Are we considering Latios and Latias the same pokemon during testing? What if we discover Latios is too powerful for OU, but Latias is just fine? Will we get rd of them both, or keep Latias in OU?
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Lati@s Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
I suggested to Aeolus that we have Doug implement it so that a player can use no more than one Lati on a team, and he agreed. I think this is the most fair way of getting usable results out of the test. We can also make it six weeks, better than four per pokemon but also recognizing that Latios and Latias are still two separate pokemon.
We don't really want people using Latios and Latias on the same team, because to whatever extent that you argue that they are extremely similar, and somehow therefore just one Suspect, you're equally arguing that you're breaking Species Clause, and if you argue that they are very different from one another, then you're willingly testing two Suspects at the same time, which is also a no-no since Suspects have to be tested in isolation.
We don't really want people using Latios and Latias on the same team, because to whatever extent that you argue that they are extremely similar, and somehow therefore just one Suspect, you're equally arguing that you're breaking Species Clause, and if you argue that they are very different from one another, then you're willingly testing two Suspects at the same time, which is also a no-no since Suspects have to be tested in isolation.
Why must all suspects be tested in isolation? What if a certain combination of X banned x allowed x banned x allowed of the suspects yields a more desired game?
That's what I'm wondering. Because one pokemon may not even seem suspect when certain other is banned to keep it in check.
It seems like it's going to be really complicated to get the 'perfect' ban list.
That's what I'm wondering. Because one pokemon may not even seem suspect when certain other is banned to keep it in check.
It seems like it's going to be really complicated to get the 'perfect' ban list.
does this mean species clause will later include latias/latios as the same pokemon (assuming they both pass)?
or, in that scenario, will they be tested again, allowing the possibility of one of each on teams?
things will be retested (hence lati@s retesting), but you have to test things independently, otherwise you're just testing a bunch of changes and can't find a specific cause for any changes.
yeah, i phrased it that way to explain why we're separating them—we're definitely going to allow simultaneous usage in stage 3. not making making that distinction between the two at this point would be a logistical problem, though
well yeah, i wholeheartedly agree with the seperation, i just didn't see the part about them being tested together at a later date (though i've been known to skim <_<;;), so that's why i asked.
i wish i could get shoddy to work so i could test this myself though ;/
i've been banging my head against a wall on another site trying to convice them for testing lati@s without soul dew in OU, so i'm very anxious to see how this all plays out.
A little late in responding to this...but you have to remember what's basically present in SDS' sig:
It's not exactly completely applicable, but it's got the same idea. I know Garchomp and Latios aren't exactly the best to compare, though.
But still, Latios does seem like it SHOULD be predictable. Like it was predictable that Garchomp would carry Swords Dance and Earthquake.
And in any case, I don't really fear it so much if Blissey can take a Modest Specs Draco Meteor (although being 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse might actually have me see some problems) and still have enough health to switch into Stealth Rock yet another time. I say this because I doubt Latios can OHKO a Tyranitar with Draco Meteor and -1 Special Attack.
I do see that it is unlikely that Latios would stay in on Blissey after using Draco Meteor once if it can't 2HKO, but I'm playing theorymon like basically everyone else.
Oh, and on that note, I don't see how it might be different from Skymin in getting all the hype of, "What a cheap trick," but its greatest impact comes from simply shuffling up the metagame. Registeel still seems like it could be a bitch to Latios [if 372 (Modest max SpA Skymin) * 180 (SE Earth Power on Registeel) = 66960 and 394 (Modest max SpA Latios) * 95 (Surf/Thunderbolt) = 37430, Registeel walls both of 'em]. Although I will admit Registeel would not enjoy a Choice item tricked onto it.
There really are too many hypothetical situations for most anything.
Well I feel this thread needs bumped (considering Skymin voting ever finishes!).
But this bump is not without purpose. I've been working on an offensively oriented Latias for the simple fact that I'm not good with stalls and walls and such, and the potential IS there.
First off, what can Latias come in and scare away? Or take little damage from. I'm thinking things like Vaporeon, but I'm open to suggestions. The gist of my calculations/EV placement comes from having one CM under its belt, and taking no damage is preferable as it needs as much HP as it can get when staring down T-Tar, Weavile, and the like.
Don't unjustly criticize this set or tell me what Latias should & shouldn't do. I'm aware that Latios is a better Special Attacker, but this is for surprise and a little extra durability.
Latias @ leftovers
Timid
~Calm Mind
~Dragon Pulse
~Surf
~Hidden Power (Fighting)
DO NOTE THAT EVS ARE STILL BEING TESTED AND WILL BE PROVIDED AFTER I REACH WHAT I CONSIDER THE BEST COMBINATION. I am running extensive calculations/combinations to reach a meaningful and effective spread. I am attempting to maximize survivability from the likes of Tyranitar, Weavile, Mamoswine, and the like with a combination of HP and Def EVs. I still need to check speed tiers to determine Speed EVs. The remainder of the EVs will be dumped into SpA. I cannot think of any special threats that will attempt to attack Latias, leaving the lack of SpD EVs. If you can think of one, LET ME KNOW. Generally Calm Mind will cover the special side though.
Ok, for the moveset: Calm Mind is a must and seems rather obvious. Dragon Pulse + Surf for the same reasons as Latios; coverage. HP Fighting may seem controversial, but I feel it is very important to this set. When T-Tar or Weavile switch in, fleeing is a risky option because of pursuit. I'm not seeing a whole lot that surf will actually hit (since Latias won't be locked, it has less use on the set than on a Specios set).
Calcs: These are done with the Latias above with 1 Calm Mind and 4 SpA EVs.
~HP Fighting vs. 252/4 neutral Tyranitar (in sandstorm): 54.4%-64.3%
~HP Fighting vs. 40/0 neutral Weavile: 129.2%-152.5%
~HP Fighting vs. 252/252 positive Empoleon: 31.7%-37.6%
~HP Fighting vs. 28/0 neutral Empoleon: 51.8%-61.4%
~HP Fighting vs. 172/0 neutral Magnezone: 55.5%-65.4%
~Surf vs. 124/68 neutral Mamoswine: 77.5%-91.3%
~Surf vs. 64/0 neutral Mamoswine: 89.1%-105% (OHKO w/ SR)
~Surf vs. 4/0 neutral Heatran: 65.6%-77.3%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 108/0 neutral Gengar: 69.7%-82.2%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 216/0 neutral Salamence: 98.7%-116.8% (196 or less HP investment will score the OHKO)
~Dragon Pulse vs. 252/0 neutral Flygon: 104.3%-123.6%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 248/216 positive Dragonite: 61.2%-72.2%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 104/0 neutral Heracross: 50.4%-59.6%
Now those calcs are with 4 SpA and 1 Calm Mind. Extra SpA (which could very well happen) or extra Calm Minds will devastate even more.
As you can see, it's important to EV to outrun 'Mence/Flygon, since they can devastate Latias with Outrage. If Mence gets a DD in before you can strike, you better have a counter on hand as it will outspeed you indefinitely.
Every steel neutral to fighting can shrug off every attack rather well (including Surf), namely Metagross and Scizor because of Pursuit, and if they can strike back physically, Latias is in trouble. Switching out may not help from the mentioned Steels because if they predict and Pursuit, prepare to feel it. Registeel is the exception to the weakness, laughing at HP Fighting due to its massive bulk and then either curses up or paralyzes you.
Spiritomb can shrug off assaults as well, but if dependant on Sucker Punch then Latias can set up before trying again; pursuit can do only moderate damage with adequate EV investment. Ninjask can actually pack quite a punch against her, and she isn't guaranteed a OHKO either (94% min).
Heracross is mentioned because it has Pursuit. If it uses pursuit and you switch, you fall. If it uses pursuit and you stay, you can KO it next turn. If it uses Megahorn and you stay, lights out. (The same can be said with Tyranitar and Crunch)
Of course, Latios can hit a lot harder (especially with Specs), but I've already explained the reasoning behind using Latias. She has the durability to stat up and take off.
I'll have the EV spread up ASAP but I'm pretty busy this week, so we will see what happens.
But this bump is not without purpose. I've been working on an offensively oriented Latias for the simple fact that I'm not good with stalls and walls and such, and the potential IS there.
First off, what can Latias come in and scare away? Or take little damage from. I'm thinking things like Vaporeon, but I'm open to suggestions. The gist of my calculations/EV placement comes from having one CM under its belt, and taking no damage is preferable as it needs as much HP as it can get when staring down T-Tar, Weavile, and the like.
Don't unjustly criticize this set or tell me what Latias should & shouldn't do. I'm aware that Latios is a better Special Attacker, but this is for surprise and a little extra durability.
Latias @ leftovers
Timid
~Calm Mind
~Dragon Pulse
~Surf
~Hidden Power (Fighting)
DO NOTE THAT EVS ARE STILL BEING TESTED AND WILL BE PROVIDED AFTER I REACH WHAT I CONSIDER THE BEST COMBINATION. I am running extensive calculations/combinations to reach a meaningful and effective spread. I am attempting to maximize survivability from the likes of Tyranitar, Weavile, Mamoswine, and the like with a combination of HP and Def EVs. I still need to check speed tiers to determine Speed EVs. The remainder of the EVs will be dumped into SpA. I cannot think of any special threats that will attempt to attack Latias, leaving the lack of SpD EVs. If you can think of one, LET ME KNOW. Generally Calm Mind will cover the special side though.
Ok, for the moveset: Calm Mind is a must and seems rather obvious. Dragon Pulse + Surf for the same reasons as Latios; coverage. HP Fighting may seem controversial, but I feel it is very important to this set. When T-Tar or Weavile switch in, fleeing is a risky option because of pursuit. I'm not seeing a whole lot that surf will actually hit (since Latias won't be locked, it has less use on the set than on a Specios set).
Calcs: These are done with the Latias above with 1 Calm Mind and 4 SpA EVs.
~HP Fighting vs. 252/4 neutral Tyranitar (in sandstorm): 54.4%-64.3%
~HP Fighting vs. 40/0 neutral Weavile: 129.2%-152.5%
~HP Fighting vs. 252/252 positive Empoleon: 31.7%-37.6%
~HP Fighting vs. 28/0 neutral Empoleon: 51.8%-61.4%
~HP Fighting vs. 172/0 neutral Magnezone: 55.5%-65.4%
~Surf vs. 124/68 neutral Mamoswine: 77.5%-91.3%
~Surf vs. 64/0 neutral Mamoswine: 89.1%-105% (OHKO w/ SR)
~Surf vs. 4/0 neutral Heatran: 65.6%-77.3%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 108/0 neutral Gengar: 69.7%-82.2%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 216/0 neutral Salamence: 98.7%-116.8% (196 or less HP investment will score the OHKO)
~Dragon Pulse vs. 252/0 neutral Flygon: 104.3%-123.6%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 248/216 positive Dragonite: 61.2%-72.2%
~Dragon Pulse vs. 104/0 neutral Heracross: 50.4%-59.6%
Now those calcs are with 4 SpA and 1 Calm Mind. Extra SpA (which could very well happen) or extra Calm Minds will devastate even more.
As you can see, it's important to EV to outrun 'Mence/Flygon, since they can devastate Latias with Outrage. If Mence gets a DD in before you can strike, you better have a counter on hand as it will outspeed you indefinitely.
Every steel neutral to fighting can shrug off every attack rather well (including Surf), namely Metagross and Scizor because of Pursuit, and if they can strike back physically, Latias is in trouble. Switching out may not help from the mentioned Steels because if they predict and Pursuit, prepare to feel it. Registeel is the exception to the weakness, laughing at HP Fighting due to its massive bulk and then either curses up or paralyzes you.
Spiritomb can shrug off assaults as well, but if dependant on Sucker Punch then Latias can set up before trying again; pursuit can do only moderate damage with adequate EV investment. Ninjask can actually pack quite a punch against her, and she isn't guaranteed a OHKO either (94% min).
Heracross is mentioned because it has Pursuit. If it uses pursuit and you switch, you fall. If it uses pursuit and you stay, you can KO it next turn. If it uses Megahorn and you stay, lights out. (The same can be said with Tyranitar and Crunch)
Of course, Latios can hit a lot harder (especially with Specs), but I've already explained the reasoning behind using Latias. She has the durability to stat up and take off.
I'll have the EV spread up ASAP but I'm pretty busy this week, so we will see what happens.
Veedrock, methinks that set looks good. Coupled with her fabulous SpDef, she's bulky and hard to take down. EV spread? I'd run some Speed and pump the HP. Depending on what my team needs I'd run enough to get past Max Speed base 100s, or maybe Infernape.
Latios with Specs looks to be huge.
Latios with Specs looks to be huge.
Latios with Specs will be freaking huge. Hell, it can 2HKO Metagross with Surf; so considering it tries to switch in, it'll die before getting anywhere.
Yeah, I need to get her defenses up to at least survive Ice Shard twice so she can KO mamoswine. She'll take blows here and there, but that's the only specific threat I'm seeing. And of course, gotta get her to outrun Mence and Flygon (the reason I chose Timid).
I feel I should defend my set a little more, at least why I made it. I run the Superachi set with HP Ground over U-Turn on pretty much all of my team.. Anyways, when that thing gets at least 1 CM, it dents my opponent. If I get 2 or 3, things really kick up. That's why I wanted to make an offensive Latias, because it's just a bulkier Jirachi with a typing difference (a worse one at that, but whatever). The potential for a dangerous threat is there, I've just got to get the right EVs.
The worst part about this suspect test is that you can't use both of them at the same time. That'd be hella sick if you could get different coverage on both of them (or used Latias as support instead).
i think the community knows lati@s isnt broken. theres been more discussion from SR and manaphy, and Lati are the next test. im so excited!
I would honestly say how Latias is an inferior Latios with this set due to the fact that she can't use Recover, Reflect, Substitute or Refresh. The reason I say that she's an inferor Latios is that Latias honestly lacks the sheer power that Latios would have (who also could go without Recover). Most of Latias's threat could still switch in on her and just either cripple her with Toxic or shut her down with Thunder Wave. Hell, even Will-o-Wisp could do some damage here.
Latias @ leftovers
Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Spe / 208 Def / 4 SpA (assuming that you wanted the maximum possible Defense and HP Latias can have with this set <_<)
~Calm Mind
~Dragon Pulse
~Surf
~Hidden Power (Fighting)
Again, Latias would be better off with Calm Mind/Surf/Dragon Pulse/(supporting move to herself or the team). I'm not seeing how Hidden Power Fighting keeps Tyranitar from raping her >_>. Weavile, yes is at bay; however, keep it noted that with about 12% or so of Latias's HP gone, CBWeavile could just Night Slash (or Ice Punch) Latias into her own doom... unless, you're willing to risk switching out.
Assumingly, Latias will have a Calm Mind up before these things switch in and is already attacking... right? I'm not seeing how that'll happen commonly in a battle with it.
Let's take a look at what some of these Pokemon can do back.
Tyranitar- Switching in on a Calm Mind isn't hard for it at all. Since with the EV spread I provided, CBTyranitar will OHKO with Crunch right after you only muster about 50%-ish of its damage away.
Weavile- With the spread I provided, CBWeavile can muster at the maximum of 100% with Night Slash, Ice Punch will OHKO around 41% of the time. With only a bit (9%) of Latias's HP gone, Weavile will nearly always OHKO with Ice Punch.
Magnezone- Will be outstalled by any other Latias.
Empoleon- Same deal as Magnezone.
Dragonite- The Defensively orriented ones usually carry Light Screen + Toxic or Thunder Wave + Heal Bell/Light Screen. Can't Dragonite just do something back like hit it with Thunder Wave and Roost off the damage while scouting for a turn of Paralysis, just setup a Light Screen or just Poison it? With that said, a Bulky DDNite won't be OHKO'd by a +1 Dragon Pulse while it just smacks Latias in the face with an Outrage.
Heracross- ScarfCross/CBCross/MopCross/BulkUpCross... all can OHKO (or in BulkUpCross's case, Bulk Up then OHKO) with Megahorn :[. Switching in isn't really hard at all.
Heatran- Is switching in on Latias because...?
Mamoswine- Curse variants (124/68 Adamant) running Avalanche can OHKO Latias without a boost under its belt. If you choose not to attack but, Calm Mind again, Mamoswine actually has a nice chance of finishing the job with Ice Shard. CB variants will always lose unless you're doing something other than Calm Mind on a switch or if Stealth Rock isn't up.
Flygon- Scarfed variants (who are the most common) have a nice chance of beating Latias with Outrage since it's an OHKO 58% of the time.
Salamence and Gengar are the only ones incapable of switching this set. Gengar can switch in if Latias is missing about 50% of its HP already while Salamence can only switch in if it's Scarfed with Outrage; however, those two events are highly uncommon and, well, don't apply very well here.
EDIT: Those EVs maximize Latias's Defense and HP while still having the ability to outspeed all base 100 Pokemon such as Jolly Salamence and Flygon. I added the 4 SpA since you mentioned that already.
Thanks for the input (despite saying Latios is better, which I asked not to be said), especially on mentioning some of those OHKO moves (like night slash).
That's not quite what I had in mind for the defense, but thank you for providing the speed EV needed to outrun them.
What I did have in mind was using CM on the switch, and then facing down whoever wanted some.
T-Tar: Crunch OHKOing is inevitable. But that's where you have to play games. If they aren't expecting HP Fighting, they could very well go for Pursuit, expecting a flee attempt. This is really situational, but I'm aiming to survive Pursuit without escaping (which it may already do, but I still have to prepare for other things). This set is still in it's trial stages, so I'll see where it goes.
Weavile: Didn't even think about Ice Punch or Night Slash. I considered Ice Shard and Pursuit. Thanks for bringing that up though. I'll have to consider them when trying to determine the rest of the EVs.
Heracross: Yeah, I know it'll take Latias out without fail. Again, I provided calcs for it in case you predict a pursuit and stay to fight.
Heatran: Lol, you never know. HP Ice is standard, somebody may try it.
Mamoswine: Thanks for mentioning Avalanche.
Flygon: I'm aware, but I used Calcs for it anyways.
I'm going to continue looking at my set tomorrow. If some type of support is needed (like Recover, wish, etc.) then I feel Surf is the weak link in the set to get replaced. HP Fighting can still hit Mamoswine and Heatran well and I don't see it being too much more use. Yes it has neutral coverage on steels (barring Heatran), but with Latios' sheer strength, its a fight that just isn't worth it.
That's not quite what I had in mind for the defense, but thank you for providing the speed EV needed to outrun them.
What I did have in mind was using CM on the switch, and then facing down whoever wanted some.
T-Tar: Crunch OHKOing is inevitable. But that's where you have to play games. If they aren't expecting HP Fighting, they could very well go for Pursuit, expecting a flee attempt. This is really situational, but I'm aiming to survive Pursuit without escaping (which it may already do, but I still have to prepare for other things). This set is still in it's trial stages, so I'll see where it goes.
Weavile: Didn't even think about Ice Punch or Night Slash. I considered Ice Shard and Pursuit. Thanks for bringing that up though. I'll have to consider them when trying to determine the rest of the EVs.
Heracross: Yeah, I know it'll take Latias out without fail. Again, I provided calcs for it in case you predict a pursuit and stay to fight.
Heatran: Lol, you never know. HP Ice is standard, somebody may try it.
Mamoswine: Thanks for mentioning Avalanche.
Flygon: I'm aware, but I used Calcs for it anyways.
I'm going to continue looking at my set tomorrow. If some type of support is needed (like Recover, wish, etc.) then I feel Surf is the weak link in the set to get replaced. HP Fighting can still hit Mamoswine and Heatran well and I don't see it being too much more use. Yes it has neutral coverage on steels (barring Heatran), but with Latios' sheer strength, its a fight that just isn't worth it.
Thanks Gen. Empoleon.
Anyhow; Band Max Jolly Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0/0 neutral Latias: 67.7%-80.3%
So Latias can survive the Ice Shard (considering minimal damage beforehand) and OHKO with Hidden Power Fighting.
I will probably end up testing the set in actual battles (hurry up with Skymin!) before I post EVs and deem it a viable and satisfactory set.
Why is Weavile using Ice Shard on Latias, anyway? :x
Unless you're planning to run max Speed and Weavile is Adamant, I see no point >.>.
Unless you're planning to run max Speed and Weavile is Adamant, I see no point >.>.
That's actually something I noticed with your last post. Like I said, I'm pretty much predicting that they'd predict an escape. If not, well Latias would need your EV spread to scrape survivability from Ice Punch.
Again, I'm going to test this personally and mess around with the EVs and learn what "counters" actually attempt to do. Of course it'll vary from player to player, but if even one is smart enough (and I'll be playing a lot people) to go straight offense, then I'll probably use your EV spread (considering the speed EVs are accurate). It's actually looking to be Latias' best bet as Calm Mind (and her impressive 130 base stat) will cover the special end.
EDIT: I'm getting 176 EVs are needed to outrun Max+ Base 100s and feel that is very important because it can make all the difference when staring down Mence/Flygon. I'll see how well I can impliment them in the spread.
I appreciate your effort Veedrock, but I'm pretty skeptical about the whole Calm Mind Latias thing with HP Fighting. I guess the question is: what makes it worth using over the Calm Mind / Dragon Pulse / Surf / HP Fire set from Latios? Latios is doing more damage to Tyranitar with Surf after a Calm Mind then Latias is, and both are screwed either way unless you kill it. I guess, your set is too much of a compromise since I think you will probably get the most mileage out of goin all defensive with Latias or all offensive with Latios. Your set seems like just a compromise.
Four people have not voted yet. The deadline is 9 PM tomorrow, 12/8, but the vote is very close, so the site staff needs time to decide on what to do in the case of a tie. I have half a team ready to go once testing starts too, so I am just as anxious as anyone else.
As for using Latias over Latios for a Calm Mind set, I think Latias should be using Recover over one of the attacking moves, probably Surf, whereas Latios should be using a three attack set if it does use Calm Mind. Latias' higher defenses would let it outstall things like bulky waters and Magnezone, while Latios should probably try to sweep things right away.
I understand where you're coming from completely. I've already gone over that point with myself and (I believe) I addressed it in my post. That 110 SpA is just too good to just give up on (drawing on this from experiences with Jirachi's 100 SpA + Calm Mind).
Don't worry, I'm not going to force this to work (precisely why I need to do hands on testing ASAP). If this is a flawed and useless piece of theorymon, I'll scrap it and go back the the drawing board. It pretty much is a compromise between the two (or trying to be), foresaking potential mileage and trying to make a hybrid to increase efficiency :P
I might actually participate this time, Lati twins are "legal" in Nintendo without their precious item, so that's already that already.
Looking from a competitive perspective however, being weak to Pursuit is freaking huge, and there are a lot of things out there that will hit them pretty hard despite their excellent defenses (their HP hurts them pretty bad).
The Specs Latios set will make Specsmence obsolete, imho.
Looking from a competitive perspective however, being weak to Pursuit is freaking huge, and there are a lot of things out there that will hit them pretty hard despite their excellent defenses (their HP hurts them pretty bad).
The Specs Latios set will make Specsmence obsolete, imho.
