier? Sure, there are no good inverse players at the moment but that was not always the case. I have played since the very beginning when it was OMOTM and played actively and maintained a high win rate (with various playstyles) until recently where it has been difficult to consistenly find battles.

Calcs and theorymonnning are all well and good, but if a pokemon is broken, it is not because of how powerful it is on paper. Snorlax is nowhere near as dangerous in actual battles than isolated damage calcs suggest.
 
Because beating bad players isn't a sign of being a good player? Most of the time I see Curselax lose in Inverse is because the player insists on cursing up against the wrong Pokémon.
I mean, if you do have a good understanding of the tier, you should be able to formulate a clear strategy to beat Snorlax. Making vague statements like "For a good player Snorlax isn't that hard to handle" or "Snorlax is better on paper" isn't very useful or convincing.

For example, I had a clear way to deal with Curselax back when I used to play Inverse. But it was more like "turning the probabilities in my favor" than straight "beating it". And it involved Tangrowth and a Curselax of my own.
Another example, I remember Adrian used Mandibuzz to check Curselax. But even then, it relied on Knocking Off Snorlax's Leftovers, because with Leftovers and Body Slam's paralysis chance, the odds are in Snorlax's favor (Foul Play isn't even an assured 4HKOed if Snorlax has Leftovers). If Mandibuzz gets paralyzed by Body Slam, it can no longer counter Snorlax because it can't Taunt before it Rests.
 
Stall breaker Mew (Taunt/Wisp/Softboiled/Knock Off) basically counters Curselax. Even when paralyzed it outspeeds after a single Curse, prevents Rest and boosting stats.

Trick shuts down Snorlax (if you're desperate, use Gothitelle). Phazers, Clear Smog and Haze allow to manage it at your own pace. Also it kinda hates Leech Seed.

Sub-Disable (w/Taunt if you really want it) Gengar can match it as long as you switch in (or Focus Sash + Disable if you're desperate). Bulk Up and Shed Skin Scrafty (which catches a lot of people off guard) can even use Chip Away if you really want. CM-Unaware Clef can also beat it. A lot of physical attackers (and Porygon-Z) can break through it, and it's really easy to predict when Snorlax is going to be switched in.

Scarf Diggersby is a lot weaker and doesn't really want to spam Quick Attack. Band (and to a lesser extent LO) hits hard but is easily revenged. It's weak to SR and its water resistance doesn't really matter since it doesn't like Burns. It doesn't have an immunity to paralysis anymore and it's bulk is iffy enough that it isn't hard to wear it down. Different pokemon are better answers to different sets (Avalugg for Scarf, Thundurus for others).

Both of them are good pokemon, but not bannable in my opinion.
 
Your strategy for beating Snorlax (or any mon for that matter) really depends on your team.

A stall team could trap it with Gothitelle for example, and Trick it a Choice Scarf. Making it it trivial to wall and wear down with Avalugg.
Perish Song Celebi beats it in a last mon situation.

A balanced team could wear it down with stallbreaker Mew (or a similar taunt + status user). Mew probably won't defeat it single-handedly thanks to Body Slam's paralysis chance, but it'll be easy enough to predict the turn that it'll rest and send in your Swords Dance Diggersby or Garchomp or whatever.

Assuming Sleep Talk selects Curse on the turn you Swords Dance:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 243-286 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Assuming Sleep Talk selects Body Slam on the turn you Swords Dance:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 363-427 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 103-123 (28.8 - 34.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO

either way, rip Snorlax.


You could even use a surprise Destiny Bond user if really desperate (I've had success with Gardevoir).

An offensive team can just spam strong attacks (perhaps Porygon-Z's Tri-Attack/Uproar - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-167271818, or Exploud's Boomburst or Mega-Heracross' Pin Missile).

One of my teams had a core of Choice Band Landorus-Therian + Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow and there's no way Snorlax is setting up on that.
Rotom volt switches as Snorlax curses:
252 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 72-85 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Landorus Earthquakes:
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Earthquake vs. +1 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 216-255 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Snorlax has no choice but to rest.
If Sleep Talk selects Curse, it's taking 43.4-51.3% that turn followed by 32.5-38.6% the next turn. (75.9% min meaning it gets KOed the next turn)
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Earthquake vs. +2 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 162-192 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 3.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Sleep Talk selects Body Slam
0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 109-129 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


EDIT: looks like a__man beat me to typing up most of these :)
 
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Epikhairz

Anything goes
Snorlax is broken, I dont know how many times I need to keep saying this.

Most of the arguments from yesterday were incredibly vague, like "any average player can deal with it" or "its not as good as u say", and I dont think I need to explain why those arguments arent worth shit.

As for the actual arguments...when you're saying that calcs dont prove anything and that in practice its not as good, thats not true. its just as good in practice in the hands of an average player. these arent just calcs dug up randomly and spit out for the sake of arguments. this calc shows that snorlax can win against the most powerful physical attacker with good odds 1v1. thats huge, and also debunks the argument that its defenses are "dismal".

As for specific checks and counters named, Snorlax is not unbeatable. No pokemon is. Hell, Kyogre is basically put to a full stop by Gastrodon, but does that make it not broken? Hell no. In fact, a lot of the "counters" listed range from average to not very good. Any well-built team should be able to get rid of PZ before sending in snorlax to sweep due to its fraility. As for Trick users, it should be really obvious when it comes from something like Latios or Rotom (why else would they be sent in against lax,,,). In that case, switch out; its not like snorlax has to stay in and take being crippled so easily. As for Gothitelle, it can trick it, but gothitelle can do this in any tier, even up to ubers, and its a very specific catch-all example. Gothitelle can trap lots of ubers mons as well, but that doesn't make them any less broken.

The way I see it, it's not that any average player can deal with snorlax (which is just flat-out not true imo), but that any average player can use snorlax and win easily with just average plays. I vote Ban

Kyurem-B: Ban
Snorlax: Ban
Diggersby: Abstain (for now - I'll come back to this later after people start changing their minds about Snorlax)
 
Why would Snorlax use Curse on Rotom-M? How would it? In your example you post a choiced Rotom-M that uses Volt Switch, which it could only do if you had switch in or a double switch had happen, in which case it would be better using Trick anyway (And any decent Snorlax player would just switch out of said situation).
 
Rotom can't otherwise touch Snorlax, so I'd assume it would Volt Switch out (it could Trick, but it might need its Scarf to outspeed something else or the Trick might be too obvious so Volt Switch is a safe play either way). Snorlax gets a free Curse assuming Rotom does anything other than Trick (it's possible Rotom has already Tricked the Scarf away...). I don't know why they're both in at the same time - most calcs are assuming ideal conditions anyway - no prior damage/the perfect set etc.
 


Arhops (Tangrowth) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off

I've been using offensive Tangrowth recently and I have to say it's insanely good. Regenerator and physical bulk that remains high, even with an offensive spread, means it can act as an excellent pivot without sacrificing offensive pressure. Leech Seed and Knock Off are great utility when going up against Snorlax, and the physical bulk in tandem with Regenerator means that it can keep coming in and doing its job effectively. Power whip pretty much destroys non-resists, while HP Ice covers one of the only non-resists that can take it well; Avalugg. Life orb makes it pack a punch with both Power Whip and Knock Off and allows HP Ice to bring Avalugg into the 2hko range, though Meadow Plate and Leftovers are other options if you're worried about durability.

As a bonus, everyone is expecting it to be either your standard wall or special attacker, so many players will find their Chansey switch-ins now without their Eviolites (though I guess everyone reading this will know now :/).

While Diggersby being able to switch in is somewhat of an issue, unless it's switching in on HP Ice, it won't be doing so for free:

252+ Atk Life Orb Tangrowth Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 144-172 (46.1 - 55.1%) -- 64.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 156-185 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tangrowth Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 144-172 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 156-185 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Diggersby switching in on leech seed means your Diggersby counter/check will have a far easier time)

Here's a replay demonstrating its effectiveness:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-167529101
 
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Back after a break guys~ Anyways, its great to finally be able to see stuff happening here :D

My decisions are:
Kyurem-B: Ban
Snorlax: Ban
Diggersby: I'm quite neutral, but leaning more to Abstain

And my reasoning follows. After running some calculations, and reading most of the arguments here, I feel that Snorlax deserves a ban. Most players are able to abuse the sheer bulk of Snorlax to set up on most special attacker (and sometimes it is able to set up on weaker Physical attackers). Once it is able to set up Curse once, it is quite impossible to take it down. Calculations are to follow:

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Explosion vs. +1 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 390-460 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you guys can see, not even an explosion (STAB included) from Diggersby can take down Snorlax, which is something to take note of Also, what w0rd is suggesting is very specific strategies to take down Snorlax, and probably shouldn't even be considered. Destiny Bond? Perish Song? Landorus-T/Rotom-Mow core? If every Inverse player runs these just for Snorlax, wouldn't that make Snorlax overcentralizing?
 

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