Pokémon Kangaskhan

[DaiGuren]

Lol Jellicent, Gliscor and other physical walls that carry statuses wall megakhan hard, Skarmory laughs at you trying to PuP when it can phaze you away. Heck, even on the offensive side, scarfed Kyurem-B can take a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO back with Outrage. Scarfed Terrakion will eat a Sucker Punch or Return and OHKO you with Close Combat. Not to mention that MegaKhan can end up as set-up fodder(especially Bulk-Up variants) if he loses the guessing game with Sucker Punch. Or worse, you'll have MegaGar setting up a Substitute in front of you, and OHKO later with Focus Blast.

He's not as almighty as you claim him to be. If MegaKhan gets burned and you don't have a cleric, he's done. Now I'm not saying that MegaKhan outright sucks, he's very strong, that's for sure, but worthy of a quick ban? Far from it.

Some of you guys are worshipping MegaKhan too much.

 

[Stallion]

Lol Jellicent, Gliscor and other physical walls that carry statuses wall megakhan hard, Skarmory laughs at you trying to PuP when it can phaze you away. Heck, even on the offensive side, scarfed Kyurem-B can take a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO back with Outrage. Scarfed Terrakion will eat a Sucker Punch or Return and OHKO you with Close Combat. Not to mention that MegaKhan can end up as set-up fodder(especially Bulk-Up variants) if he loses the guessing game with Sucker Punch. Or worse, you'll have MegaGar setting up a Substitute in front of you, and OHKO later with Focus Blast.

He's not as almighty as you claim him to be. If MegaKhan gets burned and you don't have a cleric, he's done. Now I'm not saying that MegaKhan outright sucks, he's very strong, that's for sure, but worthy of a quick ban? Far from it.

Some of you guys are worshipping MegaKhan too much.

If Gliscor switches into an Adamant Khan PuP, it's almost 100% koed by return. Skarm is 100% koed if it switches into a PuP by Fire Punch. Both of these are very feasible scenarios seeing as they are meant to be "counters" who switch in. And you wouldn't sucker punch Kyurem-B when you outspeed it...

Mega-Gar is a 50/50 proposition. Attack and you risk getting Sucker Punched, Sub and you risk getting Fire Punched. Not to mention gar probably doesn't like eating the second part of a Sucker Punch even if it guesses correctly to begin with.

 

[Vashimus]

That's why he said Scarfed Kyurem-B.

 

[Stallion]

That's why he said Scarfed Kyurem-B.

Missed that. Still though, Kanga has a very limited list of stops. Stall in particular has to be creative in handling it

 

[Pidgey Airlines]

Maybe it's only me but I feel like people tend to forget that Kanga only has 4 skill slots.

Some people here seem to assume that Kanga has PuP, Earthquake, Return, Sucker, Fire Punch and Bite as well...
Not to mention some assume that he has Fake Out additionally to those mentioned above..


I'ld say we can come to the conclusion that the main issue most people have with Khan is his large pool of viable abilities.
(Sucker / PuP seem to be must haves though)
You don't know which one you face until he hits you in your face.

Khan is strong, but his powerlevel really isn't that far of as some people call it.
He simply is/can be frustrating to face since you can't really predict him.

If that makes him banworthy is another discussion.

 

[CWW]

Unless Kanga somehow has Crunch and Fire Punch, Gengar can 100% check it with Sub + Disable. Sucker Punch has less pp, so you can stall it out and fully heal in the meantime, if you're afraid of the second sucker punch OHKOing you.

 

[DaiGuren]

Stallion

All of those requires you to guess correctly. I may have overlooked Skarm and Gliscor, I admit, since I don't really use them, but no doubt Jellicent and Scarfed Kyurem-B can go toe-to-toe against MegaKhan. Also, Keldeo I think, is able to revenge kill him with ease.

This is my last piece here, since I haven't really used MegaKhan that much. However, what I would want to say is that MegaKhan is indeed a very large threat in OU, to the point that I had to put him in my list of "be wary of" pokemons along with CB Scizor, Talonflame, MegaGar, etc. However, in my opinion, his strength is not so mcuh as to make him worth of quick banning to ubers or even compared to the likes of Blaziken, due to MegaKhan being walled, outsped or tanked by a lot of pokemon residing in Ubers, not to mention he can't hold any item.

 

[kleine]

This is flat out wrong. M-Kanga loses to anything, and I mean anything reasonably bulky with Counter, for starters.

Come on, dude. Using Counter in this gen has a huge opportunity cost when there are so many other moves to choose from. Furthermore, a Kanga with Return / Sub / Sucker Punch / Power-Up Punch completely ruins Counter.

It can't do a damn thing against Unaware Quagsire, who easily beats it with Toxic/Scald and spams recover in its face.

Of course, but Blaziken getting walled by Chandelure doesn't make it fair game for OU.

Conkeldurr is reasonably bulky to count as a defensive answer and can spam Drain Punch to beat M-Kanga one-on-one.

No. +2 Mega Kanga deals a minimum of 97.63% to 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr.

EDIT: Wait, I forgot the baby hit. It's a guaranteed kill after that. 252+ LO Mach Punch only deals 56.25 - 67.32% to Mega Kanga.

Ghost types with WoW such as Sableye completely shut it down. Hell, almost any defensive pokemon with either Toxic or WoW can just cripple it and proceed to stall until it either bites the dust or it's forced out.

M-Kanga has plenty of defensive checks so think outside the box before making such bold statements.

Any halfway-decent Kangaskhan player will take full advantage of Scrafty to nail Ghosts on the switch with Return (or PUP for Aegislash). Ghosts aren't counters; at best they're checks that simply force the Kanga to switch out to something that handles the Ghost. The only bulletproof counter to Kangaskhan is Quagsire (EDIT: except not really because I forgot the baby hit again); any team lacking it will get a sizable hole torn in its defense.

 

[Thorhammer]

I'm wondering why we're not talking about (mega) Lucario as a Kanga counter.
He resists SP and can 1hit K.O Khan (and he's faster).

Mega Lucario is faster, but Lucario is slower, so you have to find a time to transform it before Kangaskhan hits the field. If Kangaskhan is already rampaging through your team, an untransformed Lucario will just get OHKOed with EQ before it can do anything except poke Kangaskhan with priority. I guess a specially based Mega Lucario could hit decently hard with Vacuum Wave...

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 190 - 223 (54.1 - 63.6%)

If you've managed to weaken it with a solid hit already, it'll do, but not otherwise.

 

[alexwolf]

Just realized that Rocky Helmet Garchomp murders this thing. Mega Kangaskhan loses 58% of its life for every attack he makes on Garchomp, which means that he get KOed if he lands two attacks.

 

[Shurtugal]

Quagsire is 2HKOd by Return (iirc), so it can't switch in, and it's easy to stall out Recover just saying.

Rocky Helm DeoD is a good deterent too, alex.

 

[Dragontamer]

Mega-Gar is a 50/50 proposition. Attack and you risk getting Sucker Punched, Sub and you risk getting Fire Punched. Not to mention gar probably doesn't like eating the second part of a Sucker Punch even if it guesses correctly to begin with.

People forget that Mega-Khan can always run Crunch and straight-up own all Ghosts bar Evolite Duskclops. A lot of criticism towards Mega-Khan is not towards Khan itself... but is really criticism towards the guessing games that Sucker Punch entails. Running Crunch removes the "guessing game" aspect and hits Ghosts just as hard.

Khan can usually get +1 easily, although the +2 is difficult because most people switch into ghosts when dealing with Khan. So I'm only going to do dmg calculations assuming a Scrappy +1 Power-up Punch on the switch. I'm going to run Choice Band to "simulate" the double-strike effect of Parental Bond.

Don't even need +1 here:
252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 384-454 (146.56 - 173.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 348-410 (125.17 - 147.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The +1s hit the more defensive ghosts:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 344-406 (85.35 - 100.74%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (Aegislash Custom): 336-396 (103.7 - 122.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Trevenant): 328-386 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 212-250 (66.45 - 78.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 154-182 (54.22 - 64.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Gourgeist): 238-282 (63.63 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So we have our list of counters to PuP / Crunch set. Cofagrigus (I dunno how Mummy works, but I'm assuming that after PuP, Khanga looses Scrappy. THEN he mega-transforms, gains Parental Bond, strike twice, and then loses Parental Bond)
, Dusclops, and Gourgeist. The other ghosts don't actually stand a chance. The PuP strategy is a bit of a guessing game, because Khanga stays at 80 base speed for the 2nd turn. Nonetheless, it locks in kills vs most Ghosts, and then sets you up for a very good sweep.

--------------------------------------

A strange note: it is actually better to switch in a Steel Type / Rock Type and take the Super-Effective Power-up Punch repeatedly, rather than take the unresisted Return, SE Crunch, or SE Earthquake.

Therefore, Ferrothorn can take non-Fire Punch variants, as can Skarmory. Skarmory can't do jack **** outside of phaze however.

 

[November Blue]

I can attest to Gliscor, Conkeldurr, and Lucario being good checks. If you can predict well, Conkeldurr laughs at Kanga.

One good way to keep it in check is with Toxic support. Bulky Pokemon such as Gliscor can wall it while the poison wears it down.

Aegislash is a good choice too - It's immune to Return and PuP, and smart use of King's Shield can erase its boosts.


It's too early in the metagame's development to be calling for quickbans. This is the point where we find new ways to deal with powerful threats like this, not cut the meta down.

 

[Dragontamer]

I can attest to Gliscor, Conkeldurr, and Lucario being good checks. If you can predict well, Conkeldurr laughs at Kanga.

One good way to keep it in check is with Toxic support. Bulky Pokemon such as Gliscor can wall it while the poison wears it down.

Aegislash is a good choice too - It's immune to Return and PuP, and smart use of King's Shield can erase its boosts.

King's Shield doesn't erase boosts from Earthquake or Sucker Punch, the two moves that are run on most Khangaskahn. There is no "King's Shield" game when the opponent refuses to make contact.

As for Conkeldurr: +1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 381-448 (100 - 117.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO

He falls to the standard "Scrappy Power-up Punch" into Mega-Return, which happens to beat the majority of Khanga's so called "counters". Khan has the bulk to survive Mega Vacuum Wave and Mega-Mach Punch.

252+ SpA Adaptability Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 204-244 (57.95 - 69.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 208-248 (59.09 - 70.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But aside from that, Kangaskahn can outspeed any Lucario switchin by simply Mega-Evolving. And Mega-khan easily KOs with Earthquake, so Lucario is a soft-check at best (winning only vs the Scrappy Power-up Punch strategy).

It's too early in the metagame's development to be calling for quickbans. This is the point where we find new ways to deal with powerful threats like this, not cut the meta down.

Then come up with a proper counter for Khangaskan. IMO, the strategies to beat are: Scrappy PuP -> Sweep with +1, and Mega PuP -> Sweep with +2.

Thats pretty much it. I'm fairly certain Mega-Khan beats all of his opponents with those two strategies, outside of the ghosts I mentioned earlier (several of which, are Pokebank)

 

[Kejmur]

Quagsire is 2HKOd by Return (iirc), so it can't switch in, and it's easy to stall out Recover just saying.

Rocky Helm DeoD is a good deterent too, alex.

I feel like something is really wrong when you seriously consider throwing Rocky Helmet on Deoxys-D just to deterent MegaKangashkan... On Garchomp and Ferrothorn it at least make some sense taking into account Rough Skin.

I'm not saying it's broken, but annoying as hell it sure is, taking into account that I prefer defensive teams more. While I'm trying to be more creative when building teams anyway (my own rule is to throw at least one non-standard Pokemon), but it's still really hard to stop for them. Although I admit that little 4MMS syndrome is certainly there (lack of Fire Blast means Skarmory is decent against you, etc.), but in most cases it is a problem.

It's too early in the metagame's development to be calling for quickbans. This is the point where we find new ways to deal with powerful threats like this, not cut the meta down.

Problem with this statement is one - quick bans already happened in case of Blaziken and Deoxys-N, so it wouldn't be strange if something else followed after quickly. I don't say it must be MegaKangashkan, but your point is kind of moot because of those quick bans ;).

EDIT: Ok, for Rapid Spin kind of as well, but I would say it's kind of really situational item choice in my opinion on him. I'd rather pick Leftovers for Deoxys-D anyway. Or even Shed Shell, as being Psychic type weak against MegaGengar is not the best news on the planet as well. And honestly I don't understand your U-Turn example here - I don't think you will stay with Deoxys-S just to take SE U-Turn from them ? Or you mean in overall to discourage U-Turn spam with Rocky Helmet on some walls/pivots ? If you mean second one, my opinion on RH was aimed only on Deoxys-D using it.

EDIT 2: Everything explained in PM, I won't continue this talk.

 

[Shurtugal]

Rocky Helmet Deo-D deters Rapid Spin spamming too so, no, something really isn't wrong with that. (Note: Genesect and Scizor U-turn spam a lot too and on a whole RockyHelm isn't a bad item choice. Kang is certainly something that makes RH more appealing, though.)

EDIT @ Above: All of Deo-D's item choices are situational (Mental Herb, Red Card, etc.) and Leftovers on Deo-D is a really bad item choice (it doesn't do anything worth while, espec. when you want it to die fast so you can get your hazards up and go). Anyway, this argument is pointless: I agree that Kang is broken, and I don't agree that RockyHelm is an item that is less valuable than Leftovers or any of it's other item choices. Sorry Mods, I won't entertain this argument further so we don't derail discussion. (I'll address your arguments in VM Above user)

 

[Thorhammer]

The thing about Blaziken and Deoxys is, we've had plenty of time to see their performance in past metagames. Deoxys barely had a reason to get a chance in OU; I think most people were surprised that it got even a bit of time.

Kangaskhan is new; its only chance for examination has been the bit of time recently. I do agree that it deserves a close look before anything else, and that it might even be worth setting up a Suspect ladder for it already. We shouldn't be hasty; Pokemon have defied initial expectations of being broken before, like Reuniclus. But it's definitely the one big concern in the metagame as it stands.

That said, regarding Rocky Helmet, it's not like it was unheard of as an option for Skarmory and Deoxys-D before this. It's a bit niche, but it's not as ridiculous as say running Cofagrigus.

 

[Dragontamer]

Oh, when Pokebank comes bay, a new slew of counters will come up: The Fighting Musketeers.

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 256-302 (79.01 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 398-471 (113.06 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hitting 108 speed and resisting Return goes a long way. Part of the problem is that pre-Pokebank, these guys aren't available. But overall, switching in with enough bulk for a Return / Earthquake, then outspeeding and OHKOing with something is outstandingly difficult vs Khan.

Rocky Helmet Garchomp is one of the better counters though. I do believe he is a true counter in every sense of the word... and I personally liked to run my Garchomps with +HP and +Def EVs... at least when Stealth Rocks was available.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

The thing about Blaziken and Deoxys is, we've had plenty of time to see their performance in past metagames. Deoxys barely had a reason to get a chance in OU; I think most people were surprised that it got even a bit of time.

You are incorrect, unless you're referring all the way back to the beginning of Gen IV, and god knows if he was legal then. Deoxys' Normal forme was never actually given a chance in Gen V, as he was banned in the round 1 suspect vote, which was incidentally the same round in which Deoxys-A was legal. Not a single soul used him that round, as he was purely outclassed.

 

[Raikaria]

This is flat out wrong. M-Kanga loses to anything, and I mean anything reasonably bulky with Counter, for starters.
It can't do a damn thing against Unaware Quagsire, who easily beats it with Toxic/Scald and spams recover in its face.
Conkeldurr is reasonably bulky to count as a defensive answer and can spam Drain Punch to beat M-Kanga one-on-one.
Ghost types with WoW such as Sableye completely shut it down. Hell, almost any defensive pokemon with either Toxic or WoW can just cripple it and proceed to stall until it either bites the dust or it's forced out.

M-Kanga has plenty of defensive checks so think outside the box before making such bold statements.

252 + Speed Nature Mega Kanga deals 49.49% ~ 58.12% with Return to Max/Max Bold Quaggy. That's a very solid chance at a 2HKO with hazards; and you have to remember there are 4 hits that could all possibly critical as well.

If Kanga is running Adamant it is 58.62% ~ 63.95%; a clear 2HKO.

Conkeldurr isn't exactly a great pokemon in a meta with Talonflame and Ageislash; and even then; it's not as bulky as Quaggy; especially as it won't be running 252/252 Bold.

Ghost types lose if Kanga predicts the switch and just crushes them with Scrappy Return on the switch. Burns hardly destroy it; since +2 Kanga with a burn is still effectively +0 Base 125 Atk with two hits per turn [Or a Choice Band. Whichever way you wanna slice it]. All burns do is slow it down and put it on a timer. Also Earthquake beats ghosts not called Driftblim; Mismagius and Gengar.

Also; in that case; you just switch out to a special attacker to absorb the burn; kill the ghost and them sweep with Kanga later. Kanga doesn't exactly care much about losing +2 with how easily he can get it; and his raw power in the first place hardly REQUIRES it to sweep; especially lategame.

Oh, when Pokebank comes bay, a new slew of counters will come up: The Fighting Musketeers.

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 256-302 (79.01 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 398-471 (113.06 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hitting 108 speed and resisting Return goes a long way. Part of the problem is that pre-Pokebank, these guys aren't available. But overall, switching in with enough bulk for a Return / Earthquake, then outspeeding and OHKOing with something is outstandingly difficult vs Khan.

Rocky Helmet Garchomp is one of the better counters though. I do believe he is a true counter in every sense of the word... and I personally liked to run my Garchomps with +HP and +Def EVs... at least when Stealth Rocks was available.

So; aside from the fact that Cobalion wasn't OU and now faces even more competition; and the fact this is not 'The Musketeers' but only one of them; what about the inevitable Sucker Punch follow-up after you've switched in and taken 80+ and hazard damage? If Cobalion has any prior damage at all this is dangerous; and requires a sacrifice to get it in. And if Kanga is at +0 and in danger of being OHKO'ed... he's just gonna switch out and KO Coablion on the next exchange.

Rockey Helmet Garchomp being even thought as viable to deal with this thing just shows how broken it is and how much it needs the boot.

 

[alexwolf]

Rockey Helmet Garchomp being even thought as viable to deal with this thing just shows how broken it is and how much it needs the boot.

Rocky Helmet bulky Garchomp was viable way before Mega Kangaskhan existed and a very good SR setter in BW2.

No more talk about banning Mega Kangaskhan.

 

[Luigi player]

I think Whimsicott could be good against MKhan too. It would need physical bulk EVs and then it can do whatever it wants. You can just switch it in to Kanga too.

- PuP? Shouldn't do much. Encore then paralyze it with Stun Spore or raise your defense +3 with Cutton Guard and then paralyze... ; almost everything will be faster than it and should be able to deal with it much easier (especially Ghosts will have it easier if you Encore a normal or fighting move).

- Return? I think it should be able to survive, but I'm not sure... without a prior boost and if you're going with physical bulk it really should be able to, though... then just do the things from above.

- EQ / Crunch (doesn't care, encore, then stun/seed/whatever)

- Substitute? Encore, then do whatever (it'll be switched anyway)

So it's a nice switch-in that is almost guaranteed to at least cripple MKhan enough so that its teammates will be able to deal with it. Though the 75 % accuracy could be annoying... encore would surely help though, unless you don't have switch ins for the encored move.

 

[Shurtugal]

alexwolf, while I do agree that Rocky Helm is a great deterrent for Kangs, I wouldn't say that in itself is enough to completely rule out, in the very least, a suspect test. Arguments presented in this thread are strong enough to support a suspect test at the very least for Kangs, and we shouldn't be so quick to rule out possible banning either.

Luigi player isn't Whismicott a bit unorthodox to consider as a counter / check? What other merits does it bring apart from being Kang, really?

 

[newtonja]

one pokemon mega kang hates is sableye, it really can't do much to it, and absolutely hates burns with a passion, yes I am aware that you can simply not mega evolve it but let's be realistic here, mega kang sucks unevolved, I doubt you could do much to a sableye with a normal kang

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

one pokemon mega kang hates is sableye, it really can't do much to it, and absolutely hates burns with a passion, yes I am aware that you can simply not mega evolve it but let's be realistic here, mega kang sucks unevolved, I doubt you could do much to a sableye with a normal kang

The question is, why would you fight a sableye with kang anyway?