Kartana Discussion

Actually, despite Kartana's higher Atk stat, M-Luke's Adaptability and higher BP moves makes it the harder-hitter out of the two of them:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 244-288 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 162-192 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

However, with Beast Boost (aka Moxie) taken into account (and, like previously mentioned, its physical bulk and typing, making it unable to withstand most priority moves), Kartana is looking to be a terrifying late-game sweeper.
Lucario hits as hard as +1 181 att Kartana like what the actual
 
Lucario hits as hard as +1 181 att Kartana like what the actual
Oops! I just realized I forgot to put an item on Kartana. These should be more realistic calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 211-250 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 316-372 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after Beast Boost)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 419-495 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after a Swords Dance)

(Fightceus was used as a reference point on Kartana's damage output)
 
Level Up

L1 - Sacred Sword
L1 - Defog
L1 - Vacuum Wave
L1 - Air Cutter
L1 - Fury Cutter
L1 - Cut
L7 - False Swipe
L13 - Razor Leaf
L19 - Synthesis
L23 - Aerial Ace
L29 - Laser Focus
L31 - Night Slash
L37 - Swords Dance
L43 - Leaf Blade
L47 - X-Scissor
L53 - Detect
L59 - Air Slash
L67 - Psycho Cut
L73 - Guillotine


GF geez we get it, it's super sharp
 
Wow. Get your Vacuum Waver out.
Well, it doesn't seem able to do anything against Charizard.
Actually, can anyone do some math on bulky Intimidate Arcanine switching into this? It seems to rely on brute forcing its way past fire types in general, so those with recovery like Charizard and Arcanine shouldn't have that much trouble taking even repeated hits, but I don't know how hard its coverage moves hit.

Ok, so it seems like Kartana's best move to hit Arcanine is Return, so here we go...

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 103 - 122 (26.8% - 31.7%)

If you Swords Dance on the switch:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 231 - 273 (60.1% - 71.0%)

Can't even KO after SR. Then Arcanine comes back with this ferocious move:

0- SpA Arcanine Ember vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 372 - 444 (143.0% - 170.7%)
 
god i love glass cannons so much
Yeah, and this thing is one of the wonkiest glass cannons yet. All that Defense, but in terms of Special bulk I guess you could say its Sp. Defense is paper thin....

Terrible jokes aside, it is one of the few Mons who will actually get decent mileage out of Smart Strike (albeit due to lack of other options), regardless of how hard I end up trying to make Hustle/Smart Strike/ Aerial Ace Togekiss a thing
 
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Ok, so it seems like Kartana's best move to hit Arcanine is Return, so here we go...

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 103 - 122 (26.8% - 31.7%)

If you Swords Dance on the switch:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 231 - 273 (60.1% - 71.0%)

Can't even KO after SR. Then Arcanine comes back with this ferocious move:

0- SpA Arcanine Ember vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 372 - 444 (143.0% - 170.7%)
Move over, Fire Blast, Overheat, and Flare Blitz. You've got some serious competition.
 
If most Kartanas don't carry Return then Zapdos should be a great counter.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 220-259 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Here's Kartana with Return.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 318-376 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
If most Kartanas don't carry Return then Zapdos should be a great counter.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 220-259 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
... but it can't switch in against anything not called Swords Dance...
 
Ok, so it seems like Kartana's best move to hit Arcanine is Return, so here we go...

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 103 - 122 (26.8% - 31.7%)

If you Swords Dance on the switch:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 231 - 273 (60.1% - 71.0%)

Can't even KO after SR. Then Arcanine comes back with this ferocious move:

0- SpA Arcanine Ember vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 372 - 444 (143.0% - 170.7%)
What about Night Slash? It'll want to run it to get through Steel types, and the increased crit chance could help bypass the Intimidate drop.
 
What about Night Slash? It'll want to run it to get through Steel types, and the increased crit chance could help bypass the Intimidate drop.
I'll actually run Sacred Sword to get through Steel-types. Swords Dance/Leaf Blade/Smart Strike/Sacred Sword would probably be its standard set.
 
That Special bulk rivals Deoxys Attack special bulk. Even weak Scalds from the likes of Suicune can 2HKO Kartana with some prior damage. Also, what's with that beefy 131 physical defense? Pretty ridiculous considering Kartana is made of paper.
 
What about Night Slash? It'll want to run it to get through Steel types, and the increased crit chance could help bypass the Intimidate drop.
Night Slash is a decent option for tackling the likes of Jirachi, Mega Metagross and especially Aegislash who resists all your other moves. Not generally recommended considering that your open to more Pokes living a +2 boosted life orb hit if you opt to run NS. NS is also fairly weak due to non STAB despite the godly attack Kartana has. Also, non phys def Jirachi Dies to +2 Sacred Sword with a little chip damage and Mega Metagross takes a lot from it and is unable to OHKO Kartana unless it runs HP Fire.
 
That Special bulk rivals Deoxys Attack special bulk. Even weak Scalds from the likes of Suicune can 2HKO Kartana with some prior damage. Also, what's with that beefy 131 physical defense? Pretty ridiculous considering Kartana is made of paper.
What are easy ways to destroy a Paper Bag? Burning, soaking, extreme voltage, dangerous chemicals, liquid nitrogen, meteors, using an ouija board to have spirits do it for you, and Dracula's moon laser. What's less effective? Throwing rocks at it, biting, earthquakes, and punching your way out of it. (The Mythbusters can tell you how hard that last one is.) What do the easy ways have in common? They're like types that are usually special attacks. (Fire, Water, Electric, Poison, Ice, Dragon, Ghost, and Fairy) What do the less effective things have in common? They're like types that are usually physical attacks. (Rock, Dark, Ground, and Fighting.)

By the way, who's going to abuse this in this gen's Battle Tower? >:D
 
What are easy ways to destroy a Paper Bag? Burning, soaking, extreme voltage, dangerous chemicals, liquid nitrogen, meteors, using an ouija board to have spirits do it for you, and Dracula's moon laser. What's less effective? Throwing rocks at it, biting, earthquakes, and punching your way out of it. (The Mythbusters can tell you how hard that last one is.) What do the easy ways have in common? They're like types that are usually special attacks. (Fire, Water, Electric, Poison, Ice, Dragon, Ghost, and Fairy) What do the less effective things have in common? They're like types that are usually physical attacks. (Rock, Dark, Ground, and Fighting.)

By the way, who's going to abuse this in this gen's Battle Tower? >:D
Agaisnt the Battle Tower you are not the one abusing. Never.
 
I worry more about who's going to abuse this in battle spot. At least with M-Luke you're limited to one and choosing him rules out other megas like Salamence/Kang.

Literally every battle spot team will run this thing and/or Pheramosa. Not to mention the miserable pass chains people will do with Xurkitree
 
I'll actually run Sacred Sword to get through Steel-types. Swords Dance/Leaf Blade/Smart Strike/Sacred Sword would probably be its standard set.
Sounds good for a standard Kartana.

If you want to replace a move in this set for other coverage moves, I suggest replacing Smart Strike with Night Slash or Return. Unaware Clefable and Tapu Bulu will be problematic, so let's hope they run away expecting Smart Strike.
 
I dont see how something with 181 attack, 109 speed, 131 defense and such strong defensive typing could ever been allowed in OU. It has just enough movepool to work.

Kartana @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Jolly
252 attack / 252 speed
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance / Night Slash

The only thing that can really wall this is Charizard Y / Moltres / Zapdos (they need to have a lot of defensive investment to stand up to CB nightslash, though this is nothing new for the two gen 1 legendaries). Thundurus and Volcarona prove good switch ins unless they catch CB night slash! Aegislash does wall the Swords Dance variant, but night slash is a death sentence and 181 attack doesnt really need Swords Dance. Consider that literally every other switch in is either weak to or is demolished by stealth rock too.

I say, straight to ubers.



Leaf Blade's 90 power is plenty.
Not sure if SD is worth running over Night Slash/Psycho Cut, it does have a bit of defense but it's likely far too frail to truly make use of the SD, I believe beast boost is enough, boost wise. Great adamant scarf revenge killer.


Laser Focus seems pointless when it already has Swords Dance and Unaware got nerfed.
I'm not sure if Unaware actually got nerfed, some people were doing tests on /vp/ and said it acts the same as it always has, and that the description was just written poorly.
 
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I'm not sure if Unaware actually got nerfed, some people were doing tests on /vp/ and said it acts the same as it always has, and that the description was just written poorly.
Might be common knowledge at this point, but the supposed Unaware nerf has been debunked by an early player on another thread here.

Also, what's with that beefy 131 physical defense? Pretty ridiculous considering Kartana is made of paper.
What are easy ways to destroy a Paper Bag? Burning, soaking, extreme voltage, dangerous chemicals, liquid nitrogen, meteors, using an ouija board to have spirits do it for you, and Dracula's moon laser. What's less effective? Throwing rocks at it, biting, earthquakes, and punching your way out of it. (The Mythbusters can tell you how hard that last one is.) What do the easy ways have in common? They're like types that are usually special attacks. (Fire, Water, Electric, Poison, Ice, Dragon, Ghost, and Fairy) What do the less effective things have in common? They're like types that are usually physical attacks. (Rock, Dark, Ground, and Fighting.)

By the way, who's going to abuse this in this gen's Battle Tower? >:D
Actually, its design seems to imply something about the structure of its body. Like paper, it's clearly flexible and comparable to an origami piece - this is where the grass typing comes from, most likely. However, despite this flexibility, it manages to stay incredibly hard without breaking - hard as steel apparently. So I just imagine this thing isn't made of paper but actually some super flexible alloy with high strength
 
252 Atk Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Welp, at least gets walled by Amoonguss and OHKOd back with HP Fire
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
I don't think comparing this to Mega Lucario is entirely fair, as Mega Lucario is pretty absurdly strong. But it's also an awful lot stronger than Kartana. To give you an idea, Kartana is slightly weaker than OU staple Terrakion, after move base power is taken into account.

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 162-192 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 168-198 (44 - 51.9%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO

Bearing in mind the appalling neutral coverage from Leaf Blade, I think Kartana is short of moveslots for coverage moves. Coverage moves are going to hit MUCH harder than they would for a Terrakion. For instance, you might think that Thundurus could switch into Kartana, but it's actually OHKOed by a neutral Life Orb Return after SR! Sacred Sword seems necessary for steels, Smart Strike and Return offer a good number of neutral hits, while X-Scissor (for grass and psychic types) and Night Slash (for Aegislash, Jirachi, Metagross and other psychics if not running X-Scissor) seem very useful. I don't think there is space for Swords Dance, and 109 base Speed (in OU at least) is very rarely enough to sweep a team anyway, especially with Kartana's frailty.

Choice scarf and choice band lend themselves to Pokemon with good offensive STABs that can afford to be locked in. Not really sure Choice Scarf is going to catch on, even with the beast boosts.

So on balance I'd probably go with something like this:

Kartana @ Life Orb
Jolly
252 attack / 252 speed
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike / Return
- Sacred Sword
- Night Slash / X-Scissor

Looks quite powerful but I expect OU can deal with it. I suppose if Kartana really becomes too much for you there is always this:

0 SpA Dugtrio Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 240-284 (93.3 - 110.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

That's base 50 Special Attack.
 

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