Lati@s Discussion Thread

[Veedrock]

Meh, it'll be fun to have some new pokes to play with in OU.

They do seem a little overpowered thou, mainly due to Good defenses, a good ability, as well as recover.

Erm, I presume you're talking about Latias. Even so, it's typing is more harmful than not (psychic isn't doing much for it at all) and physical attacks are going to hurt like hell. I wouldn't Latias won't be much harder to take down than Zapdos if she doesn't have screens. Suicune could take hits better. Again, her typing is a bummer. Ninjask can kick her ass for gods sake! I'm not saying she's not a great Pokemon, she just has too many weak points for me to deem her "too powerful."

But I digress, I'm more interested in her power. 110 is NOT (do note the emphasis) bad, really. Especially with Calm Mind. 130 is freaking good, but I don't think it deserves overshadowing Latias' power entirely. Some buff with some speed and calm mind (much like my set-in-progress) and you're golden.

 

[Diana]

110 is quite good, especially when you take into account those defenses and Calm Mind, like was already said.

I know both will have quite common weaknesses but can still take a hit and dish out incredible damage, and along with good Speed I think it'll be too good for OU. I'll surely look forward to the test to see which way it'll go.

 

[Darkerkrai]

110 is quite good, especially when you take into account those defenses and Calm Mind, like was already said.

I know both will have quite common weaknesses but can still take a hit and dish out incredible damage, and along with good Speed I think it'll be too good for OU. I'll surely look forward to the test to see which way it'll go.

It's exactly what the OU metagame needs :s. The only threat Latias poses is towards Gyarados imo. I honestly see CBSalamence, DDKingdra, Hitmontop, Tyranitar, Weavile, Blissey, Scizor, Mamoswine, Bronzong, Jirachi. Toxic users, CBFlygon... -well, a lot of Physical hitters who can OHKO Latias off the bat or, KO after a Reflect is up- gaining more usage because she's running around in OU. Even with Calm MIind, it's not impossible to stop nor is it overpowered unless your team is a full Special Attacking offense :s.

Latios, I'm very skeptical about since most things in the metagame fear switching in on him and the fact that he can potentially mess his "counters" up.

 

[Veedrock]

110 is quite good, especially when you take into account those defenses and Calm Mind, like was already said.

I know both will have quite common weaknesses but can still take a hit and dish out incredible damage, and along with good Speed I think it'll be too good for OU. I'll surely look forward to the test to see which way it'll go.

I stand firm that if Jirachi can be OU, Latias has a decent shot at OU.

It's exactly what the OU metagame needs :s. The only threat Latias poses is towards Gyarados imo. I honestly see CBSalamence, DDKingdra, Hitmontop, Tyranitar, Weavile, Blissey, Scizor, Mamoswine, Bronzong, Jirachi. Toxic users, CBFlygon... -well, a lot of Physical hitters who can OHKO Latias off the bat or, KO after a Reflect is up- gaining more usage because she's running around in OU. Even with Calm MIind, it's not impossible to stop nor is it overpowered unless your team is a full Special Attacking offense :s.

Latios, I'm very skeptical about since most things in the metagame fear switching in on him and the fact that he can potentially mess his "counters" up.

Why is Latios more scary than Latias? Grr. I'm going to have to fix that.

Anyways, if you look on page 8 (standard settings if they can be changed) I have posted a set that is set to take out many of the forementioned "counters" while surviving various attacks (Crunch from T-Tar and Ice Punch Weavile are exceptions).

I'm glad you mentioned Kingdra, I didn't even think about doing calcs for it on my post, but it's most defensive set takes 71% minimum. So unless it's running extreme bulk (with a plus nature), it will be OHKO'd by Dragon Pulse.

Hitmontop?

Blissey is still a fat skank, but oh well. Not many special attackers can crack that egg. Can't do much to Scizor either, but that's rather expected. Anything short of fire is going to have issues with it.

 

[Diana]

I agree with Latias being more dangerous, Veedrock. The higher defenses let it Calm Mind easier and it has that high Special Attack still to run off of, though it's not quite to Latios levels.

And I really think Latias has more well-placed stats and a nicer movepool, and I still think it'll be too much for OU... But come to think of it all the Ice, Dragon, and Dark moves running around aren't helping. I'm really glad to get this tested soon though.

 

[bullfrogegg8]

The thing that bothers me is that yache berry was the reason that garchomp got banned, pretty much (I don't want to start a giant argument). I think banning items on stuff would get far too complex. Anyway I am excited testing it.

 

[Birdy [old]]

I agree with Latias being more dangerous, Veedrock. The higher defenses let it Calm Mind easier and it has that high Special Attack still to run off of, though it's not quite to Latios levels.

And I really think Latias has more well-placed stats and a nicer movepool, and I still think it'll be too much for OU... But come to think of it all the Ice, Dragon, and Dark moves running around aren't helping. I'm really glad to get this tested soon though.

I agree that Latias is better than Latios too. Better defenses means it's alot easier to bring out. Plus, both of them can wall most Heatrans and Zapdos, so that's another plus.

I view Latias as another Celebi/Jirachi - they are good pokemon, but are kept in check by moves that are in nearly every single team.

 

[RaikouLover]

And I'm going to disagree with that. Latias isn't "more dangerous" than Latios by any stretch of the imagination. The reason why Latios is more offensively threatening is the ability to do immediate damage. Latios can beat Tyranitar, Scizor, and many of its counters. Latias can't. It's just that simple. Sure, Latias has "better" distributed stats for bulky sweeping, but if your going with a Calm Mind + 3 attack set, or anything that involves max special attack don't bother. Latios has her outclassed.

 

[ViVi]

The thing that bothers me is that yache berry was the reason that garchomp got banned, pretty much (I don't want to start a giant argument). I think banning items on stuff would get far too complex. Anyway I am excited testing it.

The reasoning behind banning Soul Dew is that it is a Lati@s exclusive item, no other Pokemon can benefit from it. Banning an item on Chomp but not the other Pokemon is a whole mess of arguements that no one wants to get into.

 

[Birdy [old]]

And I'm going to disagree with that. Latias isn't "more dangerous" than Latios by any stretch of the imagination. The reason why Latios is more offensively threatening is the ability to do immediate damage. Latios can beat Tyranitar, Scizor, and many of its counters. Latias can't. It's just that simple. Sure, Latias has "better" distributed stats for bulky sweeping, but if your going with a Calm Mind + 3 attack set, or anything that involves max special attack don't bother. Latios has her outclassed.

Well, they are both Dangerous imo, although Latias is still better overall I feel. Being able to switch into stuff without taking as much damage in DPP is better than switching in and getting a huge chunk of your HP taken off.

I think it's kind of like Offensive CM Suicune vs Defensive CM Suicune. Both of them are excellent, and very capable of sweeping, but the defensive one is GENERALLY more practical (imo) simply because it can actually take a few extra hits. Dragonite vs Salamence is sort of the same argument too (although salamence is better than dragonite in this case)

However, that's all just theory, as they havent even started testing yet...

 

[Cyl3x]

Latias@Flame Orb
Timid/Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP 176 Spe 80 SpA/ 252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD
-Trick/Psycho shift
-Recover
-Dragon Pulse
-Hidden power[fire]/Surf/Refresh/Psycho Shift

The Tricker:
This could work I guess, Latias can lure it's counters(T-tar, Scizor, etc.) and trick can make a CBtar's Choice band dissapear, reducing it to a normal unboosted attack stat but with a burn too. The last slot is pretty open. Surf and Hidden power fire gives it coverage and Refresh removes the burn after the item has been tricked away. Psycho Shift allows it to spread burn once more after the orb has been given away.

Psycho Shifter:
Works much like the Psycho shift Cresselia. :/

I think it could work, seeing as most of it's counters are physical, they won't enjoy a burn.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Latias@Flame Orb
Timid/Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP 176 Spe 80 SpA/ 252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD
-Trick/Psycho shift
-Recover
-Dragon Pulse
-Hidden power[fire]/Surf/Refresh/Psycho Shift

The Tricker:
This could work I guess, Latias can lure it's counters(T-tar, Scizor, etc.) and trick can make a CBtar's Choice band dissapear, reducing it to a normal unboosted attack stat but with a burn too. The last slot is pretty open. Surf and Hidden power fire gives it coverage and Refresh removes the burn after the item has been tricked away. Psycho Shift allows it to spread burn once more after the orb has been given away.

Psycho Shifter:
Works much like the Psycho shift Cresselia. :/

I think it could work, seeing as most of it's counters are physical, they won't enjoy a burn.

Without Recover it will die, without Refresch it'll be dead soon, so it won't work because just Dragon Pulse isn't enough.

Well, they are both Dangerous imo, although Latias is still better overall I feel. Being able to switch into stuff without taking as much damage in DPP is better than switching in and getting a huge chunk of your HP taken off.

I think it's kind of like Offensive CM Suicune vs Defensive CM Suicune. Both of them are excellent, and very capable of sweeping, but the defensive one is GENERALLY more practical (imo) simply because it can actually take a few extra hits. Dragonite vs Salamence is sort of the same argument too (although salamence is better than dragonite in this case)

However, that's all just theory, as they havent even started testing yet...

I disagree, it all depends on your team. Offensive and defensive CM cune have the same stats, but Latios and Latias don't, the movesets also differ. Latios can be effective on both offensive and defensive teams because of its decent defensive stats. Latias however can't do very well as a sweeper, because it just lacks offensive stats.

I do not think Latias is inferior. Latias just serves another purpose, but I do not think Latias is generally more practical at all.

And I'm going to disagree with that. Latias isn't "more dangerous" than Latios by any stretch of the imagination. The reason why Latios is more offensively threatening is the ability to do immediate damage. Latios can beat Tyranitar, Scizor, and many of its counters. Latias can't. It's just that simple. Sure, Latias has "better" distributed stats for bulky sweeping, but if your going with a Calm Mind + 3 attack set, or anything that involves max special attack don't bother. Latios has her outclassed.

I don't agree. Being dangerous doesn't have much to do with dealing immediate damage. If being more dangerous means being a threat to your team, Latias can be an even bigger threat as a wall or CM user.

 

[Il Mitico™]

I suppose that time passes more and more you become crazy.
Understand how to test something Wynaut in OU, but testing two of more feared Uber... ok, I post a set for Latias...

Latias (F) @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

Or with a Choice Item and with Trick on HP Fire... found a single Pokémon that can counter this.

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

I suppose that time passes more and more you become crazy.
Understand how to test something Wynaut in OU, but testing two of more feared Uber... ok, I post a set for Latias...

Latias (F) @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

Or with a Choice Item and with Trick on HP Fire... found a single Pokémon that can counter this.

If I have to say mine, to the Lati@s I would never remove the Leftovers, Blissey with Toxic could weaken it of very, even in the movesets with Recovery Moves rather than to give Recover would be better to give them proper Rest for this motive.

 

[imperfectluck]

I don't know where else to post this, but I am opposed to testing Lati@s with species clause, letting you only have one of the two on a team, because part of the dragons' strength, if you so choose, is to overlap and stock up on dragon types because counters for dragons are so few that they can sweep easily once the counters are removed.

 

[diamondfan1910]

2HKO. I made another stupid mistake. What I meant was, since Ice Fang will always 2HKO you can't really throw more Defence in.

Mixed Latios anyone? Probably has too poor Attack to work.

 

[SkarmBlissFTW]

imperfectluck: No you. Latias is one species, Latios is another. Though I can imagine how centralizing the metagame will be if everyone uses both lati twins on their teams.

I don't think they'll leave uber. Even without Soul Dew, they're crazy. Even Blissey can't stop them because of CM, recover and Safeguard.

It's gonna be fun to try out something new at least.

 

[Veedrock]

I suppose that time passes more and more you become crazy.
Understand how to test something Wynaut in OU, but testing two of more feared Uber... ok, I post a set for Latias...

Latias (F) @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpAtk / 176 Spd
Modest nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]

Or with a Choice Item and with Trick on HP Fire... found a single Pokémon that can counter this.

I really don't see HP Fire doing anything. With Scizor you might as well switch out (or if you think they have a pursuit, do something else). Tyranitar still destroys Latias a thousand times over; Grass knot isn't going to do near enough. Same with Weavile and HP Fire. And I don't see a point to that EV spread without a timid nature. That's the exact spread Superachi (and others I'm sure) and they have a timid nature to guarantee you outrun the speed tier below you 100% of the time given the speed EVs. This set is asking for Salamence to murder you, along with Weavile, Tyranitar, Gengar, Ninjask (trust me, it WILL hurt, maybe even KO without proper defense), Mamoswine, etc.

I don't know where else to post this, but I am opposed to testing Lati@s with species clause, letting you only have one of the two on a team, because part of the dragons' strength, if you so choose, is to overlap and stock up on dragon types because counters for dragons are so few that they can sweep easily once the counters are removed.

I disagree, at least for the testing period. They do have a point when mentioning that the point of the test is to get a feel for the suspect. When dealing with 2, I think it's only logical to only allow one per team to get a feel for them seperately. I would kill to use them both on the same team, but you lose the point somewhat. After testing (and considering both make OU), I think that clause should be removed, as having two of the same type does make 1/3 of your team vulnerable to the same exact attacks, a weakness you are willingly accepting.

EDIT: Ok, Chris has a major point 2 posts below. I stand corrected.

 

[Bob Marley]

Allowing both to be used could scare off the less experienced battlers into voting uber right away. If it is tested one at a time not only does the user see how it affects the game but also the opponent.

 

[cim]

I don't know where else to post this, but I am opposed to testing Lati@s with species clause, letting you only have one of the two on a team, because part of the dragons' strength, if you so choose, is to overlap and stock up on dragon types because counters for dragons are so few that they can sweep easily once the counters are removed.

For once I agree with IPL. We should be testing them as they would be in OU. I think it's nt fair to dictate how people decide to get a feel for them, by intentionally limiting their strategic options.

If that's how they're going to be played in OU, then that's bullshit. They're not the same Species (I thought Species Clause was because two pokemon same sprite different moveset was "broken"), they're only marginally closer than Salamence and Dragonite in stats and movepool, and... yeah. Arbitrarily declaring them too similar would be dumb in OU.

 

[lilyhollow]

I think you're misinterpreting the "Lati species clause" as an alternative to testing both of them at the same time, when in reality that's pretty much not an option either way due to the nature of the Suspect test (testing more than one suspect at a time is considered a no-no).

Testing them during the same period, but never on the same team, allows us to closer replicate an isolated Latios and isolated Latias test, without actually testing them in isolation, so theoretically we're saving time but also preserving the integrity of the test more than by just lumping them together.

I don't think the intention, should Latios/Latias both become OU, is that this "species clause" would apply in the actual Standard metagame; to my understanding it's only a tool we're using to hopefully make this process a little more efficient. Testing them together is exactly what Stage 3 is for, but if I'm wrong and there would be some sort of "Lati@s clause" implemented if both were unbanned, I would obviously be opposed to that.

 

[cim]

Considering one outcome is allowing both at the same time (if that's not correct me), then we need to be able to test what it's like with both of them in the game, methinks.

I kind of wish we did the test backwards. One month with all Suspects allowed, people nominate Suspects to vote on, then each month we vote to ban them or not until we have OU.

 

[diamondfan1910]

Considering one outcome is allowing both at the same time (if that's not correct me), then we need to be able to test what it's like with both of them in the game, methinks.

I kind of wish we did the test backwards. One month with all Suspects allowed, people nominate Suspects to vote on, then each month we vote to ban them or not until we have OU.

I think you're right. I can imagine crazy OU with Mew, Manaphy, Garchomp and the Lati twins in there.

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

imperfectluck: No you. Latias is one species, Latios is another. Though I can imagine how centralizing the metagame will be if everyone uses both lati twins on their teams.

I don't think they'll leave uber. Even without Soul Dew, they're crazy. Even Blissey can't stop them because of CM, recover and Safeguard.

It's gonna be fun to try out something new at least.

and then they have 1 attack. also Blissey has psych up for CM

lati@s only have 3 counters off the top of my head BUT they have several checks and i think they can become OU since they dont rely on luck, arent uncounterable, and arent cheap. (the reasons why wobb, garchomp and apparently shaymin-s were banned)

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Dragon is a great mono-attacking type, though. It only has one resist and no 4x resists, plus it resists Fire from Heatran and Scizor's Special Defense is decidedly mediocre.

Blissey will never use Psych Up because it is absolutely worthless outside of countering esoteric CMers.