OU Kyurem-B

alexwolf

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Dragon Claw should be slashed after Outrage on the physically based mixed set Jukain, and Hidden Power Fire should be slashed after Earth Power, for Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor.
 

Jukain

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i am going to make the set outrage | fusion bolt | ice beam | dragon claw / iron head / hidden power fire. i realized how little i was using earth power, and opted for a replacement. dclaw is best usually, but iron head fucks clefable and hp fire is what you said.
 
I admit I'm a little confused on Iron Head for the CB set. The Usage Tips and stuff for that set is still written as if you're running Dragon Claw in the last slot, don't know if you plan on editing that soon, but I have to wonder if a 64.5% chance for +Atk CB Fusion Bolt to 2HKO defensive Clefable after Leftovers is reason enough to consider Iron Head as the first slash. Would it perhaps be considered a better coverage move compared to Dragon Claw?
 
Is there any reason why the Physically based mixed set has Hasty nature over Lonely? Is it aimed at outspeeding specific things? You miss out on quite a bit of power foregoing Lonely, just want to know if there's any threats I'm missing that you'll outspeed with Hasty but not with Lonely, Thanks!
 

Srn

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Is there any reason why the Physically based mixed set has Hasty nature over Lonely? Is it aimed at outspeeding specific things? You miss out on quite a bit of power foregoing Lonely, just want to know if there's any threats I'm missing that you'll outspeed with Hasty but not with Lonely, Thanks!
Excadrill is an important target that you could otherwise get some damage off on. You lose out on offensive Lando-T, who can now stone edge you (although offensive are usually scarf anyway) Just to name a few
 
Excadrill is an important target that you could otherwise get some damage off on. You lose out on offensive Lando-T, who can now stone edge you (although offensive are usually scarf anyway) Just to name a few
Aren't most Excadrill Adamant? And like you said offensive Lando-T is usually scarfed, anything else?
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Aren't most Excadrill Adamant? And like you said offensive Lando-T is usually scarfed, anything else?
When this set was first proposed JOlly/Timid Mega Lucario was very popular, and as such some players thought they could check Kyurem with their unevolved Lucario, the amount of Earth Power kills I got on Lukes with Hasty Kyube was phenomenal so I was really insistent on +spe kyurem. Now that Lucario is dead it still gets past Jolly Excadrill (which is common enough), Neutral netural base 100s like Zard, Fast Gliscors, and some other stuff.

I;m not sure about changing it back to neutral speed now but it had good reason in the past.
 

Worldtour

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I don't really get why outspeeding Excadrill is important for the Utility Check.

Not only can you not really do much damage to it, you literally cannot do ANYTHING other than hit it with Ice Beam, which is rarely even a 2HKO against 0/0. Meanwhile, an Excadrill with Leftovers or a Lum Berry has a 25% chance to OHKO it with Iron Head. That means against Scarf or Assault Vest variants Kyurem-B just flat out loses due to not being able to kill it fast enough, and against Adamant variants or variants with a Life Orb you are very likely to get OHKOed.

imo you are just giving up way too much bulk to outspeed a Pokemon you have absolutely no business dealing with. Sure, you can make it not use Rapid Spin if it is weak enough so you can keep Dragon Tailling, but that's it. I mean the nature you are forced to use to actually outspeed Excadrill ironically makes it more likely to OHKO Kyrurem-B... I'd personally go for some other Pokemon that Kyurem-B will actually be checking.

EDIT: To make it more iffy Jolly Excadrill is pretty much nonexistent compared to Adamant.

EDIT2: Okay but the analysis stil suggests Adamant almost solely and not Jolly.
 
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Srn

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To clear up the whole Jolly vs. Adamant on Excadrill thing:

| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 19.079% |
| Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 18.444% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 16.311% |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.691% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.183% |
| Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 3.916% |

From the usage stats.

Adamant is more common, but only by a slight margin, so it would be incorrect to say that Jolly excadrill is extremely rare or something like that.
 
To clear up the whole Jolly vs. Adamant on Excadrill thing:

| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 19.079% |
| Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 18.444% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 16.311% |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.691% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.183% |
| Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 3.916% |

From the usage stats.

Adamant is more common, but only by a slight margin, so it would be incorrect to say that Jolly excadrill is extremely rare or something like that.
I'd say 39% vs 27% is more than a slight margin, but thanks, those stats are helpful.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
I have some comments:

Substitute Attacker

Shouldn't a speed boosting nature (like Hasty) be AC'd? Outspeeding Jolly Excadrill has its perks . . . as well as outrunning TWave Timid DeoD, and Modest Landorus.

Specially Mixed

You neglect to mention LO KyuB's greatest partner: Mega Pinsir. KyuB lures in Heatran, Rotom-W -- while outright smashing through Skarmory, Landorus-T, and Gliscor -- quite flawlessly. They both share a Tyranitar weakness, but that's pretty easily remedied -- it's the SR weakness that you'd have to highlight.


... I'm not sure DTail KyuB is worth it anymore. For starters, one of the biggest things KyuB switches in on is Rotom-W -- and a burn pretty much makes DTail useless. DTail would be great if Defog didn't exist, since it's counters would not only be forced out but also eat hazards -- however, DTail is pitifully weak and ultimately isn't as effective without the hazard support. If you wanted a utility, I'm sure you could just use SubRoost Kyu for that -- it breaks stall and acts as a good utility all in one, especially thanks to Pressure. I used 252 HP DTail KyuB in BW2 OU, and it was much better since, if I could keep SR + 1 Spike in tact, Jirachi and Tyranitar would eat Dragon Tail and loads of entry hazard damage. I'm not sure it can be effectively utilized without SR AND Spike support, which is insanely hard to pull off with Defog, especially since DTail has negative priority, allowing spinners or defoggers to remove hazards easily.
 

alexwolf

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I would like the utility check set to be replaced with this:

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 60 Spd / 252 Atk / 196 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Ice Beam
- Roost

I don't see the point of Dragon Tail, so many Speed EVs, and max HP investment. You mention that Dragon Tail helps against Pokemon such as Manaphy and DD Mega Gyarados, but max Atk+ Fusion Bolt is a way better solution for those, OHKOing both after SR damage. Dragon Claw is your strongest move, and is great against Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Greninja, Mega Charizard X, opposing Kyu-B (you counter Sub variants), (Mega) Tyranitar, Chansey, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Mamoswine, and Mega Manectric, all important targets. Dragon Tail is both pointless with so much Speed investment and not needed as Kyu-B can beat the things it checks with sheer power anyway.

So much Speed is not needed, as Excadrill beats you anyway with Iron Head if it's offensive and is outsped anyway if it's defensive. What other Pokemon do you want to outspeed really? There is Dragonite and Mega Gyarados, true, which means that going with 263 Speed is a fine option too (outspeeds Jolly Bisharp too), but i prefer the extra bulk, though i really don't mind, both are really good spreads and better than the one you have. Other than that, 60 Speed gives you everything you really need, by outspeeding and hitting for good damage a very relevant threat, Adamant Bisharp, as well as +Speed Aegislash.

As for SpD > HP investment, it's simple really. The majority of the Pokemon that Kyurem-B checks are specially based, and you get way more special bulk by investing in SpD. Here are some calcs:
  • +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Kyurem-B: 237-279 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 290-342 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 200+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Kyurem-B: 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 200+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 160-190 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Kyurem-B: 146-173 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 177-211 (40.2 - 47.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If outspeeding Adamant Bisharp is not important, as you can't OHKO it and +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes after SR, you can go with max Atk+ / max SpD, so that you almost always survive two Ice Beams from Greninja after SR, survive way more often a Timid Fire Blast from Char Y after SR, and prolly a few more nifty things.

Finally, as for the nature, Adamant > Hasty, because you want to preserve your Defense to check Mega Gyarados better:
  • 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 136-161 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 152-179 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Taking less damage from priority users such as Talonflame, Bisharp, and Mega Mawile on 1 on 1 scenarios is great as well. Ice Beam is good enough even with a -SpA nature, and it doesn't miss any important OHKO/2HKO as far as i am concerned.

tll;dr the new spread gives way more power and makes Kyurem-B not easy at all to wall without dedicated defensive cores, and still checks the Pokemon it needs to, in fact it checks them even better than the old spread.


Here are the possible spreads and their advantages:

60 Spd / 252 Atk / 196 SDef with Adamant: Outspeeds Adamant Bisharp and +Speed Aegislash while still checking most of the stuff it is supposed to well
148 Spd / 252 Atk / 108 SDef with Adamant: Outspeeds Mega Gyarados and Dragonite, but has a bigger chance to get 2HKOed by Greninja and loses some special bulk in general.
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 SDef with Adamant: Almost always avoids the 2HKO from Greninja's Ice Beam, and handles some special attackers better
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
I would like the utility check set to be replaced with this:

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 60 Spd / 252 Atk / 196 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Ice Beam
- Roost

I don't see the point of Dragon Tail, so many Speed EVs, and max HP investment. You mention that Dragon Tail helps against Pokemon such as Manaphy and DD Mega Gyarados, but max Atk+ Fusion Bolt is a way better solution for those, OHKOing both after SR damage. Dragon Claw is your strongest move, and is great against Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Greninja, Mega Charizard X, opposing Kyu-B (you counter Sub variants), (Mega) Tyranitar, Chansey, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Mamoswine, and Mega Manectric, all important targets. Dragon Tail is both pointless with so much Speed investment and not needed as Kyu-B can beat the things it checks with sheer power anyway.

So much Speed is not needed, as Excadrill beats you anyway with Iron Head if it's offensive and is outsped anyway if it's defensive. What other Pokemon do you want to outspeed really? There is Dragonite and Mega Gyarados, true, which means that going with 263 Speed is a fine option too (outspeeds Jolly Bisharp too), but i prefer the extra bulk, though i really don't mind, both are really good spreads and better than the one you have. Other than that, 60 Speed gives you everything you really need, by outspeeding and hitting for good damage a very relevant threat, Adamant Bisharp, as well as +Speed Aegislash.

As for SpD > HP investment, it's simple really. The majority of the Pokemon that Kyurem-B checks are specially based, and you get way more special bulk by investing in SpD. Here are some calcs:
  • +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Kyurem-B: 237-279 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 290-342 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 200+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Kyurem-B: 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 200+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 160-190 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Kyurem-B: 146-173 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 177-211 (40.2 - 47.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If outspeeding Adamant Bisharp is not important, as you can't OHKO it and +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes after SR, you can go with max Atk+ / max SpD, so that you almost always survive two Ice Beams from Greninja after SR, survive way more often a Timid Fire Blast from Char Y after SR, and prolly a few more nifty things.

Finally, as for the nature, Adamant > Hasty, because you want to preserve your Defense to check Mega Gyarados better:
  • 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 136-161 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 152-179 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Taking less damage from priority users such as Talonflame, Bisharp, and Mega Mawile on 1 on 1 scenarios is great as well. Ice Beam is good enough even with a -SpA nature, and it doesn't miss any important OHKO/2HKO as far as i am concerned.

tll;dr the new spread gives way more power and makes Kyurem-B not easy at all to wall without dedicated defensive cores, and still checks the Pokemon it needs to, in fact it checks them even better than the old spread.


Here are the possible spreads and their advantages:

60 Spd / 252 Atk / 196 SDef with Adamant: Outspeeds Adamant Bisharp and +Speed Aegislash while still checking most of the stuff it is supposed to well
148 Spd / 252 Atk / 108 SDef with Adamant: Outspeeds Mega Gyarados and Dragonite, but has a bigger chance to get 2HKOed by Greninja and loses some special bulk in general.
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 SDef with Adamant: Almost always avoids the 2HKO from Greninja's Ice Beam, and handles some special attackers better
Looking at what this set is supposed to do, I'd definitely advocate for the 2nd spread you mentioned down at the bottom. With the popularity mega gyarados has been gaining I think that outspeeding Mega Gyarados (and dnite in general) is more important. Outspeeding Jolly Bisharp is very good too, because if you look at the usage stats Jolly is actually catching up to adamant in popularity, and you can not safely assume all bisharps are adamant anymore. Bisharp is in general a huge threat that you shouldn't lose to if you don't have to, I think it's worth the risk with ninja.

I'd say the last spread isn't really worth it, kyu-b always likes speed and stuff. The first two look good.
 

Jukain

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Yeah, I'm okay with changing the set with the second spread you have.

Also an FYI: I'm removing CB and adding Scarf after talking to some QC people.
 
It's good to hear that the Choice Band and current Utility sets are going to be dropped, but there's still a bit that needs to be fixed.

The Physically Based Mixed Attacker set needs to go.
The listed set is checked/countered by Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Excadrill, and even Heatran, all the while offering nothing over a Specially Based Mixed set.

The Specially Based Mixed set needs to slash Outrage in before Roost. Its biggest asset is its stall-breaking ability and you really lose that when you drop Outrage, because most good stall teams use Chansey.

And then there's its speed. There is little reason to use a +Speed nature now. Excadrill commonly run Adamant (especially with good players), you no longer catch Lucario going into Mega, speedy Landorus-T is rare - you get the point.

And it really strengthens its most spammable move: Ice beam.

A couple calcs: 252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
.
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Also, I'd mention Iron Head as an option over Outrage or Roost in AC or something, because it makes short work of Sylveon and Clefable running some SpD.
 
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Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Agreeing with TFL. iirc, Earth Power only does 88% to Rotom-W without a positive SpA nature, which is pretty huge. Still, positive speed nature KyuB gets the jump on Modest and Adamant Charizards, which is certainly worth noting. Still, the speed in not imperative. The boost is strength goes a long way.
I tried Physically Mixed KyuB. I really hated it, as it didn't really bother stall as much as I'd like. TFL, I will disagree with Outrage being slashed before Roost, though. The LO and hazard damage pile up in matches against stall, which make stall breaker so much harder without Roost to back it up. I do understand that Chansey is particularly fucking annoying to face. Once again, I'd mention M-Pinsir as LO KyuB's greatest ally as KyuB lures Rotom-W, and can beat things like Skarm and LandoT and Quagsire and Clefable that often prey as stall / balance cheks / counters to the M-Mon. Pinsir can, in turn, break plenty of KyuB's counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Conkeldurr being some really noticable oncs.
 
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Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
the sub set is pure ass, it can wall break at all without a life orb. I can see that its good against some offensive teams that are unprepared for it, but man, is it deserving of first set?
 
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Outside the Blobs, Sylveon and Clefable (without any prior damage) what does the Sub set not 2HKO?

I realize those are all fairly popular Mons but it's still a rather short list, I wouldn't go as far as to call it 'pure ass' perhaps it shouldn't be the first set though.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
MEga Scizor, and Ferrothorn are two huge issues for the set that fourth move or life orb can deal with.

If you're adamant about sub first Jukain that is fine, but otherwise, unless you plan to add scarf all I ask is for Outrage slash on special life orb attacker to 2HKO chansey. Do that and this is

QC APPROVED 3/3
 
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If Scarf Cube gets a set, what would it look like?

I came up with this:

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 144 Spd / 252 Atk / 112 SAtk
Lonely Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Outrage
- Iron Head

Enough speed to outspeed +1 Gyarados and max attack and the rest in SpA, some calcs vs things you're supposed to revenge kill as well as common walls.

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 272-322 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

112 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 302-356 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

112 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 260-308 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

112 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 272-324 (70.8 - 84.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

112 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Unfortunately without Earth Power you miss out on Heatran and rely on Outrage to get past Rotom-W, without HP Fire you are walled by Ferrothorn and (Mega-)Scizor but this set is primarily a revenge killer anyway and it still does well against a lot of walls.

Note: A max speed Naive spread leads you revenge kill +1 Adamant ZardX but you lose a lot of power and significantly lower your chances of OHKOing Keldeo, Mega Gyarados after SR and 2HKOing Clefable

Going up to 164 Speed EVs and neutral nature let's you outspeed the Bulky DD ZardX from the analysis while maintaining your offensive power for the most part.
 
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Jukain

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Putting Sub third and adding Scarf before CB as soon as I update this all, thanks for the check (physical Scarf w/ Outrage Fusion DClaw IB/IH)
 
why is the sub set max speed?? jolly gyarados doesnt exist. just drop it down to 280 for luc (you could probably get away with even lower since that things sorta rare, say 276 for adamant drill outside of sand or if that thing doesnt scare you even 264 for jolly bisharp) since +spe mamoswine doesnt exist.
 

Colonel M

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why is the sub set max speed?? jolly gyarados doesnt exist. just drop it down to 280 for luc (you could probably get away with even lower since that things sorta rare, say 276 for adamant drill outside of sand or if that thing doesnt scare you even 264 for jolly bisharp) since +spe mamoswine doesnt exist.
To add to this, you could also suggest going to 284 to outspeed Naughty Mega Garchomp.
 

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