Pokémon Klefki

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Hardly. Damage variations and crits may be a pain in the ass, but their chances to screw you over are tiny compared to confusion. I'm accepting of 8.5% chance to take 150% damage, because the chance is small enough that it doesn't take place too often (although there is something funky about WHEN it kicks in). I'm not okay with 50% chance to whiff your attack because of somebody wanting to spam Prankster Swagger, because a fifty percent chance to hurt yourself AND miss your turn is utter bullshit. Crits and parahax do squat compared to this.

Anyways, this whole Swagkey stuff is derailing this thread, so I'm not going to be talking about hax any longer. May ask a mod if we can have a talk about confusion and such, but this isn't the place for it.


Get your racist slurs out of here. I don't give a damn who you are or how you talk at home or with your friends, but this is not a place for racism. >:(
Ehh Klefki is pretty good but it's extremely linear, albeit good at the one thing it does, similar to Chansey/Skarmory/Ferrothorn.

Words only have meaning when you give meaning to them. I didn't call him a good for nothing piece of shit n*gger. I called him a nigga, synonym for guy. Don't try to act like you're better than me because I used a specific word.
 
What is a good counter? He kinda wrecks my teams...
Gliscor is the best counter to SwagKey out there.

A general Klefki check is a faster Prankster Taunter. Pre-Bank this means...Liepard. Post-bank you get Tornadus-I, Thundurus-I, and Whimsicott, which are all decent. Just don't run Liepard to check Klefki, that's just dumb.

Just try to avoid having 6 mons with ridiculous Attack stats and you'll be fine. It's quite easy to play around about 80% of the time unless you run 6 Aegislashes or something.

The Klefki variant I feel the most threatened by is Foul Play/Thunder Wave/Reflect/Light Screen, which is ironically what I run, since none of my mons are powerful enough to kill bulky mons through dual screens unless I set up Swords Dances with Talonflame, which is kinda suicide against Klefki.
 
Gliscor is the best counter to SwagKey out there.

A general Klefki check is a faster Prankster Taunter. Pre-Bank this means...Liepard. Post-bank you get Tornadus-I, Thundurus-I, and Whimsicott, which are all decent. Just don't run Liepard to check Klefki, that's just dumb.

Just try to avoid having 6 mons with ridiculous Attack stats and you'll be fine. It's quite easy to play around about 80% of the time unless you run 6 Aegislashes or something.

The Klefki variant I feel the most threatened by is Foul Play/Thunder Wave/Reflect/Light Screen, which is ironically what I run, since none of my mons are powerful enough to kill bulky mons through dual screens unless I set up Swords Dances with Talonflame, which is kinda suicide against Klefki.
I have nothing to stop him from confusing me tho lol (and most of my team has a huge attack stat, accept Ferrothorn right now, if your including sp attack)
I tried Running Bannet to deal with these, but then I never ran into people with the lol.
 
I have nothing to stop him from confusing me tho lol (and most of my team has a huge attack stat, accept Ferrothorn right now, if your including sp attack)
I tried Running Bannet to deal with these, but then I never ran into people with the lol.
Attack, as in physical attack. I don't think Klefki can break Mega Gengar's Subs with Foul Play unless Mega Gengar has already taken a Swagger, which is pretty nice if Klefki switches in as I Mega up, as I can just maul it with Shadow Ball.

Banette gets hugely fucked by Foul Play. You don't even get to move first the turn you Mega anyways.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I have nothing to stop him from confusing me tho lol (and most of my team has a huge attack stat, accept Ferrothorn right now, if your including sp attack)
I tried Running Bannet to deal with these, but then I never ran into people with the lol.
I've found Lum Berry Garchomp to be great in this meta if only because it can set up Swords Dances on Rotom-W. It also has the nice side effect of being able to kill Klefki with EQ.
 
What is a good counter? He kinda wrecks my teams...
Xatu is pretty much the only true counter (be sure to use an attack reducing nature and 0 IV's) but Xatu isn't such a good mon for OU. Next best has already been mentioned in gliscor, or other such bulky ground types. Lum berry sweepers that boost their attack stat can also work.
 
Oh so an annoying set comes out and smogon can just decide to ban it? Well guess what? ALOTOF SHITIS ANNOYING. Get over it. Taunt this, take the status/move and get going.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Oh so an annoying set comes out and smogon can just decide to ban it? Well guess what? ALOTOF SHITIS ANNOYING. Get over it. Taunt this, take the status/move and get going.
This is such an ignorant post and makes me incredibly angry. It's not that I, nor other people wanting to ban Prankster+Swagger, think it's "annoying," rather, it's downright uncompetitive. It relies solely on luck and there is nothing viable that can prevent it. And excuse me, but why should we keep strategies like this that allow unskilled players to beat skilled players? How does that promote a healthy competitive metagame? Oh right, it doesn't. So if you would rather use Prankster+Swagger to win your battles instead of actually improving your skill, then go play some other meta. But I like to think that Smogon prides itself it removing skill-less, luck-based strategies from our metagame in order to make it both more enjoyable, and to ensure that the better player will win a majority of the time.

Seriously, say you have a Garchomp and I have a Klefki left in a last 'mon situation. There shouldn't be any possible way for me to beat you. But with Prankster+Swagger, I can give myself a 50% chance to win even though you outplayed me to the point where your last Pokemon beats my last Pokemon. How is that fair to you at all? Answer: it isn't. And please don't relate this to speed ties or misses. If we both have a Garchomp as our last 'mons then neither of us has an advantage, so a 50/50 is far from uncompetitive. We're both on even footing and THAT comes down to luck. As for misses, you choose to run inaccurate moves, so I don't find that to be uncompetitive either. But there is nothing viable that prevents Prankster+Swagger from turning the game into one big dice role. THAT is my issue with it.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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The issue I find here is how the problem seems to focus on Klefki itself rather than the use of Prankster + Swagger. There were several (swiftly locked) threads pertaining to the 'banning' or 'suspecting' of Prankster Swagger, which you might have guessed were not taken too seriously, though most of these claim the strategy to be "broken" rather than "uncompetitive", not that it made much difference when it came to shutting these threads down.

And now, Klefki, with its usable bulk and typing, has entered the scene. Suddenly even the experienced users are actually warranting it to be banned. I understand that it is much easier to use than other Swagger users, though Sableye comes pretty close. Even then, while Sableye would make a terrifically annoying SwagPlay user (that has STAB, can burn, and can Recover, just having more options overall), Sableye is rarely seen using that set since it can do other things much more reliably, like priority burning. Klefki definitely has other niches as well, such as Prankster Spikes, Prankster Dual Screens, and being the only Prankster T-Wave user that isn't too frail to even survive the turn. So why ban Klefki in general at all?

Never mind the actual banning of Prankster + Swagger, since the main gripe is the nigh unavoidable 50/50 chance (45/55 in Swagger's case actually) to come out on top of an otherwise lopsided match-up. You might as well ban Prankster + Confuse Ray (which not 1, but 3 Pokemon can have) while you're at it, making the whole suspect process much more complicated than it has to be.
 
the main reason i run klefki is to check aegislash with foul play and check non-dark, non-fighting types with swagger as most of them aren't able to fully 2hit KO klefki with leftovers normally and with a swagger on, they will be able to 2hit KO the key but often times wont be able to since confusion and gets OHKO'd back by foul play. spikes and sub are my final sets rounding out my lead options and mid game options
 
I have 2 Klefkis, FoulPlay/Screens/Spikes for absolute support to my tem
And the other one Rain Dance/T-wave/Spikes/Foul Play

I'm just putting Foul Play for many reasons, 2HKO-es Aegislash, Trevenant, breaks through Mega Gengar's Sub, 2HKO-es the random Delphox on internet, Taking the last 15% of Mega Mawile (The fraction that another pokemon didn't complete), and it actually 2HKO-es all the gourgiest etc.

Not to mention I use T-Wave not until the opponent can't move but just for the speed decrease (So T-Waved +3 Quiver Dance Volcarona before I died, sent out Malamar, TOPSY TURVY) not to mention the incredible support of the screens, with the screens and a little of a mind game you can easily set up 3 sets of spikes.
 
This here is why I think a lot of people are calling for bans on Klefki's SwagPlay set. It's literally based solely on luck and it's annoying as fuck (and I will continue to rhyme if I see it one more time heheheh)

But seriously, this thing is not cool. A friend of mine showed me this replay and I felt it was fitting here (also the team really resembles that Gas Pedal OU HO team minus the Deoxys).

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-66663056

Klefki literally swept until the other guy started getting lucky with paralysis not activating and the Klefki weirdly subbing over and over again.
 
If you get parahaxed 10 out of 15 times, as in that replay, it doesn't matter what your opponent is running on their Klefki. You would have died anyway.
 
Does nobody use sub + toxic? I've had success using it on my stall team. It gets plenty of time to set spikes, and prankster sub+toxic is a mean stalling technique. I haven't gotten around to trying Torment > Spikes, but I imagine it'd be good considering very few things carry more than 1 move that can threaten Klefki.

...am I doing it right? Or is Dual Screens better with Spikes?
 
...am I doing it right? Or is Dual Screens better with Spikes?
From what I've seen, either way is completely viable. I know Spikes + Dual Screens is pretty common, but Sub + Toxic could work just as well on a different set.

Also, too bad all the Magic Bouncers are either Psychic-types or really frail (Mega-Absol), or else those could serve as nice ways to check/counter Klefki, depending on the set its running.
 
This here is why I think a lot of people are calling for bans on Klefki's SwagPlay set. It's literally based solely on luck and it's annoying as fuck (and I will continue to rhyme if I see it one more time heheheh)

But seriously, this thing is not cool. A friend of mine showed me this replay and I felt it was fitting here (also the team really resembles that Gas Pedal OU HO team minus the Deoxys).

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-66663056

Klefki literally swept until the other guy started getting lucky with paralysis not activating and the Klefki weirdly subbing over and over again.

Why would anyone set up hazards in front of a Klefki behind a Sub (unless maybe you have an Infiltrator Noivern with Flamethrower to damage it (haven't done the calcs to see if it a KO, at least on a physically defensive spread, and Noivern has fairly low SpeAttack))? One would just be giving away free turns. It is an immediate threat that needs to be dealt with quickly. One would need to maintain their equanimity or either rage quit.

--

Gliscor is the best counter to SwagKey out there.

A general Klefki check is a faster Prankster Taunter. Pre-Bank this means...Liepard. Post-bank you get Tornadus-I, Thundurus-I, and Whimsicott, which are all decent. Just don't run Liepard to check Klefki, that's just dumb.

Just try to avoid having 6 mons with ridiculous Attack stats and you'll be fine. It's quite easy to play around about 80% of the time unless you run 6 Aegislashes or something.

The Klefki variant I feel the most threatened by is Foul Play/Thunder Wave/Reflect/Light Screen, which is ironically what I run, since none of my mons are powerful enough to kill bulky mons through dual screens unless I set up Swords Dances with Talonflame, which is kinda suicide against Klefki.
I would agree it is fairly easy to play around and it is admittedly annoying. The challenge for the Klefki user is to find or create openings to initiate the set up; it is simply not that easy to use. There is now a disadvantage to SwagKeys Klefki. You no longer have the advantage of running an exotic set (such as Prankster Liepard) and many know of its existence and formulate ways on their team to counter it. There is indeed a chance that the meta would just adapt and one would have to have abandon using it.

You could also use Swagger to get out jams similar to some "Heart of the Cards" bullshit.

-----

Regarding luck, I don't see how this is different from a Choice Specs Keldeo in the Rain where one could just press for a 120 bp Hydro Pump which is practically tantamount "to click this button for an 80% chance for a OHKO on less bulky targets or 64% on more bulky targets". It did have some viable checks in OU, although one would use a Water resist so it has to rely on its Sacred Sword or weakened Hidden Power (with no STAB or rain boost) or Icy Wind.
 
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Well, there's always Own Tempo Lickilicky/Slowbro?

...

Forgive me for asking I suppose, but what makes priority Swagger so much worse than priority Thunder Wave? Thunder Wave, while it can't affect Ground, Electric or Limber pokemon, still imposes a "dice roll" in the form of full paralysis, albeit 25%(?) as opposed to 50%. But then there's also the permanent speed drop on top of that, as well as the fact it isn't going away after switching out bar Natural Cure or having Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. People said Jirachi could be outsped but... paralysis, slows you down. That was the point. Parafusion is a combination of both but that's never come close to being called broken, and Whimsicott is capable of this too with Stun Spore and Swagger. And Thundurus/Tornadus are capable of Prankster parafusflinching of all things! And if Prankster + Swagger is what you want banned, does that mean Prankster + Confuse Ray is still ok? Sableye has three immunities and priority Recover and I never heard ban cries against it, Confuse Ray or Swagger.

I guess I'm asking where people draw the line, because I see a shitload of grey. Double Team made sense because it affects you and not the opponent, which is why accuracy lowering moves never left (even priority accuracy drop lol). I think saying the strategy is uncompetitive is fine, but I am still really curious regarding all the greys and similar cases.

Regarding Klefki itself I agree that priority screens seem far more useful anyway. Defog Gliscor obviously the worst possible encounter for it. I think it's a fantastic way to set up any sweeper with a Ground or Fire move. I love letting Klefki and Rotom try to paralyze/Swagger my Lum Berry Haxorus and proceed to wipe the floor with them with Mold Breaker EQ.
 
Well, there's always Own Tempo Lickilicky/Slowbro?

...

Forgive me for asking I suppose, but what makes priority Swagger so much worse than priority Thunder Wave? Thunder Wave, while it can't affect Ground, Electric or Limber pokemon, still imposes a "dice roll" in the form of full paralysis, albeit 25%(?) as opposed to 50%. But then there's also the permanent speed drop on top of that, as well as the fact it isn't going away after switching out bar Natural Cure or having Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. People said Jirachi could be outsped but... paralysis, slows you down. That was the point. Parafusion is a combination of both but that's never come close to being called broken, and Whimsicott is capable of this too with Stun Spore and Swagger. And Thundurus/Tornadus are capable of Prankster parafusflinching of all things! And if Prankster + Swagger is what you want banned, does that mean Prankster + Confuse Ray is still ok? Sableye has three immunities and priority Recover and I never heard ban cries against it, Confuse Ray or Swagger.

I guess I'm asking where people draw the line, because I see a shitload of grey. Double Team made sense because it affects you and not the opponent, which is why accuracy lowering moves never left (even priority accuracy drop lol). I think saying the strategy is uncompetitive is fine, but I am still really curious regarding all the greys and similar cases.

Regarding Klefki itself I agree that priority screens seem far more useful anyway. Defog Gliscor obviously the worst possible encounter for it.
No one runs Defog Gliscor because that means giving up Poison Heal.

As for Prankster Parafusion, it doesn't actually work against a decent OU team most of the time. When it does it's glorious for the user and the opponent simply complains about it, just like they'd complain if Stone Edge missed and they lost because of that. Swag+T-Wave works a bit better than hoping for a Stone Edge miss, but unless your name is reyscarface it's not consistent enough to rely on for the user.

The opponent, however, doesn't know that, and it either works or doesn't that one encounter. And if it works they come here to complain.
 
No one runs Defog Gliscor because that means giving up Poison Heal.

As for Prankster Parafusion, it doesn't actually work against a decent OU team most of the time. When it does it's glorious for the user and the opponent simply complains about it, just like they'd complain if Stone Edge missed and they lost because of that. Swag+T-Wave works a bit better than hoping for a Stone Edge miss, but unless your name is reyscarface it's not consistent enough to rely on for the user.

The opponent, however, doesn't know that, and it either works or doesn't that one encounter. And if it works they come here to complain.
Oh, it's been legal on the simulator. Add one more to the list of necessary updates.

Well to be fair as was stated, you at least choose to use Stone Edge. I'm more likely to complain when an opposing Swampert gets THREE burns in a row with Scald on three of my mon. That is at least an example of fortunate luck coming from a choice your opponent made, rather than unfortunate luck from a risk you decided to take.
 
Oh, it's been legal on the simulator. Add one more to the list of necessary updates.

Well to be fair as was stated, you at least choose to use Stone Edge. I'm more likely to complain when an opposing Swampert gets THREE burns in a row with Scald on three of my mon. That is at least an example of fortunate luck coming from a choice your opponent made, rather than unfortunate luck from a risk you decided to take.
Scald has a 150% Burn rate, haven't you heard? :P

SwagKey has so many counters to it it's not even funny. Rotom-W, Gliscor, UMBREON (lol no one uses it in OU), Tornadus, Thundurus, Whimsicott (lol), Flamethrower Blissey, and so on. Also stuff like Lum Berry Garchomp wrecks him.

That's not even counting the stuff that checks him. Meanwhile, if you're trying to fish for Scald burns, the opponent can either switch in something that DGAF about the burn and can force out or kill your Scalder. There's a lot more stuff out there that beats Scald than SwagPlay, granted, but they're in a similar boat--it works so rarely against a good team that it's generally not worth it for the user to rely on. The opponent, meanwhile, just rages endlessly.
 
Scald has a 150% Burn rate, haven't you heard? :P

SwagKey has so many counters to it it's not even funny. Rotom-W, Gliscor, UMBREON (lol no one uses it in OU), Tornadus, Thundurus, Whimsicott (lol), Flamethrower Blissey, and so on. Also stuff like Lum Berry Garchomp wrecks him.

That's not even counting the stuff that checks him. Meanwhile, if you're trying to fish for Scald burns, the opponent can either switch in something that DGAF about the burn and can force out or kill your Scalder. There's a lot more stuff out there that beats Scald than SwagPlay, granted, but they're in a similar boat--it works so rarely against a good team that it's generally not worth it for the user to rely on. The opponent, meanwhile, just rages endlessly.
Tornadus, Thundurus, and Whimsicott aren't even out yet and two of them are Uber suspect I'm guessing - who knows what new toys they may have gotten this gen. Blissey cannot 3HKO with flamethrower without sp.att investment (lol) and is still just as susceptible to confusion and paralysis as anything else... even if you choose to aromatherapy the status away, that is still turns lost on your end and Klefki can outstall you anyway, after that a +6 Blissey taking a foul play takes about 30-35% at 252 hp/4 def investment, all it'll take is a turn or two lost to paralysis or confusion. Umbreon isn't particularly great, and then you have 2 counters which is 'so many its not even funny'.

Garchomp only works if Klefki isn't paired with Ditto. Then it WANTS you to kill it. Bad enough you let your opponent get a +2 scarfed Garchomp out on the field, but if you switch in and Klefki subs, then you could potentially give your opponent a +4, or if you smack yourself with confusion, a +6. Assuming your luck isn't so bad you don't just slap yourself into oblivion.

Now how about Magnezone? 2HKO with specs Tbolt, immunity to twave, traps Klefki, poor attack so doesn't fear foul play, has genuine use in OU...
 
Maybe Klefki can utilise Eject button to be a good slow pivot.

Klefki @ eject button
Ability: Prankster
Bold Nature
252Hp / 252 Def / 4 spD
-Thunder Wave/Torment
-Light Screen
-Reflect
-Recycle


The idea is to be a strong pivot that assists a setup sweeper heavily, and is designed to be used with any substitute-using sweeper. On the first use, your aim is to set up the correct screen before being ejected. This gives a sweeper an immediate free switch-in, and it should be able to get behind a substitute with the appropriate blocking screen the next turn.

On the second switch-in you have a different role- your eject button is consumed so not every hit will switch you out. This now gives you the chance of choosing to slow-baton pass to an ally by using recycle on the turn you want klefki to switch out. This means klefki will absorb a hit before passing out to an ally, giving them a free switch.

I added torment as an option instead of thunder wave. I think torment is a strong move to be able to switch certain pokemon into, especially if you have any pokemon on your team with protect- for instance, speed boost sharpedo, yanmega or a pokemon like Vaporeon/Umbreon/Sylveon with wishpass and immunities to certain moves (water/psychic/dragon).All these pokemon can potentially dodge powerful moves aimed at them altogether, and either stall out the enemy with toxic+wish (for the eeveelutions) or just ohko an opponent without access to powerful moves for the speed boosters.



Edit: I thought I'd add some other examples of how eject button strategy can be useful since people dont use it much. Not in a condescending way I just figured it'd be good to just mention a few things.
When passing wish, it can be hard to get the wish to the low hp recipient without them getting hit and dying. Using eject button, you can switch in klefki to absorb a hit and get your wish recipient in safely.

When choice locked into a move and facing a pokemon you can beat if you had the option of changing moves, switch in klefki to absorb a hit and then switch back into your choiced attacker to continue the sweep.


Eject button blocks a pokemon from switching out with u-turn and volt switch if they use it. This is great because it helps break down frustrating voltturn cores (especially scizor, as klefki can easily absorb his banded U-turn with 4x resistance). That being said, klefki should probably leave absorbing rotom-w's volt switches to someone else.

If you get hit by a move boosted by Sheer Force, you wont be switched out. That makes landorus a solid counter due to bypassing eject button shenanigans, hitting klefki on its weaker special defense, and being thunder wave immune
 
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