Jirachi (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Myzozoa

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#27
I'm hesistant about the mixed attacking set, is it not: drain punch/thunderbolt/ironhead? drain punch allows you to get heatran and heal hp to keep your health up. It has been a while since I played smash-pass but I believe drain punch is standard.
 

Pocket

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#28
drain punch may be standard on MixRachi played on Smash Pass teams, but the main set is referring to MixRachi as a stand-alone mon, not as a BP recipient.
 
#30
Why why why why is Offensive Jirachi not here? It outdages Mixed Jirachi by far. Jirachi just needs Psyshock to be "mixed."

I don't know if it is still usable, but last gen even CM / Psychic / Coverage Move / Iron Head (2HKO Tar, 3 HKO blissey w/ Flinch) was floating around (and surprisingly effective).
 
#32
Calm Mind + 3 Attacks with a Life Orb. Usually it is Psychic / Psyshock and your choice of 2 coverage combinations. Jirachi makes good use of Life Orb and the Calm Mind due to it's typing and move coverage. I don't know why it was omitted.
 

AccidentalGreed

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#33
If my intuition is correct and that mixed offensive Jirachi happens to employ a Life Orb, you can pretty much expect that set to be rejected on that spot due to the amount of eventual passive damage it can suffer.
 

dice

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#34
yah life orb on jirachi is not getting approved by me sry.

it needs its bulk to help check lati@s, hydreigon, tornadus, etc. for more offensive teams so that is not a good way to do so!!!
 
#35
Superachi being rejected? LOL. You can run Life Orb or Leftovers but what the hell Jirachi is fine as an offensive pokemon. If Celebi has an offensive set and Jirachi has BETTER typing and coverage, then why doesn't it get one?

Also, this set:

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Iron Head
move 2: Fire Punch / Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Ice Punch
move 4: Energy Ball
item: Expert Belt
nature: Naive
evs: 152 HP / 204 SpA / 152 Spe

I think you should slash those or explain why you used that combination. HP Fire does more to Forry, Skarmory, standard Scizor, and doesn't take Ferrothorn Iron Barb (and potential Rocky Helmet damage). Ice Punch does less to Gliscor but more to most Dragons - Dragonite, Lati@, etc. Plus, Freeze is more useful than burn.
 
#36
You know what, I think I have to test offensive CM Jirachi, I'll report back with my results. I haven't talked to anyone besides ginganinja who has actually tested it, and if it's going to be omitted, I think it needs a look first.

Sorry for more delay, this is not something worth screwing up.

Oh, and I think I'll add a touch more hype to SmashPass for mixed Jirachi, just gave that a whirl and it's insanely good.

On the mixed CM set you mentioned, while I'm dealing with offensive, why the hell not.

papai noel said:
You should mention on the AC of the Scarf set that Jirachi can run diferent EV spreads to outspeed different threats.
I am hesitant to drop Speed on Scarf, but could you tell me what you mean? I'm not averse to a bit of bulk, but what are the benchmarks you're speaking of?
 
#37
sorry for double posting

I tested offensive CM and it's legit; I was very surprised with the results. I just used a Timid + Leftovers build. After having a convo on IRC with jc104, Pocket, and Woodchuck, I tested a few more things and came to this proposed set:

name: Superachi! (Offensive Calm Mind)
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic / Flash Cannon
move 3: Grass Knot / Thunderbolt
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Expert Belt, Shuca Berry, and Timid in AC

Thunderbolt and HP Ground can honestly be lumped into AC but they have merit. HP Ground hits Heatran, and Thunderbolt hits bulky Water-types and has pretty good coverage with it. Psychic is better than Psyshock because it hits stuff like Gliscor (and, well, pretty much everything) way harder. Grass Knot hits bulky Water-types and Hippowdon / Tyranitar. Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn, naturally. Life Orb for more power, Leftovers to get more setup. Life Orb is preferred because Superachi doesn't really need to stick around all that long to sweep. The Speed from Timid is nice, but many of the Pokemon Jirachi can set up on / beat are slower than it, so it's not always needed. Modest makes it much easier to deal with Pokemon such as Gliscor (Modest LO +1 Psychic OHKOes) and Landorus-T. Flash Cannon just hits stuff neutrally and hits Tyranitar particularly hard. For those reasons, it's a decent alternative to Psychic.

How it works:
Well, pretty much what you do is, you get rid of Garchomp / Terrakion / other annoying powerful Pokemon that can kill Jirachi. You get rid of Heatran. Sweep! No, really, it's that easy. For hazards, all you need is Stealth Rock. The biggest advantage is that it only takes 1-2 CMs to sweep. That's so much faster than other CM Jirachi, and it has more immediate power (meaning before any CMs) as well. Furthermore, it can fit well into teams that aren't rain teams, which is good. It is especially good on sand, as it is not damaged by the weather, but weatherless and hail teams can easily find a home for it as well. Thunderbolt + HP Ground variants can fit on rain even (you would run Thunder then, naturally). The ease with which Superachi sweeps makes it well worth a set, in my opinion.

jc104 said it was probably worth a set, Pocket said the same, and Seven Deadly Sins thinks it's definitely worth a set.

Thoughts?

EDIT: heh that's a good idea RaikouLover, sorry, I didn't see your post. I'll slash them in.
 

Neliel

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#38
I would slash a shuca berry on jirachi for that set, i think its great to avoid rkill by garchomp and landorus as well as having an easy time against ground types in general
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#39
I personally don't see the point of running a positive speed nature on max speed base 100s this gen, since most premiere offensive threats are already faster than them. Things like Timid Roserade and Jolly Lucario/Haxorus are very rare, and Jirachi would appreciate some extra power for muscling through things like Gliscor with Psychic. Because of this, Modest should be the first slash on Superachi.
 
#40
I would slash a shuca berry on jirachi for that set, i think its great to avoid rkill by garchomp and landorus as well as having an easy time against ground types in general
You also can't OHKO Garchomp with even a +1 Psychic in return. It will get an AC mention, but no more.
I personally don't see the point of running a positive speed nature on max speed base 100s this gen, since most premiere offensive threats are already faster than them. Things like Timid Roserade and Jolly Lucario/Haxorus are very rare, and Jirachi would appreciate some extra power for muscling through things like Gliscor with Psychic. Because of this, Modest should be the first slash on Superachi.
That was actually a thought of mine, I'll being doing that.
 

AccidentalGreed

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#41
Just wanted to say that I completely approve of the new Superachi, and that the Life Orb + HP Ground + Flash Cannon build is pretty fucking awesome for taking out the most common OU threats on weatherless/rain teams. It'd be worthwhile to at least slash or mention the Timid nature, since I've indiscriminately tested it out with the Timid nature, and it worked out fine.
 
#43
Just wanted to say that I completely approve of the new Superachi, and that the Life Orb + HP Ground + Flash Cannon build is pretty fucking awesome for taking out the most common OU threats on weatherless/rain teams. It'd be worthwhile to at least slash or mention the Timid nature, since I've indiscriminately tested it out with the Timid nature, and it worked out fine.
Timid will be mentioned in AC.
You should mention that +1 Modest LO Psychic OHKOes Gliscor, which was a reasonably significant reason to go for Modest.
Duly noted, will mention.
 

AccidentalGreed

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#45
Yo! Here's me bothering you with the Substitute set again.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Paralysis
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Body Slam / Toxic
move 3: Iron Head
move 4: Fire Punch
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
  • cool mix of supporter and attacker
  • plays kind of weird; it has a mixture of defensive, offensive, and supportive capabilities, allowing it to function as a pivot for numerous attacks and wear down opponents with ease
  • Substitute provides a buffer against faster Pokemon and status
  • Body Slam > Thunder Wave because it can paralyze Ground-types and Volt Absorb Pokemon and deals damage
  • paralysis cripples faster Pokemon, obviously, and helps with the paraflinch strategy to effectively wear down foes
  • Toxic helps against walls such as Hippowdon and Jellicent
  • they help different kinds of offensive Pokemon - paralysis helps slower ones and Toxic helps faster and slightly less powerful ones
  • Fire Punch hits Ferrothorn / Forretress where it hurts
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • EVs give some bulk, some power, and the ability to outspeed all Mamoswine, Dragonite, Breloom, and Adamant Lucario
  • Zen Headbutt is viable for a STAB option and the flinch chance (hits Fighting-types harder)
  • weather: weatherless and sand are your best options because rain and sun are annoying in different ways
  • slow sweepers if you have paralysis, weaker stuff like Weavile if you have Toxic
  • if you don't have Toxic kill Jellicent Hippowdon etc. thanks Thundurus-T
  • if you don't have paralysis well you don't have it, Jirachi isn't AS much of a supporter then
  • js Kyurem-B is an amazing partner for this
Okay, so, if we're going with the Body Slam / Toxic route, then it might be best to rename the set to "Substitute + Status" since the set is no longer dedicated towards paralysis. Also, it might be worth mentioning that with Toxic, it might be good to go with Zen Headbutt rather than Iron Head, since Jirachi can stay strong against Tentacruel and still have a decent STAB attack to work with. Jirachi should also not be too overconfident in staying against foes so as long as the substitute isn't up.

Also mention that the Speed can be increased with toxic as well, since ideally Jirachi wants to try hitting Ninetales and Kyurem-B before going down.
 

jc104

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#46
Nah, you can't go with ZHB. A 36% flinch chance is absolutely nothing like a 60% flinch chance, and you really need those flinches to rack up toxic damage. You just have to accept that you're going to lose to tentacruel, really. Perhaps you could consider gothitelle or something to kill it?
 

alexwolf

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#47
Zen Headbutt goes to AC on the Sub set. Hitting Tentacruel is nice and all, but then what happens against Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Magnezone, and even opposing Jirachi? Fire Punch should be alone in the last slot. Iron Head should be alone in the first slot as it has almost double the chance to immobilize the opponent every turn. Zen Headbutt can be mentioned in the AC though, and that it can go over Iron Head or Fire Punch. And yeah the set should be named Sub + Status.
 
#48
For the Sub set, I forgot to change the name (I was going to use Annoyer but Sub + Status works too), so I fixed that. Zen Headbutt can stay in AC, imo; I agree with alexwolf and jc104.

Anyway, I'm including Superachi now, right? If there's nothing else to say, I'll put it in the skelly in a bit.

The skelly itself is almost done too (just OO and C&C left) so once I get those done this will be legitimately ready for QC critique / approvals.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#49
The sets that are currently running 152 speed EVs should be running 156 EVs for Modest Landorus...those have actually been showing up on the ladder, from what I've seen.

Also, I think the main EV spread of the Wish CM set should be 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe Timid. That spread isn't getting 2HKO'd by 0 Atk Gliscor's Earthquake anyway, and outruns some major targets that the current Bold spread cannot, like Mamoswine, Toxicroak, and non-Scarf Rotom-W.
 
#50
I bumped SubCM to 156 EVs and moved the 100 EVs to Defense because they allow Jirachi to take physical hits better. I'm going to leave the Wish CM EVs for now, as I find the bulk really helps keep Jirachi from being worn down.

In other news, the skeleton is done! C&C is in no particular order.
 

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