NOC JOAT 10 Game Thread [Completed, GG Mafia]

Celever said:
And yeah LS I have hosted a few Rands Slam Circuit tournaments. Bossaru went far in my first one this year but refused to schedule publicly and also went activity fishing so hard I had to scold him like I was his teacher :row:

Fun Fact: When Bossaru posts "Contacted" in the thread, it doesn't mean he's contacted his opponent.
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wtf
 
Celever said:
Yes
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Alright, well honestly I kind of agree but I think we have to remember that Emchee was legitimately trying to move the game forward on Day 1 of last game. I think his main tells are
1. tone
2. refusal to engage with difficult things

So far I think his tone is basically the same so I can't read it. But he's basically been refusing to engage with any of the game, not just difficult things (people scumreading him). So based on his drop in activity and what I feel as desire to win, I am feeling more null on him than anything. Not town-reading because he hasn't actually done any pro-town moves, but the stuff he has presented I don't feel matches his play as maf last game in key ways.
 
ZippyDoo200 said:
Alright, well honestly I kind of agree but I think we have to remember that Emchee was legitimately trying to move the game forward on Day 1 of last game. I think his main tells are
1. tone
2. refusal to engage with difficult things

So far I think his tone is basically the same so I can't read it. But he's basically been refusing to engage with any of the game, not just difficult things (people scumreading him). So based on his drop in activity and what I feel as desire to win, I am feeling more null on him than anything. Not town-reading because he hasn't actually done any pro-town moves, but the stuff he has presented I don't feel matches his play as maf last game in key ways.
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On phone so I’m not gonna give a full detailed response but I think the analysis and POV here is accurate. I just differ with you wrt some of the conclusions.

I think Ehmcee has been trying to progress the game about as much as last time. He’s doing so even more masked and jokingly perhaps, he has a less ultra-stern tone… but as noted in my post, his jokes are mainly from before the D1 sleep and since then he has both posted less and much more seriously and progressiony. It’s why I noted the time skip in the case, as this was something I also noticed on the read. Even soon after game start things like the “that’s not how probability works” point was probably the first game-focused point of the game.

One of the more ideal ways to play as mafia is to look good on an ISO and not even come up in memory. Ehmcee kind of populates this playstyle as both factions, but he looks to be trying to do so intentionally this game.

I’d also like to highlight the factor here which is that Assist Trophy was Ehmcee’s game as mafia, and he definitely learned from that experience (but we can only guess his full takeaways). When you look at Assist Trophy on a macro scale the conclusion is low effort town = deep run. I’d argue seeming this way is something Haruno and Laurel did more than Ehmcee did last game, and Ehmcee caught heat earlier than either of the other two. You also obviously have your Whydons, Fames and TBZs cruising through as considered town while minimising content. My opinion is this factor explains the transition from refusal to engage with hard stuff -> refusal to engage with much stuff at all. But this explanation is only valid if Ehmcee is mafia; as town your win condition is not dependent on survival, and so modifying playstyle to match established deep running methods is not your win condition either. Again, I think Ehmcee is actually engaging with the game a deceptive amount, but he’s certainly trying to seem like he isnt.

And even then the IMO hardest thing for him to engage with (which I highlighted in the case) he flat out ignored instead of volleying with, so I think it stacks up.

WRT tone as I didn’t answer it explicitly, what’s different in his tone is between this game and Assist Trophy (where they are similar), and his previous town games (which are different). I agree his tone is a tell and that’s part of the case.
 
Celever said:
One of the more ideal ways to play as mafia is to look good on an ISO and not even come up in memory.
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That is the exact opposite of my playstyle thus far. Granted, I have only rolled town so far, but still.

Celever said:
as town your win condition is not dependent on survival,
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I still focus primarily on survival lol.
I just kinda view dying as losing because:
A, I mainly play in ORGs and EiPP and shit, what did you expect?
and B, I mainly join to give myself something to do, which kinda gets fucked if I die.
 
Celever said:
My Case Whooo
(LHF, more so than Ehmcee has gone for before I think)







------------------------D2
None, this is noteworthy. The fact that the banter & humour pretty much stopped after one sleep is interesting. As town he continues the banter longer, but as scum he dropped it in Assist Trophy quickly.

Dumbtells
These are consecutive and close together posts. That Ehmcee did the same thing last game (see below quote), but then didn't pick up the volley about the fact that he did the same thing last game stands out to me. He just did another dumbtell right after instead, ignoring that this is repeat behaviour from his scumgame in a way that is not also repeated in the town game really.



The hypo asking is fine IMO. This last came up in eli loves matrices but Ehmcee died N3 and this discourse happened D3, so I think it's NAI.

But I don't understand why Ehmcee asks whether people flip again. He did the same thing in Assist Trophy:

but hasn't done this in any game where he's town (I looked and am p sure I didn't miss it through the power of ctrl+F). It really seems like a clutching at straws to look lost and confused tactic. Like a "well if I were mafia I would ask this in scumchat instead, so asking in-thread is town points!" situation. That train of thought only actually comes to scum.
----------------------D2


I don't think this happens naturally. You get an alert when a tag happens. Either Ehmcee is sat there refreshing the game thread and not posting / contributing, or he saw the alert, ignored it, and went with the dumbtell. Once again this happened more in Assist Trophy than prior games (e.g. Werewolf his last townflipped game on here).

Full Content / Jokes I have Commentary On
Honestly I think this joke stands out. Primarily because of the experiences of last game, wherein Neon was basically considered clear in the later stages of the game (as town) which made it harder for Ehmcee to win. I don't think this really comes to mind from a town!Ehmcee POV; Neon's spreadsheet was not considered AI in the later stages of the game and he was considered town for a number of other reasons at that point. My feeling is that the more likely reason for this thought to come to mind is that Ehmcee is mafia again and doesn't want a rerun of Neon being immune to proper wagon momentum, so he's trying to nip that possibility in the bud.


I find this notable because at approx the same time and postcount in Werewolf Mafia, Ehmcee threw this together:


Now, my view is that there are more reads that could comprise a satisfactory reads list than there were at this point in Werewolf. And while the reads list came after more posts in the Smalltown thread as a whole, it came after fewer posts by Ehmcee:

Ehmcee's actual playstyle as town is making a reads list to collate their thoughts and communicate reads, especially reads they haven't really communicated yet in the thread. I find the lack of doing this this game notable. The game is over 24 hours old and 20 pages long, which is when Ehmcee has historically done this before. To instead say "oh I'm vibing reading is hard" is his mafia playstyle, by contrast.

However.... Ehmcee has posted "this is already turning out to be x" or "a y one" in 2/3 checked town games and 0/1 checked mafia games. Perhaps this is the only real meta tell he has LOL

Specific Mafia Strategy I Saw Ehmcee Do in Assist Trophy: Sucking Up To The Most Influential Players
Sucking up to AG (but this is sort of a BoD sitch because in-context it is jokey enough)




In particular, the reason I asked that question is because Celever/LS is the really easy answer to the question. It's the Level-1 deduction. And Ehmcee is not a player who is traditionally shy from a counter-hegemonic read as town, but as mafia last game he heavily went with the flow (except insofar as his buddies were concerned). In Assist Trophy Ehmcee on D1 made a very active effort to get townread by Fame, because he (quite correctly) identified that Fame was a player who was likely to live for a long time and potentially be quite influential. I think Ehmcee is likely attempting to do this with me and/or LS this game. Especially because no real reasoning was provided.

Either way it's a cop out answer because that's just volume telling lol. P sure Ehmcee has been advised against that before as town and I think those memories would kick in if he were town here too.


And I think it might also be the case here but less so. This is just trying to fit in gaming, ultimately.

Vote Ehmcee
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I want another vote count before I hop on the wagon, but I can't find any fault with the reasoning. The evidence, that will wait until I can verify it soonish. And is another reason why I'm not hopping on the wagon yet.
 
Celever said:
On phone so I’m not gonna give a full detailed response but I think the analysis and POV here is accurate. I just differ with you wrt some of the conclusions.

I think Ehmcee has been trying to progress the game about as much as last time. He’s doing so even more masked and jokingly perhaps, he has a less ultra-stern tone… but as noted in my post, his jokes are mainly from before the D1 sleep and since then he has both posted less and much more seriously and progressiony. It’s why I noted the time skip in the case, as this was something I also noticed on the read. Even soon after game start things like the “that’s not how probability works” point was probably the first game-focused point of the game.

One of the more ideal ways to play as mafia is to look good on an ISO and not even come up in memory. Ehmcee kind of populates this playstyle as both factions, but he looks to be trying to do so intentionally this game.

I’d also like to highlight the factor here which is that Assist Trophy was Ehmcee’s game as mafia, and he definitely learned from that experience (but we can only guess his full takeaways). When you look at Assist Trophy on a macro scale the conclusion is low effort town = deep run. I’d argue seeming this way is something Haruno and Laurel did more than Ehmcee did last game, and Ehmcee caught heat earlier than either of the other two. You also obviously have your Whydons, Fames and TBZs cruising through as considered town while minimising content. My opinion is this factor explains the transition from refusal to engage with hard stuff -> refusal to engage with much stuff at all. But this explanation is only valid if Ehmcee is mafia; as town your win condition is not dependent on survival, and so modifying playstyle to match established deep running methods is not your win condition either. Again, I think Ehmcee is actually engaging with the game a deceptive amount, but he’s certainly trying to seem like he isnt.

And even then the IMO hardest thing for him to engage with (which I highlighted in the case) he flat out ignored instead of volleying with, so I think it stacks up.

WRT tone as I didn’t answer it explicitly, what’s different in his tone is between this game and Assist Trophy (where they are similar), and his previous town games (which are different). I agree his tone is a tell and that’s part of the case.
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"as town your win condition is not dependent on survival, and so modifying playstyle to match established deep running methods is not your win condition either. "

I disagree with this perspective. It's also a legit reason to want to stay alive and deep run every game so you get the most experience possible. Also, as a town your win is sort of dependent on your survival.

apart from that, I am willing to hear out what you say here but I have 1 question left.

Who has Emchee been interacting with in terms of progressing the game so far? Like which people.
 
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