are you just trolling now or did you miss some of what i said?
and yes, i used modest max SPAtk Latios for those calculations.
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Lati@s Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
are you just trolling now or did you miss some of what i said?
and yes, i used modest max SPAtk Latios for those calculations.
dont be ridiculous, the #1 pokemon in the game alone will always ensure that 4HP/0Def Latios won't be rampaging through teams without even changing its most common set, because even with standard LO, BP does 65-76%
and +1 LO GK from 394SpA will OHKO even 404HP(/236SpD) Tyranitar over half the time, i dont know where this 3HKO talk is coming from lol
that was me. though i just did again to be sure and i guess i did it wrong the first time (i don't know how, since all i changed was the HP EVs but anyways).
+1/modest/252 Latios with Life Orb does 93.07% - 109.65% to 252 HP Tyranitar
All Pokemon are centralizing to a degree. And with good prediction, quite a few of the top OU Pokemon can beat their counters. Latios isn't special in that regard.
I believe that Weavile has been falling in usage over the past few months simply because it is a glass cannon that can't get around some of it's counters. But other Pokemon like Salamence, Infernape, Heatran, Gyarados, Lucario, Metagross, etc will usually be able to get around their counters with proper prediction and the right moveslot. Again, in that regard Latios is no different from already top OU Pokemon.
It'll be a strong Pokemon that you may have to adjust your team for, but just because you have to adjust your team doesn't mean it overcentralizing, just that there's a new force in the metagame and it needs to readjust itself around it.
If Latios and Latias are centralizing or not will be seen by Pokémon usated for stop them: if these Pokémon are only Pokémon like Scizor and Metagross with Bullet Punch, hence with Rotom-h & Co. and Lati@s in the opponent Team, then will be centralizing. Same thing if they will over-complicate predictions and/or forcing to use a particular sets of Pokémon only profits for stop them. Consider well...
i really, really doubt it, and i dont even think it's theorymon to say that lati@s aren't going to be sweeping very easily because Scizor's Bullet Punch and Mamoswine's Ice Shard were already viable options (Mamoswine does 86-102% with CB IS), though i wouldn't be surprised be people employ a light clay reflect strat to deal with this, i actually guarantee it lol (even though this is where it starts getting really "theorymon")
As I say before, if Pseudo Passing is one of a multitude of methods for stop Lati@s... it's ok (t'okt'sokt'sokt'sokt'sok), but if is a forced method, they will be centralizing.
Again, Latios is the only one that scares anything but a win out of me. For one, I can see the standard team build with it being-
Double Screen Lead
Latios
Swampert/Lucario (or something to kill its threats off with)
Then, that leaves two slots for the team. As you can see, Latios is ready to go with Grass Knot/HP Fire/Dragon Pulse/Calm Mind. Anything can be used from a NP Passer to an anti Spinner/Brick Break(er?) to another Pokemon who checks off its threats. Now, I completly understand how any team running Double Screens and a way to kill off a threat can make a lot of things -AgiliGross and DDTar come to mind, here-, well, unbeatable; however, most of those Pokemon can be directly dealt with without any trouble at all. AgiliGross for example falls victim to Pokemon such as LO/CBSalamence (lacking Ice Punch, of course), MixDragonite, Shed Shell Skarmory, Rhyperior, Thunder Wave users like Jirachi, Cresselia and Blissey, all of which aren't OHKO'd by any of his attacks. Latios's only "checks" would be Blissey, a Zapdos investing in Special Defense running Thunder Wave and Metagross, both of which won't take much to deal with -referring back to Lucario who could get up a Swords Dance and OHKO each of them with Close Combat/Ice Punch, hell, even Swampert could help pull that off-, then, Latios has the freedom to just go crazy on the opposing team. Dusknoir, Spirtomb and ScarfTran are the only threats that stand a viable chance against that set >.>. I myself prefer Surf/Dragon Pulse/Calm Mind/Shadow Ball on Latios.
On the flip side, Latias would have a good, but, not easy chance if pulling that set off, mainly because she would lack the pure offensive power to stop most of her threats like Weavile, Celebi, Zapdos (Defensive, not Special Defense variants) and Tyranitar.
Double Screen Lead
Latios
Swampert/Lucario (or something to kill its threats off with)
Then, that leaves two slots for the team. As you can see, Latios is ready to go with Grass Knot/HP Fire/Dragon Pulse/Calm Mind. Anything can be used from a NP Passer to an anti Spinner/Brick Break(er?) to another Pokemon who checks off its threats. Now, I completly understand how any team running Double Screens and a way to kill off a threat can make a lot of things -AgiliGross and DDTar come to mind, here-, well, unbeatable; however, most of those Pokemon can be directly dealt with without any trouble at all. AgiliGross for example falls victim to Pokemon such as LO/CBSalamence (lacking Ice Punch, of course), MixDragonite, Shed Shell Skarmory, Rhyperior, Thunder Wave users like Jirachi, Cresselia and Blissey, all of which aren't OHKO'd by any of his attacks. Latios's only "checks" would be Blissey, a Zapdos investing in Special Defense running Thunder Wave and Metagross, both of which won't take much to deal with -referring back to Lucario who could get up a Swords Dance and OHKO each of them with Close Combat/Ice Punch, hell, even Swampert could help pull that off-, then, Latios has the freedom to just go crazy on the opposing team. Dusknoir, Spirtomb and ScarfTran are the only threats that stand a viable chance against that set >.>. I myself prefer Surf/Dragon Pulse/Calm Mind/Shadow Ball on Latios.
On the flip side, Latias would have a good, but, not easy chance if pulling that set off, mainly because she would lack the pure offensive power to stop most of her threats like Weavile, Celebi, Zapdos (Defensive, not Special Defense variants) and Tyranitar.
Ugh.....To put it very bluntly it is impossible for Lati@s to sweep entire teams unless your team is complete and utter rubbish. Just take a look at the top pokemon in the game.
Do you really expect Lati@s to flourish in a game with so many things that can hamper it? Lati@s is good but it is not this overpowered monster that some people in this thread seem to think it is. I doubt it will even break top 10.
Do you really expect Lati@s to flourish in a game with so many things that can hamper it? Lati@s is good but it is not this overpowered monster that some people in this thread seem to think it is. I doubt it will even break top 10.
he can make number 10. he beats some pokes there but he definitely cant be number 1 with scizor, heatran (for weakened latis) and Tar walking all over them
I'd probably run a Scarfed HP Fire Magnezone on any team using Latios, given that ScarfZone can guarantee that most of Lati@s' notable counters are trapped and killed. Also, Specs Surf pretty much destroys most of the things on that list so far, with the exception of Blissey (but what special attacker doesn't get shut down by Blissey), Gyarados (Which can't Pursuit Lati@s, and Salamence (Which is unlikely to come in fearing a Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse), meaning that a Specs set is probably the most effective way for Latias to put the hurt on things.
I can certainly see where you're going with this, but I have to say that Latios usage will probably rise and Gengar usage will fall for the most part. With the nerf to Hypnosis, Gengar has seen less and less use, and Latios has the same 130/110 SpA/Spe, but with better stats all around on the other side, better type coverage, and not needing to depend on a 70% accuracy move for type coverage against top threats like Tyranitar.
I can certainly see where you're going with this, but I have to say that Latios usage will probably rise and Gengar usage will fall for the most part. With the nerf to Hypnosis, Gengar has seen less and less use, and Latios has the same 130/110 SpA/Spe, but with better stats all around on the other side, better type coverage, and not needing to depend on a 70% accuracy move for type coverage against top threats like Tyranitar.
still he can be a check. considering trick is popular he can revenge kill him and trick a scarf on something so gengar pretty much rapes a lati team, destroying lati and a counter
Why is everyone so enamoured with HP Fire Magnezone? Ugh...
Also, SDS, Gengar isn't outclassed by Lati@ at all. You basically made the point. Gengar has a 70% chance of absolutely owning Tyranitar, which is enough to keep it at bay, and is already in Gengar's movepool. However, Lati@ have to dedicate a move to beating Tar.
Also, SDS, Gengar isn't outclassed by Lati@ at all. You basically made the point. Gengar has a 70% chance of absolutely owning Tyranitar, which is enough to keep it at bay, and is already in Gengar's movepool. However, Lati@ have to dedicate a move to beating Tar.
Dedicating a move to that purpose isn't such a bad idea actually. Dragon+Fighting is almost as good as Dragon+water. I was playing a match with my Latias I posted awhile ago, and, well, I'll let the log do the rest.
This is the very second turn of the match. I'm "New Guy"
New Guy switched in Latias (lvl 100 Latias ?).
Pointed stones dug into Latias.
Latias lost 12% of its health.
Panda-LatiTest switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
The sandstorm rages.
As you can see, I got messed up rather early. 2nd turn of the whole match and I switch in as he brings in my worst nightmare on the same turn.
---
New Guy: That wasn't good
Panda-LatiTest: yaaay you switched into the ttar bos made to kill lati@s >_>
Latias used Calm Mind.
Latias's special attack was raised.
Latias's special defence was raised.
Tyranitar used Pursuit.
It's super effective!
Latias lost 71% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Saw that coming a mile away. He figured I'd want to save Latias and flee. So I CM and get ready to go down fighting.
Abmaru: ..
Latias used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 67% of its health.
Tyranitar used Pursuit.
It's super effective!
Latias lost 66% of its health.
New Guy's Latias fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
New Guy: I don't go down without a fight
Panda-LatiTest: sounds hot
Abmaru: lmao
New Guy: ;)
Point is, if I had managed to NOT to switch in the same turn he did (lucky bastard), I could have killed T-Tar and been open to sweep. Clearly this isn't a great example defending my standpoint, but it's all I've got so far (my internet is screwed up right now).
Hell, I would've made it a warstory if he didn't try Zapdos v. (my) T-Tar.
EDIT: His T-Tar was "specially designed" to take out Lati@s (choice band and everything). Yet my Latias fought it rather well for a head to head matchup.
With the adequate EVs Tyranitar can survive a Specs Surf as can Scizor and other direct counters such as Bronzong and Metagross which i didn't even bother to list as they are lower than # 10 which is more than enough things if you add them to the other Pokemon you have already mentioned.
Also I disagree about the Specs set. It is good yes but it isn't the best set for Lati@s in OU especially with so much things that can revenge kill it.
Gengar isn't dropping because of Hypnosis really. It's dropping because everyone is finally realizing that Scizor stops Gengar with minimal effort and with a Scizor on just about every team its not surprising that Gengar has dropped drastically. Latias shares the same problem with Scizor and quite a few more Pokemon as well, so in the end I still don't really see it breaking top 10.
Whether a Pokemon breaks top 10 in usage or not has no standing on whether it should be declared an uber.
I really don't think "uber" is just purely how good a tank/sweeper is, factors such as team roles should be taken into account, look at Wobbuffet. Allowing Lati@s into the game allows teams to overload on Dragon attacks and put even more stress upon steels in each team.
Really? Damage calculator shows 252 HP 252 SpDef Careful Tyranitar taking 44.6-52.5% damage on average from LO Latios Grass Knot. That's a 75% 2hko right there with Stealth Rock down against the most specially defensive Tyranitar available.
I really don't think "uber" is just purely how good a tank/sweeper is, factors such as team roles should be taken into account, look at Wobbuffet. Allowing Lati@s into the game allows teams to overload on Dragon attacks and put even more stress upon steels in each team.
Lati@s can carry HP Fire for steels so if it's at like 60%+ it doesn't need to worry about Scizor
Maybe then Lati@s has done its job as a team supporter by luring out Heatran to remove it for other Pokemon like Scizor to sweep.
Nobody is saying that Lati@s is a safe Salamence switch... remember that Lati@s has more base speed. And some numbers: Salamence | Item | Choice Scarf | 11.4 , I wouldn't call that very high
Really? Damage calculator shows 252 HP 252 SpDef Careful Tyranitar taking 44.6-52.5% damage on average from LO Latios Grass Knot. That's a 75% 2hko right there with Stealth Rock down against the most specially defensive Tyranitar available.
Zapdos is a fairly bad counter to Lati@s, I'll agree on that one.
Blissey cannot touch Lati@s at all without using Thunder Wave on its moveset, and CM sets have so little use in this metagame that it's not even listed on the statistics.
You're right, Lati@s would not make a good counter to Gyarados. I think you're forgetting that Gyarados isn't a good counter to Lati@s either, Ice Fang doesn't come close to OHKO when unboosted.
Steel killer Magnezone is Lati@s' best friend... :D. Espeed is a neutral move that does 44.5-52.5% to Latios when unboosted (using Adamant max attack Lucario @ LO and 0/0 Latios), while the same Latios using LO and Modest 252 will do 92.5%-109% to Lucario with HP Fire, OHKOing slightly over half the time, and even non LO variants of Lati@s will be able to KO Lucario after switching in if it took a resisted hit on the switch in.
Once again, Infernape's U-Turn usage is completely not present in the usage statistics. Lati@s is one of the best counters for Infernape in fact, resisting both main STABs and all its standard moves except HP Ice which can be shrugged off with good SDef base stats, and outspeeding Infernape.
What is this myriad of ways you speak of? Using a Gengar to beat Lati@s leaves it up to a speed tie, Scarf Gengar can be dealt with in "a myriad of ways" named Pursuit
If something like this were to actually happen, I wouldn't be looking at whether or not to ban Lati@s; I'd be asking people what they think about Salamence, and probably be pushing for that to be a Suspect too. I'd certainly rather compare a "Latiless metagame" to a "Menceless" one, as opposed to just banning Lati@s outright based on the fact that "well it became a Suspect first so 'tough luck,'" because honestly, if we're only talking usage stats here, I'm going to be pretty leery of that top 3 dragon running around blaming our metagame problems on a, say, top 15 one, even if we did decide half a decade ago, in a different game, that the top 15 dragon was "uber."imperfectluck said:
obviously this is all assuming that we ever have this sort of problem in the first place (which I'm honestly a bit skeptical about), and also that nothing weird happens due to the fact that we're pretty much testing both Latis at a time (nothing specific in mind, just the idea of "something" happening wouldn't surprise me in the least).
In fact, I said this earlier:
Latias/Latios @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]
NOTHING can beat this Pokémon.
Latias/Latios @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]
NOTHING can beat this Pokémon.
Not when said Lati@s is using HP Fire, which you mentioned as an important move in several other situations. Just thought I'd mention that as it has important consequences for Pokemon that can be beaten by themselves and/or others that share their speed.
Heatran is one Pokémon, but there are 493 Pokémon... Blissey can't beat this set if it isn't a CalmBliss, in any case, there are two Pokémon on 493.
CB Scizor and CB Mamoswine can't do OHKO on this set with Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, but this set can do OHKO on them. I didn't say that alongside to this Pokémon there will be a Wisher and a Cleric...
Eh? Aside from the aforemention Heatran and Blissey
1) Special Defensive TTar: Don't doubt that this may show up during a Lati@s metagame as a universal counter. Sandstream hurts as well
2) Snorlax: Pretty sure CMed LO Grass Knot doesn't 2HKO but I could be wrong
3) Several forms of Cresselia/Empoleon I suppose
4) It can still be revenge killed. By around 65% they die to CB Bullet Punch from Scizor
5) Houndoom (yeah it resists everything and Dark Pulse will quickly wear them down).
Anyways it's definitely NOT unbeatable.
We'll see if Lati@s like being paralyzed/toxiced and then Tossed to death.
doesn't that make a bunch of others near invincible as well?
...to which I have already answered
In DPPt Tyranitar gains a boost to SpDef with Sandstorm for a 354 SpDef without EVs. The fact that this Pokémon need EVs in SpDef for this case to understand something of Lati@s centralizing.
Snorlax is similar to Blissey: can resist, but not for more due to Calm Mind.
Mmm... it's ok if is a CM Cresselia and a physical Empoleon.
We must return the Metagame to sick Revenge Kill Team? And CB Scizor can't do OHKO on Lati@s, unlike them.
In any case I repeat: I didn't that these Lati@s will play alone.
Oh... and what is the number of Dark Pulse needs for beat CM Lati@s?
In any case I repeat: I didn't that these Lati@s will play alone.
First of all you called it "unbeatable" so what exactly did you expect lol
Secondly, Heatran and Blissey are two of the most commonly used pokemon in OU right now (no seriously, why mention the total number of usable pokemon when the vast majority aren't even viable in any metagame, much less OU). The chances of seeing at least one of them on an opponent's team is extremely high already, so even if you were the only person allowed to use Lati@s for a day and just showed up and started laddering, people would probably be able to handle you.