Pokémon Kangaskhan

[DukeofFortuneMan]

I enjoy Mega-Kangaskhan, but I feel his place is primarily as a revenge killer when not used in teams volt-turn-heavy, because his type is pretty abyssmal for switching in.

Right now I have a set in theory for a revenge killer Kanga, but I'd like some feedback, since this is one of the pokemon I have yet to breed 6IVs in.


Para-Flinch-Abuse Revenge Killer
Kangaskhan @ Kanghaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 Hp (Placeholder until I calculate out how many speed EVs I can practically lower for more hp)
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide
- Power-up Punch/Body Slam/Return/Earthquake

My team in question also runs Togekiss and Slowbro on thunder wave, and is meant to abuse flinch rates and be truly annoying. Kanga is meant not only to revenge-kill, but also to get over potential problems by bullying the flinch rate coupled with paralysis, as well as the team makes up for Kanga's less-than-stellar speed. Rock Slide I think can stay on this set, but that leaves me with a dire case of four-moveslot syndrome. I can either use a strong stab, another paralysis setup, rock/ground coverage, boosting on weaker opponents. It's a tough call.

I am kind-of against removing Rock Slide, as that's part of the team's gimmick, but could some people convince me towards one or the other fourth move options?

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I enjoy Mega-Kangaskhan, but I feel his place is primarily as a revenge killer when not used in teams volt-turn-heavy, because his type is pretty abyssmal for switching in.

Right now I have a set in theory for a revenge killer Kanga, but I'd like some feedback, since this is one of the pokemon I have yet to breed 6IVs in.


Para-Flinch-Abuse Revenge Killer
Kangaskhan @ Kanghaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 Hp (Placeholder until I calculate out how many speed EVs I can practically lower for more hp)
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide
- Power-up Punch/Body Slam/Return/Earthquake

My team in question also runs Togekiss and Slowbro on thunder wave, and is meant to abuse flinch rates and be truly annoying. Kanga is meant not only to revenge-kill, but also to get over potential problems by bullying the flinch rate coupled with paralysis, as well as the team makes up for Kanga's less-than-stellar speed. Rock Slide I think can stay on this set, but that leaves me with a dire case of four-moveslot syndrome. I can either use a strong stab, another paralysis setup, rock/ground coverage, boosting on weaker opponents. It's a tough call.

I am kind-of against removing Rock Slide, as that's part of the team's gimmick, but could some people convince me towards one or the other fourth move options?

You should not use flinching and paralysis to be in order to be "annoying"; you should use it to win by the free turns that it generates and the speed control. I really do not see the point of Rock Slide due to its low accuracy, lack of coverage, and no STAB. It probably KOs Talonflame though.

I never used Mega Kangaskhan, but I would recommend Return over Body Slam for a power Pokemon that is able to generate KOs. 20% fewer base power on Body Slam is not worth it most of the time, just for a 25% chance of a free turn.

Regarding Rock Slide:

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 208-247 (60.9 - 72.4%)

vs.

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 102-121 (29.9 - 35.4%)

So you need to hit twice with Rock Slide in order to have a breakeven return on investment (that the opportunity cost of using a moveslot that can be used for a better coverage move or Substitute). And that is assuming Rock Slide hits all four times in two turns, since each hit is an iterative trial on the RNG. Even with paralysis, you have an approximately 60% chance {1 - (.75)[1 - .9x.3][1 - .9x.3]} of a "free turn" with a lower pay off than Hypnosis and lower accuracy than Focus Blast

 

[Dragontamer]

Halcyon:

I'm assuming that Kangaskhan was running Jolly to outspeed Lucario, Hydreigon, Genesect, Excadrill, and all of the other threats between +Speed 87 and +Speed 100. If the standard set is Adamant, I'd have to disagree with that as well. Lucario and Hydreigon in particular survive the +2 Sucker Punch and can threaten an OHKO.

Faster Earthquake stops Lucario from mega-evoling and sweeping your team. (it doesn't stop an already-evolved Mega Lucario of course).

-----------------

Focusing back on the discussion... there are two issues at play here: Jolly vs Adamant, and EQ vs Crunch vs Sucker Punch.

Jolly +2 Sucker Punch wins vs Noivern: +2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 306-361 (98.3 - 116%)

Jolly vs Adamant barely matters for Garchomp. (Adamant gives a very minor OHKO chance with Stealth Rocks in play, but realistically we want Garchomp worn down a bit before attempting a Kanga sweep)
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 265-313 (74.2 - 87.6%)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 291-343 (81.5 - 96%)

In either case, it seems like Kanga is forced to take a hit from Garchomp, and then use Return. Garchomp may be threatening a Mega+Swords Dance set for example, and the Sucker Punch gives it the opportunity. Kill it now with Return, and take a hit seems like the safest strategy.

In your side, I'll ceed Latios, and (Specs) Noivern with respect to Sucker Punch. It should be noted that Specs Noivern fails to OHKO Kanga however, and Jolly Sucker Punch OHKOs Latios / 2HKOs Noivern. On the Jolly vs Adamant debate, Jolly seems favorable here.

You're also right with Terrakion, he's irrelevant. (Beats all forms of Kanga on the revenge-kill, but fails to win on the switch-in). If anything, Terrakion shows that Power-up Punch + Sucker Punch is useful in stopping that switchin. On Jolly vs Adamant, I still think the calculations favor Jolly.

On the Jolly + Earthquake side of the argument, there is Aegislash and Lucario. Jolly and +2 Return cleanly KOs Hydreigon (and +0 Jolly Return has a good chance for OHKO with Stealth Rocks), which is an important speed tier IMO. So unless Lucario gets banned, IMO, its important to stop Lucario from OHKOing Kanga and going Mega (completely reversing the momentum of the match). Kanga can stay in and OHKO with Earthquake, because Mega-mechanics favor the `mon who is staying in. (Lucario's base 90 speed effects you for the first turn of mega-combat).

 

[DunnoBro]

Notice to Smeargle Users:

Stop investing into HP on your sash leads, invest into defense instead. This prevents Khan from being able to set-up on you as it can't kill you with PU then.

lucario: a +2 pu punch kills lucario anyway so EQ isn't needed really unless for some reason they switched lucario in on a fake out or something.

 

[DukeofFortuneMan]

So you need to hit twice with Rock Slide in order to have a breakeven return on investment (that the opportunity cost of using a moveslot that can be used for a better coverage move or Substitute). And that is assuming Rock Slide hits all four times in two turns, since each hit is an iterative trial on the RNG. Even with paralysis, you have an approximately 60% chance {1 - (.75)[1 - .9x.3][1 - .9x.3]} of a "free turn" with a lower pay off than Hypnosis and lower accuracy than Focus Blast

Yeah, that's a good point. The damage differential is too big, I guess it was just a fun theory I wanted to hold onto. Whatever. I still think he'd be a good teammate for Togekiss and Slowbro, as between them they wall most fighting staples and paralysis helps him outspeed faster pokemon.

 

[Dragontamer]

lucario: a +2 pu punch kills lucario anyway so EQ isn't needed really unless for some reason they switched lucario in on a fake out or something.[/quote]

I double-checked the calcs, and it seem like you're right. Still, I think this is an argument in favor of Jolly Mega-Khan.

 

[McGrrr]

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 8 SDef / 192 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch / Knock Off
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

• 2HKOs everything not immune to Seismic Toss without 378 HP and Leftovers.
• Jolly & 192 Speed Evs to outrun Mega Garchomp, Adamant Mega Pinsir, neutral base 100, beneficial base 90, Rotom etc.
• 60 Attack Evs for the 95% (93.75% + 20% defense drop) OHKO on Deoxys-S with Crunch. Another 12 Evs guarantee the OHKO, but there's really not much point.
• 248 HP EVs to minimise Rocky Helmet Damage.
• Spare 8 EVs distributable in either defense depending on whether you prefer Download to give Genesect an Attack or Special Attack boost. Note that 8 SpDef Evs does actually make a difference to the damage output for e.g. Rotom Hydro Pump.
• Crunch is really useful with that Defense drop preventing things like Celebi and Blissey from ruining your day.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 330-388 (79.9 - 93.9%)
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 340-402 (82.3 - 97.3%)

Bulky as hell. I haven't battled much in Pokebank, but I've been very happy with this thing's contribution. I give it Stealth Rock support and occasional screens.

Example battles:
1. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-67139392
2. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-67159636

 

[RowDog]

Damn this thing is so broken. I have seen it take down entire teams by its lonesome self (well I guess it is accompanied by its baby) just after 1 turn of set up which does damage.
Look at this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oubeta-67237120
OHKOs his entire team, and at the time which I switched in there was no stopping it. And that is not a one time video, you time her right and it's pretty much gg. I've even seen people open with mega-khan and take down a couple of Pokes giving a crazy lead from the get go.

Like Blazinblue2 said at the end, damn mega-khan, damn.

 

[Flechazo]

Personally, I think there needs to be a suspect test. This thing is way too difficult to take down, and because of that Pokemon Online already banned it. The only "reliable" ways to kill it are either to switch in immediately Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or Garchomp or damage Mega Kanga when it switches in, sack your Pokemon, and bring in Talonflame as a revenge killer to outspeed its Sucker Punch. Not to mention Ferrothorn and Garchomp are very crappy counters considering that killing Kanga necessitates that you sack either of them.

 

[Loupeitak]

Hey there, new here. Been reading up a lot of this discussion on Earthquake or Crunch or whatever. What I found to be the set that works best for me is this:

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Return
- Earthquake
- Crunch

You look at it and wonder, where is Power up Punch? Well, IMO, Mega Kanga works amazingly like this, leaving a lot of dents on many pokemon which someone else can sweep later with priority (Talonflame is excelent for this role). You come in and Return, OHKOing or leaving a huge dent on whatever switched in. You can then finish it off with a Sucker Punch or switch out if you need to. With max HP, it can virtually take a hit from anything and dish a huge blow back as well. Best part is, at 100%, it will take down Sub-Disable Gengars (They sub, expecting a switch or Sucker Punch, you crunch and can potentially OHKO, then sucker punch when they try to disable your Crunch. They will then either Aura Sphere you, which you can tank, baring a crit, or switch out), doesn't fear Aegislash with Quake, can take on the Grass Ghosts.

IMO, instead of setting up, leave a dent on something and switch out. It's 6v6, not Kanga vs 6. No need for the full out sweep ;)
(Btw, all my opinions are for pre-pokebank. I have never played pokebank active, hence, cannot comment on how this set works for it)

 

[Flechazo]

I think the lack of PuP really hurts Mega Kang because it's meant to be a sweeper--a very broken one at that. Kanga doesn't want to be switching since it can be hurt on the switch and then possibly revenge killed by Talonflame, one of the few reliable ways to kill it when it's running PuP. Otherwise, it's very easy to kill. It's the combination of PuP and Parental Bond that makes Mega Kang so threatening--and scary.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Hey there, new here. Been reading up a lot of this discussion on Earthquake or Crunch or whatever. What I found to be the set that works best for me is this:

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Return
- Earthquake
- Crunch

You look at it and wonder, where is Power up Punch? Well, IMO, Mega Kanga works amazingly like this, leaving a lot of dents on many pokemon which someone else can sweep later with priority (Talonflame is excelent for this role). You come in and Return, OHKOing or leaving a huge dent on whatever switched in. You can then finish it off with a Sucker Punch or switch out if you need to. With max HP, it can virtually take a hit from anything and dish a huge blow back as well. Best part is, at 100%, it will take down Sub-Disable Gengars (They sub, expecting a switch or Sucker Punch, you crunch and can potentially OHKO, then sucker punch when they try to disable your Crunch. They will then either Aura Sphere you, which you can tank, baring a crit, or switch out), doesn't fear Aegislash with Quake, can take on the Grass Ghosts.

IMO, instead of setting up, leave a dent on something and switch out. It's 6v6, not Kanga vs 6. No need for the full out sweep ;)
(Btw, all my opinions are for pre-pokebank. I have never played pokebank active, hence, cannot comment on how this set works for it)

Although I'm not a great subscriber to the everything is a sweeper mentality, I do think this set in general is outclassed. I realise you're discussing pre-pokebank sets, but I'll digress because that era is coming to an end. If you're looking at wallbreaking with Mega-kang and investing in bulk, Post-pokebank, the Seismic Toss set does it better, not fearing burn, being able to invest even more heavily in bulk and having more team utility with reliable wish protect recovery and huge wish passes. Otherwise, the regular PuP set is just so much more threatening. If a Mega-kang doesn't PuP my sac mon or my switch in, it's always a sigh of relief in my eyes, never an unpleasant surprise.

EDIT: Also while I'm here, guys, please continue running Adamant Kang's for as long as possible. I'd really appreciate my Lucario being able to revenge you without finding a turn to Mega-Evolve. Kthnx <3.

 

[Loupeitak]

IMO PuP won't be doing much damage either, leaving Kanga prone to getting hit by something and then revenge killed by Talonflame, much the same way as a non-PuP Kanga will be getting hit on a switch. This with a sacrifice of either Quake, Crunch or Sucker Punch, all of which I found to be required.

 

[Varnithis]

It's not perfect, but I've been using one of my favorite pokemon to deal with Kang and set up Physical atackers in general lately. Krookodile got a 10 stat buff to his defense, and I figured "why not" and have been running him like this:

Krookodile@Rocky Helmet
Moxie
Jolly, 252 Def/252 Spe/4 Atk
Earthquake
Crunch/Stone Edge
Hone claws
Foul Play

If MegaKhan isn't running Jolly max speed, you can swithc into PuP, and then surprise bonk them with Foul Play. It's easily a KO after Rockey Helmet. Then, if they send in another big mean mon, you do a huge pile of damage with your Moxie boost hopefully. I'm sure others could improve on this but I've enjoyed making some use of the ole Nile Bandit.

Of course, if it IS a smart, Jolly MegaKhan running Pup/retrun/crunch/SP, you probably lose. As someone on Wifi primarly, it's reaching the point where if you see Khan int he preview, you bring your rockey helmet out and hope they are dumb. Teams designed to weed out big momma's counters are nigh unstoppable right now. I only dread Pokebank SubDisable MeGengar more. That's going to be awful.

 

[McGrrr]

From November usage statistics:

Relative to other Mega Pokemon, Kangaskhan is indeed centralising, and will be even more so as Gengarite is now banned.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Seriously: what counters MegaKhan? I'm basically forced to use a ghost, and even they get taken out by Crunch (I can usually work around Sucker Punch with Trevenant or Gengar).

This is why I can't wait for lower tiers, assuming it isn't banned. In the meantime, ladies and gents, does anyone have anything that actually can check or counter this monster with any semblance of reliability? Hippowdon? Dies. Gliscor? Nope. Skarmory? Power Up Punch on the switch makes Crunch outdamage Roost, so even if you Whirlwind, the bird takes some serious damage in the process.

The only thing that comes close that I can think of is Sableye, which is neutral to Crunch and can burn Kangaskhan. Anything else? At all? The girl's so offensive and so bulky.

 

[56k]

I really like the bulkier sets with Adamant nature and some HP EVs in there because I'm just that kind of guy. So just what can you outspeed if you're running Adamant?

32 Speed EVs to beat max Tyranitar
64 Speed EVs to beat max Scizor
108 Speed EVs to beat max Breloom and Cloyster and Metagross
120 Speed EVs to beat max MegaTyranitar and Tyrantrum
152 Speed EVs to beat max MegaScizor
176 Speed EVs to beat max Heatran
180 Speed EVs to beat max Blastoise and MegaBlastoise
185 Speed EVs to beat max Mamoswine and Dragonite
208 Speed EVs to beat max Gyarados
252 Speed EVs to beat max Rotom-W

Who aren't you outspeeding because you are adamant?
Max Excadrill, max Lucario, max Landorus-T, max Kyurem-B, max Haxorus, max Hydreigon, max Genesect, can't speed tie base 100s.

I like the 108 Speed EVs pick in particular because once I start investing more than 100 or so EVs I start to think I should probably just be jolly instead...

 

[utktrumpet22]

This thing has been wrecking for me, too.

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Claw

I've played around with a few things in the last slot: Earthquake, Crunch, Drain Punch, and even Fire Punch. The team is offensive and I find that applying the pressure with an unanticipated Shadow Claw usually shocks my opponent into a mistake, or takes out a key player on their team which sets up a sweep. Still have trouble with Ferrothorn and annoyers can give me problem if they get a lucky proc, for example a Swagkey or Sableye. Protean is a little tough to work around, too. I really like being able to smash past subs and I actually use this thing as a lead most of the time, which has freaked a few people out.

 

[Ash Borer]

Seriously: what counters MegaKhan? I'm basically forced to use a ghost, and even they get taken out by Crunch (I can usually work around Sucker Punch with Trevenant or Gengar).

This is why I can't wait for lower tiers, assuming it isn't banned. In the meantime, ladies and gents, does anyone have anything that actually can check or counter this monster with any semblance of reliability? Hippowdon? Dies. Gliscor? Nope. Skarmory? Power Up Punch on the switch makes Crunch outdamage Roost, so even if you Whirlwind, the bird takes some serious damage in the process.

The only thing that comes close that I can think of is Sableye, which is neutral to Crunch and can burn Kangaskhan. Anything else? At all? The girl's so offensive and so bulky.

skarm dies to +2 fire punch too. Kangas should start carrying knock off > crunch soon anyways, which will be hard on the rocky helmet tactics. Knock off on sableye's switch in will hurt like hell and cause it to lose its lefties too.

I try and play around mega kanga with a combination of landorus-therian @ rocky helmet, and terrakion. Landorus switches in on power up punch, or an all out attacker and tries to punish it by shaving off some health, and earthquaking it if tries to set up even further and killing it. Terrakion is a good offensive check because it can take a +2 or +1 sucker punch if it has enough strength left, and it can switch in in a pinch. That being said, +1 sucker punch still does a lot to terrakion, and +1 sucker straight up ohkos the fast parts of my team, and return the slower. Even with considerable compensation it can sweep. Kanga is just so hard to fight.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

kanga is fucked up. i used a team of mega kang + deoxys (for hazards) + a voltturn core (rotom-w, knock off landorus-t, tornadus-t) and aegislash and it's been wrecking. my only losses so far were to other mega kangs, which generally have the tendency of being horribly played by some random scrub.

barring stuff like prankster will-o-wisp (or fuck me scarf rotom wisp i actually resorted to something like this before) this guy destroys shit like no tomorrow. even land-t has issues because it gets screwed over without the helmet to rack up damage (and with helmet you lose a fair bit of survivability, because no roost -.-)

knock off dudes in particular are great kanga partners because it gets really addictive knocking off everybody and their mom's choice scarf and rocky helmets.

(im going to laugh if kanga gets top for this month because its seriously that big. that said, i've also derped around with mega mawile, and guess what? my only losses were to mega kang teams. ._.)

 

[Ash Borer]

(im going to laugh if kanga gets top for this month because its seriously that big. that said, i've also derped around with mega mawile, and guess what? my only losses were to mega kang teams. ._.)

haha, I had a team with mega mawile that I was doing decently with, and I had to swap it out for terrakion, and put a rocky helmet on lando-t because kanga beat for almost all my losses. Kanga is one of those pokemon you have to have really dedicated checks to.

 

[Dragontamer]

Seriously: what counters MegaKhan? I'm basically forced to use a ghost, and even they get taken out by Crunch (I can usually work around Sucker Punch with Trevenant or Gengar).

This is why I can't wait for lower tiers, assuming it isn't banned. In the meantime, ladies and gents, does anyone have anything that actually can check or counter this monster with any semblance of reliability? Hippowdon? Dies. Gliscor? Nope. Skarmory? Power Up Punch on the switch makes Crunch outdamage Roost, so even if you Whirlwind, the bird takes some serious damage in the process.

The only thing that comes close that I can think of is Sableye, which is neutral to Crunch and can burn Kangaskhan. Anything else? At all? The girl's so offensive and so bulky.

Sableye and Eviolite Dusknoir can take 3 Mega-crunches each, and threaten Will o Wisp. Sableye has prankster recover, but can't rely on it too much through Crunch-hax.

MKhan's weakest attack is actually Power-up Punch. A weird bulky (252 Def / 252+ Speed) Terrakion can switch into PuP, survive, take a sucker punch, and still OHKO with 0 EVed Fist Plate Close Combat. (I know... EQ means it isn't a counter). It seems a bit niche for a conditional-check however...

Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn deals at least 50% dmg to `khan before it dies, putting it within reach of Talonflame Brave Bird revenge kills.

 

[farranpoison]

I'm personally hoping that when Pokebank comes around, the rumors will be true and we won't be able to use anything but Kalos-bred mons. So, that pretty much negates the need to worry about Seismic Toss, Knock Off, and Fire Punch, which makes preparing for MKanga much easier.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I'm personally hoping that when Pokebank comes around, the rumors will be true and we won't be able to use anything but Kalos-bred mons. So, that pretty much negates the need to worry about Seismic Toss, Knock Off, and Fire Punch, which makes preparing for MKanga much easier.

wasn't it confirmed that the blue hexagon in the status screen meant that the pokemon wasn't hacked and has nothing to do with kalos-bred mons?

 

[TheMantyke]

I'm personally hoping that when Pokebank comes around, the rumors will be true and we won't be able to use anything but Kalos-bred mons. So, that pretty much negates the need to worry about Seismic Toss, Knock Off, and Fire Punch, which makes preparing for MKanga much easier.

Given other situations in game, this seems unlikely. Lysandre's Gyarados in X&Y uses Iron Head and is able to Mega Evolve. Iron Head is currently available only from 4th or 5th gen tutors on Gyarados. It is perfectly possible that gamefreak was anticipating Gen 6 move tutors or simply made a mistake ala Barrier Dragonite, but it seems more likely that older Pokemon can still Mega Evolve. I'd say go ahead and cautiously speculate about Kangaskhan with old move tutor attacks on hand.