Lati@s Discussion Thread

[Flash_gearz]

I think they should do well in OU. Almost all their predicted counters you said are ether at the top of the OU usage.(Tyranitar is 4th in November, Scizor is 1st, Heatran is 2nd, Metagross is 11th), or floating around BL(Mamoswine, Registeel, Mismaguis, Spiritomb etc.)

So when they come in, you can rather safely say they decentralized the meta slightly, bringing less used pokemon up, while keeping the already high used pokemon where they are.

Or course you can say that they are centralizing, because you are bringing them in just for Lati@s.

 

[Jibaku]

In DPPt Tyranitar gains a boost to SpDef with Sandstorm for a 354 SpDef without EVs. The fact that this Pokémon need EVs in SpDef for this case to understand something of Lati@s centralizing.

...no. Every Pokemon centralizes to an extent. And for the record these EVs weren't for Lati@s orginally...it was for Specs Aura Sphere from Mewtwo back in ubers, and then LO Focus Blast from Gengar. Your argument is pretty much invalid

Snorlax is similar to Blissey: can resist, but not for more due to Calm Mind.

And Crunch Lati@s back to death. Seriously you're overrating Calm Mind. It takes like 5 to 6 Calm Minds for Latios to 2HKO Blissey. No

Oh... and what is the number of Dark Pulse needs for beat CM Lati@s?

Umm if you're using Life Orb it won't take long at all. Probably 2 or 3, depending on other factors.

In any case I repeat: I didn't that these Lati@s will play alone.

In that case every Pokemon plays with another member and doesn't die. For instance Skarmbliss back in Adv and GSC.

 

[stvn]

Do Il Miltico really thinks Latios can beat Blissey/Snorlax with his set? (I mean, it doesn't even have any stab move/recover/safeguard).

and where the hell have you been, the offensive metagame is all about revenge (or "checks") and not countering anymore so your "We must return the Metagame to sick Revenge Kill" makes no sense.

obviously he has no idea of what he's talking about =\

 

[Il Mitico™]

The fact that Blissey and Heatran are two of the most commonly used Pokémon doesn't mean that must become "indispensable" due to Lati@s.
I want to play too Suspect Ladder for testing Lati@s Metagame, but I have not understood how to do. xD

Every Pokemon centralizes to an extent

But if born more set only for a Pokémon, this Pokémon centralizes out to an extent.

And for the record these EVs weren't for Lati@s orginally...it was for Specs Aura Sphere from Mewtwo back in ubers, and then LO Focus Blast from Gengar. Your argument is pretty much invalid

The fact that this EV spread was not used not mean that can't be.

And Crunch Lati@s back to death. Seriously you're overrating Calm Mind. It takes like 5 to 6 Calm Minds for Latios to 2HKO Blissey. No

Sorry, I had forgotten Crunch. xD

In that case every Pokemon plays with another member and doesn't die. For instance Skarmbliss back in Adv and GSC.

What I mean is that you can not think in this way to a Pokémon and then be defeated by the rest of Team because was less focused.

and where the hell have you been, the offensive metagame is all about revenge (or "checks") and not countering anymore so your "We must return the Metagame to sick Revenge Kill" makes no sense.

but where the hell have you been you... the actual Metagame is more different than the Metagame of past Summer.

 

[Tleilax]

In fact, I said this earlier:

Latias/Latios @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

NOTHING can beat this Pokémon.

Except for anything that sponges special hits. How many Calm Minds do you expect to get off? This metagame is all about offense, and checking opponents rather than outright countering. You're not going to get more than one or two Calm Minds in against a halfway decent player. You also lack recovery outside of Lefties (unless you use Life Orb), so you can't sit there and CM up all day. So anything that can take a special hit or two and hit back will take you down handily, especially with Life Orb. Heatran can wall this all day.

 

[Darkerkrai]

In fact, I said this earlier:

Latias/Latios @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

NOTHING can beat this Pokémon.

Mmkay, why not prove that? I mean, you must have SOME type of reasoning for using Ice Beam over Dragon Pulse >_>. It's always in constant fear of being statused or Dusknoir and Spritomb coming in to... how should I put this? Kill it.

 

[Colloquy]

Why is everyone so enamoured with HP Fire Magnezone? Ugh...

Also, SDS, Gengar isn't outclassed by Lati@ at all. You basically made the point. Gengar has a 70% chance of absolutely owning Tyranitar, which is enough to keep it at bay, and is already in Gengar's movepool. However, Lati@ have to dedicate a move to beating Tar.

Sorry that this is late, but Gengar has to dedicate a move to beating Tyranitar, too, in case you didn't know. I personally take off Focus Blast, because beating Tar isn't that important to me, and use HP Ice for revenge kills.

 

[stvn]

but where the hell have you been you... the actual Metagame is more different than the Metagame of past Summer.

I guess that proves YOU don't know the actual metagame ?_?

 

[pyrzi]

This topic seemingly got from discussion wether Lati@s is Uber or not into discussion
wether or not it will be top 10 or not.

 

[Veedrock]

In fact, I said this earlier:

Latias/Latios @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

NOTHING can beat this Pokémon.

I think you are in checkmate. You're clueless.

For damage calcs, I'll use Latias as she is bulkier.

Salamence@Yache Berry
Timid (NOTE, this is minus attack)
0 atk EVs/ 152 Spe/200 HP/152 SpD
~Outrage

Minus nature, 0 EVs: 109.5%-129.5%


This is a 100% counter to the non-LO sets. So not only can it switchin in with ease, it can also outrun and OHKO both (with a negative nature at that). And for the record, Salamence never carries a minus attack nature and Outrage, let alone 0 atk EVs.

Your set with Life Orb won't even do the trick without stealth rock, but this easily revenge kills (along with a million other pokemon, but I'm trying for counters).

How about a BL counter? This should be funny.

Charizard @ Choice Band
Jolly
252 attack/152 Speed/152 HP
~Outrage

Comes in even on stealth rock and will survive Ice Beam a majority of the time from Life Orb varients. Just enough speed to outrun, attack EVs will allow a OHK-freaking-O. 100% counter to non-LO, in which it's still about a 50% chance of survival from LO Latias.

I could go on (Yay Crunch users) but this is time consuming. Without SR, you're doomed. With SR, only LO stands a chance. Even so, you have to predict and use Ice Beam right off the bat. If you use Calm Mind, HP Fire, or Grass Knot, you're dead meat.

Let's move on from this. He's lost.


Ok, well, I've been looking forward to this test. RL's been getting me even more hyped. XD But now, like 3 days ago of all times, my internet is screwing up. I can't stay connected to the web for more than 20 minutes, so I can't get on Shoddy without the chance of disconnecting during a fight. This is frustrating beyond belief.

 

[gengod]

Whether a Pokemon breaks top 10 in usage or not has no standing on whether it should be declared an uber.

Comparing Wobbuffet to any other Pokemon currently considered Uber is a worthless cause.

I really don't think "uber" is just purely how good a tank/sweeper is, factors such as team roles should be taken into account, look at Wobbuffet.

Wobbuffet is hardly comparable to any Pokemon in this game let alone Lati@s. The reason it is Uber is entirely different to why any other Pokemon is currently considered Uber.

Allowing Lati@s into the game allows teams to overload on Dragon attacks and put even more stress upon steels in each team.

Um...so? Go take Salamence, or Dragonite or Flygon out of the game, if you don't want to see teams with Dragon attacks. Honestly thats pretty bad reason to want Lati@s to remain banned.

 

[SiDoesGood]

In fact, I said this earlier:

Latias/Latios @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

NOTHING can beat this Pokémon.

Heracross@choice scarf
EVs: 252HP/226Atk/32Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpAtk)
-Megahorn

Lati@s can't OHKO with HP (Fire) and megahorn always OHKOs barring hax. Magic speed number to outrun all modest Lati@s. This counter works against both LO and leftovers variants, and includes SR.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Heracross@choice scarf
EVs: 252HP/226Atk/32Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpAtk)
-Megahorn

Lati@s can't OHKO with HP (Fire) and megahorn always OHKOs barring hax. Magic speed number to outrun all modest Lati@s. This counter works against both LO and leftovers variants, and includes SR.

Timid 252 Draco Meteor does 66.21% - 77.75%, so it can only switch in once. Oh yeah, and Lati@s can just switch out.

 

[dr00]

Timid 252 Draco Meteor does 66.21% - 77.75%, so it can only switch in once. Oh yeah, and Lati@s can just switch out.

Heracross could pursuit as well if lati@s switches.

a 4 HP Latias will take 88.08% - 103.64% and 4 HP Latios will take 97.02% - 113.91%
did you use Life Orb in your calculation?


i suppose then it's all left up to prediction at any rate.



edit: i used 226 Atk Adamant Heracross for those calculations.

 

[Veedrock]

Timid 252 Draco Meteor does 66.21% - 77.75%, so it can only switch in once. Oh yeah, and Lati@s can just switch out.

1) That set did not have Draco Meteor.
2) Can just switch out? Great logic for determining a counter right there. Heatran is no longer a Scizor counter; he can just switch the hell out.

And as mentioned, Pursuit if you want to play that card. Well then Lati@s will just stay in. And get nailed by Megahorn. But of course it can just switch from Megahorn, but what's to say they won't pursuit. Thus the circle ensues.

EDIT: This came off a lot meaner than I meant for it to. I'm tired. I should turn in for the night ~_~

 

[diamondfan1910]

Heatran counters LOrbtios/tias.

Heatran@Choice Specs
Flash Fire
Timid/Modest Nature
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Speed
~Dragon Pulse

This counters it. Very nicely. With Modest there's a good chance he'll OHKO. And the most powerful weapon against Heatran, Modest Latios's Life Orb 6 Calm Minded Grass Knot, does 64% max. Since when are they going to get 6 Calm Minds anyway?

 

[Jumpman16]

hey can "we" all stop posting ridiculous pokemon beats pokemon with move sets, lati@s has counters that dont have just one move in their set, it's pretty obvious il matico doesnt know what he's talking about and it will be proven when the suspect ladder is back up

 

[Il Mitico™]

Ok, I try this set in Suspect Ladder when I can. Is a my theory, don't think that I already have the certainty that Lati@s is Uber also without Soul Dew, if they will be not centralizing... well-being, we probably have a Metagame more strong in offensive and defense.

I guess that proves YOU don't know the actual metagame ?_?

Really? funny how even a member of community that has the most played server in Shoddy Battle was noticed...
In DPPt there are less sure counters, and predict is more complicate, is true and is well in my opinion, but now there are more Zapdos, Swampert, Suicune, Jirachi, Togekiss, Celebi, Blissey, Rotom-h and many others Staller and Bulky Pokémon in every Team... this Summer was rare found a Team with a defensive Pokémon. Another example is the first position in ladder: Scizor is powerful, but is stopped by Skarmory, Gyarados, Zapdos, Rotom-h, Heatran (taking care to Superpower in predict), Magnezone (same thing of Heatran), ecc... Garchomp was so?

 

[Darkerkrai]

In DPPt there are less sure counters, and predict is more complicate, is true and is well in my opinion, but now there are more Zapdos, Swampert, Suicune, Jirachi, Togekiss, Celebi, Blissey, Rotom-h and many others Staller and Bulky Pokémon in every Team...

So, your point is that every Pokemon that managed to grab a usable move and gain a new position in the dppt metagame is causing everyone to "over"centralize by using those said Pokemon? If that's the case then, we should test Scizor and Lucario since those two managed to get two of the best offensive options in platinum.

Scizor is powerful, but is stopped by Skarmory, Gyarados, Zapdos, Rotom-h, Heatran (taking care to Superpower in predict), Magnezone (same thing of Heatran), ecc... Garchomp was so?

Latias is very defensive but falls to Pursuit users, Blissey, Heatran, Lucario, Celebi, Scizor, Heracross and oh, here's a funny one, Umbreon. Latios is very offensive but is stopped by Pursuit users (*gasp* maybe they won't use Pursuit, but, OHKO it with a mroe powerful Dark move :o), Blissey, Heatran, Scizor (if you don't have HP Fire), Heracross and oh, here's a funnier one, Umbreon.

Your point is...?

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

blah blah blah centralization blah blah blah overpowered (yet he still has counters) blah blah blah.

i dont see why smogon didnt have a definition of uber its so easy imo

overpowered in their own way either offensively like rayquaza or defensively like lugia, support like dxs and like wobbufet (whatever hes uber for lol) and OVERcentralization not:

"OMFG I HAVE TO CHANGE ONE MOVESLOT TO COUNTER!!!!! OVERCENTRALIZING!!!!"

LATIOS AINT OVERPOWERED! lol

i just hope the voters arent stupid and say hes too powerful because he could sweep whole teams late game. or they think hes too powerful because someone uses dugtrio + magnezone combo and they destroy the opposing team.

 

[Darkerkrai]

blah blah blah centralization blah blah blah overpowered (yet he still has counters) blah blah blah.

i dont see why smogon didnt have a definition of uber its so easy imo

overpowered in their own way either offensively like rayquaza or defensively like lugia, support like dxs and like wobbufet (whatever hes uber for lol) and OVERcentralization not:

"OMFG I HAVE TO CHANGE ONE MOVESLOT TO COUNTER!!!!! OVERCENTRALIZING!!!!"

LATIOS AINT OVERPOWERED! lol

i just hope the voters arent stupid and say hes too powerful because he could sweep whole teams late game. or they think hes too powerful because someone uses dugtrio + magnezone combo and they destroy the opposing team.

Wait...what? The last paragraph I partially understand, but... the rest is... um, care to translate that into english?

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

Wait...what? The last paragraph I partially understand, but... the rest is... um, care to translate that into english?

some people (especially in earlier votes) would say x is powerful but they fail to realize that theyre powerful when their counters and checks are gone.

like saying salamence is uber for being able to destroy entire teams when the idiot saying that doesnt realize that hes powerful because magnezone went and destroyed the steels able to counter him or something like that.

if u dont understand that im sorry. i dont care for writing good in anything that isnt a test, this is just the internet.

 

[chaos 9]

I think that this most people in this community have not read up enough on the goals of smogon. IIRC one of them is to have a balenced metagame with as few bans as possible. That means that unless somthing is completely and utterly game breaking that you have to use it or have 3,4, or even 5 counters to it to keep from being swept/disabled/walled/whatever, it should not be banned. Now I agree that is over simplifying things, but this "overcentralization" has no meaning in my book, because if it is so powerful, why not whore it and get your ranking up to god high levels to prove it's so broken?

 

[Veedrock]

I think that this most people in this community have not read up enough on the goals of smogon. IIRC one of them is to have a balenced metagame with as few bans as possible. That means that unless somthing is completely and utterly game breaking that you have to use it or have 3,4, or even 5 counters to it to keep from being swept/disabled/walled/whatever, it should not be banned. Now I agree that is over simplifying things, but this "overcentralization" has no meaning in my book, because if it is so powerful, why not whore it and get your ranking up to god high levels to prove it's so broken?

You read that one topic, didn't you? (was it by SDS? I don't remember)

Anyways, if you're talking about Garchomp, this has been discussed to no end and this is not the topic to discuss it in.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48504

This is the thread you're talking about, right?

Anyway, I think that people are blowing Lati@s way out of proportion. People's opinion is shaded by the fact that it's effective in Ubers, but that has nothing to do with the fact that even in Ubers, all of its counters are OU. And if it gets so out-of-hand that ridiculous Dragonite/Salamence/Latios teams are just raping the metagame, I don't think that says anything about Latios, but more about the Dragon type in general, and that if anything Salamence is more to blame than Lati@s and is equally viable to be tested.