Lati@s in OU??

[Brawley]

Here's a good question.
With Out Sould Dew what seperates both from other stuff like Celebi or Jirachi. (All can calm mind and heal themselves)
Celebi:100/100/100/100/100/100
Jirachi:100/100/100/100/100/100
Latios:80/90/80/130/110/110
Latias:80/90/80/110/130/110
Lati@s Have Lower HP/Attack/Defense, but Have Higher Sp.Attack/Sp.Defense/Speed. After typing this,I say they should be allowed.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think speed is underestimated here.

The 10-8 points of difference in speed between lati@s and Garchomp/Mence is huge. Outrunning the other dragons and infernape, as well as being able to tie Starmie and Gengar makes them totally different imo.

 

[Bogmire]

starmie is faster than lati@s

 

[Aldaron]

Basic tournament to test them out?

Btw, Latios can reach 350 speed and 359 special attack...Meaning it is a better specsmence. Granted, you'll know that once Latias comes out it is special, but still. That is really fearsome, and it doesn't have a 4 * weakness, so the normal ice sharders like Weavile and Mamoswine won't be able to do anything.

Again, I support testing in a basic tournament to determine this.

 

[gorm]

now that i think of it, its weaks to pursuit and outrage are not really significant compared to its neutral sr/no 4x weak factor.

 

[Djengo]

god I hate Lati@s I went to a nintendo event torni (pokemon connection tour 07 Australia) last june and they played using the Battle Tower allowed pokemon and of course they torni was swamped with noobs using Latios mostly with soul dew, I came 6th in 128 because of a damn latios and both he and his sister should be banned from OU play for good considering their awesome Base Stats and Moveset they dont deserve to be in OU

 

[Chou Toshio]

starmie is faster than lati@s

lol, my spaz

. . . though 1 on 1 Lati@s still wins in the thunderbolt v. Ice Beam war . . .

 

[hbdragon88]

Well most of Lati@s counters in ubers are OU pokes (Metagross, Blissey, TTar and even stuff like Registeel) so I can see it working ok in OU, not that gamebreaking and it's worth a try.

Ah, this is where Latios screams for a Fire move for the Steels (outside of Hidden Power). This is where Specsmence still holds an edge. Timid Specs/Soul Dew Latios with maxed special attack can only do 23.35% - 27.47% with Thunderbolt or Surf on a max HP/SDef Registeel with +SDef nature (and the special wall Registeel set can do 34.88% - 41.20% back with Ice Punch). On the other hand, Modest Specsmence can do 45.60% - 53.57% to the same Registeel with Flamethrower (but Registeel can deal 63.44% - 74.62% back in damage).

Mentioning Tyranitar reminds me of a bad experience at the Elite Four. My Level 98 Modest Latios couldn't OHKO Gary's Level 75 Tyranitar, and that was without the special defense boost. I slapped Calm Mind on Latios specifically to deal with that T-tar otherwise Gary would just keep using Full Restores as Latios got worn down by Sand Stream damage. I was thinking, wow, Tryanitar...it must be super strong to be able to stand strong with a 30-level difference.

 

[Duckster]

I would actually be all for the unbanning of Lati, though the arguments in your first post have been beaten down time and time again, so it'll likely never happen.

I won't deny that Latios would be somewhat gamebreaking in OU, there's no doubt about it. In fact I can see my self complaining time and time again about losing to shit like Specs Lati.

Still though, I can't help but get the feeling we are playing a fake as fuck game when we do standard competitive battles. I know there is no "set in stone" rule set in the games themselves, though we have been given a pretty good guide line to follow as to what's "supposed" to be banned and what isn't.

 

[Lee]

Sure, I see no problem with testing them again. The ADV testing proved them to be uber material, but with all the new threats to Dragons and Psychics in D/P, they may be a bit easier to handle.

But they're still gonna prove to be way too strong imo. Seriously, can people stop listing counters to them, because they are nearly impossible to counter unless you know their set. You're wasting your time with Ice Beam (0/0 Latias takes less than 50% from Starmie's Ice Beam), Blissey can only watch on in horror whilst they Calm Mind 6 times, Charm/Reflect can keep T-tar and Weavile away. Metagross w/ Pursuit is the best option, but maybe I'd just whack Magnezone or Dugtrio in my team?

 

[Pyong]

The Lati@s only counter would be blissey, and even she takes a nice amount of demage from Specs modest latios using draco meteor, plus, he have the boltbeam combo.

 

[Trust]

Weighted usage in December in OU:

1. Blissey (56445215 points) Blissey would be the main counter to LAti@s, with her huge capabilities as Special Wall.
2. Garchomp (48969247 points) Scarfchomp with Outrage will be a problem to Lati@s.
3. Gengar (47210300 points) Gengar will outspeed them most of the time, and with Hypnosis or a Choice Specs Shadow Ball, LAti@s will have problems.
4. Gyarados (40376718 points) Gyarados will die with a Thunderbolt, so it couldn't counter them.
5. Tyranitar (39969044 points) My name is Tyranitar, I have a x1.5 special defense boost, and my CB pursuit hurts.
6. Infernape (35691877 points) Too weak, and it can't hurt them, the same as with Gyarados or Dragonite/Salamence.
7. Salamence (32224350 points) Salamence will have problems with them, but a CS Draco Meteor or CB Dragon Claw...
8. Metagross (32207375 points) There is not a good attack from Lati@s to hit SE Metagross, and with Ice Punch or Pursuit, Metagross will hurt them.
9. Cresselia (32110627 points) Cresselia can Thunder Wave them, Calm Mind and Ice Beam. It won't counter them, but can TW'd, and with this, they will be more counterable.
10. Heatran (30859801 points) I think that Lati@s don't have a SE attack for Heatran, but Earthquake (most Lati@s are special I think), so Heatran could hit them hard with CSpecs Dragon Pulse.
11. Weavile (30232692 points) Other good pursuiter, which will outspeed them to hit hard with Night Slash too.
12. Swampert (30186353 points) Grass Knot will hurt him, so he won't do anything to them.
13. Bronzong (28521378 points) Bronzong can wall them, Hypnosis, Trick Room, Explosion, Light Screen.
14. Starmie (27301476 points) I don't know what could Starmie do to them, but Ice Beam vs Thunderbolt...
15. Skarmory (27238903 points) No way...
16. Lucario (26432506 points) Good resistances to Lati@s move pool I think, but what can it do against them? Dark Pulse?
17. Forretress (26006614 points) HP Fire hurts it... but if they don't carry it, it can use explosion.
18. Gliscor (25726966 points) I don't think so...
19. Breloom (25024670 points) Too slow to Spore them...
20. Heracross (23514414 points) Megahorn will hurt them a lot, and with Choice Scarf it outspeed them.

What do you think?

 

[Jibaku]

TBH Lati@s deserve testing. We see TTar and Garchomp everyday, and they do absolutely massive damage to teams. Some pokemon in OU doesn't even have counters (read: Gengar, TTar (according to SePh anyways)). Basically Bliss + TTar stops all form of Lati@s. Bliss takes the Specs version whereas TTar takes the CM versions and the like. Remember that Lati@s get Refresh, making your attempts of paralyzing them absolutely useless (well, this is from an uber point of view, actually, where Refresh Latias baits Toxic Blisseys, which leads me to Calm Minding and sweeping).

 

[Trust]

would you spend a slot for refresh? I don't think so. Refresh, Recover, Calm Mind, and one slot. You need 2 attacks at least. Thunder Wave hurts them a lot. And we forgot Magnezone, it resists all their most used attacks: Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Draco Meteor, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot... only Earthquake hurts him.

 

[Lee]

Blissey would be the main counter to LAti@s, with her huge capabilities as Special Wall.

Calm Mind/SafeGuard/Recover/Dragon Pulse = gg Blissey and the rest of your team unless you have Weavile or something.

Scarfchomp with Outrage will be a problem to Lati@s.

And that will switch into what, exactly?

Gengar will outspeed them most of the time, and with Hypnosis or a Choice Specs Shadow Ball, LAti@s will have problems.

They have the exact same speed. Timid 252 SpA Shadow Ball does 81-96% to 0/0 Latios and 71-83% to 0/0 Latias. The Lati's Psychic/DM destroys Gengar every time.

Salamence will have problems with them, but a CS Draco Meteor or CB Dragon Claw...

Latis = 110 Speed. Sala = 100 speed.

Cresselia can Thunder Wave them, Calm Mind and Ice Beam. It won't counter them, but can TW'd, and with this, they will be more counterable.

See Blissey.

I think that Lati@s don't have a SE attack for Heatran, but Earthquake (most Lati@s are special I think), so Heatran could hit them hard with CSpecs Dragon Pulse.

Surf.

Other good pursuiter, which will outspeed them to hit hard with Night Slash too.

Not a safe counter, unless he gets in on Psychic or Calm Mind.

Megahorn will hurt them a lot, and with Choice Scarf it outspeed them.

Can't switch in.

 

[Jibaku]

would you spend a slot for refresh? I don't think so. Refresh, Recover, Calm Mind, and one slot. You need 2 attacks at least. Thunder Wave hurts them a lot. And we forgot Magnezone, it resists all their most used attacks: Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Draco Meteor, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot... only Earthquake hurts him.

Well there are a few stuff I can say about this. Nothing but steels/Shedinja resist Dragon, and there's not many steels that handle Lati@s well. Zone gets Calm Minded on, unless you decide to Metal Sound + HP ice them. Same goes for heatran, really. Jirachi isn't really gonna hurt them, and Registeel needs Curse before Ice Punch starts doing something (and it takes 2 curses for ice Punch to 2HKO Latias, I believe). Probopass is lol, Skarmory won't like STABed CM Dragon Pulse in the face (and so does Forretress). Steelix and Zong's Gyro Ball can be stalled out by Recover, leaving Metagross as the only reliable steel type counter to it.

 

[gengod]

Lee, i honestly dont see the reasoning behind your post, you post what moves Lati@s needs in order to counter pokemon that could possibly give them trouble, but they can't possibly have all of those moves on one set.

Theoretically i could do this for alot of OU pokemon. Gengar, Garchomp and Tyranitar are examples of such pokemon

Yes they are powerful pokemon, but your post makes them sound invincible in OU which they clearly are not.

I honestly think they should just be tested and we should stop looking at these things on paper.

 

[sbc]

Levitate
Calm Mind
Recover
Safeguard
130 base sp atk
110 base spd
Good defenses
Dragon Pulse (STAB 90 base with no immunities)

What do you see taking down Latios bar Weavile and maybe Regice?

 

[Trust]

^True (Maniaclyrasist)
- Choice Specs Lati@s: you will be able to have 4 attacks, one of them will be Draco Meteor, and the other 3 will be: Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Surf, Dragon Pulse, maybe Earthquake... so you will lose some coverage, so Heatran will have a good job if you don't have Earthquake or Surf, which is the most probable. Magnezone walls all this attacks expect Earthquake. Blissey and Cresselia can Softboiled or Moonlight the damage.
- Calm Mind Lati@s: Cresselia and Blissey lose their walling, but with 2 or 3 attacks, you will have problems with some pokes like Magnezone, Heatran, Tyranitar, Metagross...
- Other Sets: Latios can Dragon Dance, but in my opinion, Dragonite and Salamence do it better. Latias can be a support one, with wish, Reflect or Light Screen, but it won't be so dangerous.

They have the same problem as Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Metagross, and a long list... They need more than 4 slots to counter all the metagame. Do you know an absolute Gengar's counter?

 

[Mekkah]

Latios @ Choice Specs
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power Fire
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

Salamence @ Choice Specs
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump/Hidden Power Ground
- Dragon Pulse

Just to demonstrate the difference in power, we'll take the best case scenario for Salamence: Latios using HP Fire vs Salamence using its Fire move.

Timid Salamence - 299 SpAtk (448 with Specs), 328 Spd
Timid Latios - 359 SpAtk (538 with Specs), 350 Spd
Modest Salamence - 328 SpAtk (492 with Specs), 299 Spd
Modest Latios - 394 SpAtk (591 with Specs), 319 Spd

Level * Base Power * Special Attack

Hidden Power Fire Latios:
Timid - 1581720
Modest - 1737540

Flamethrower Salamence:
Timid - 1193010
Modest - 1308720

Fire Blast Salamence:
Timid - 1506960
Modest - 1653120

So as you can see, Timid Latios' Hidden Power is more powerful than Timid Salamence Fire Blast. Everywhere else, Latios' 20 extra Special Attack (realistically 40) comes into play and makes it even more powerful. Boltbeam is also much more preferable coverage than...whatever Hydro Pump/Hidden Power Ground/another Dragon move does for you. Honestly.

From what I recall, Life Orb Latios can nearly KO a Tyranitar with Draco Meteor after a Calm Mind.

^True (Maniaclyrasist)
- Choice Specs Lati@s: you will be able to have 4 attacks, one of them will be Draco Meteor, and the other 3 will be: Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Surf, Dragon Pulse, maybe Earthquake... so you will lose some coverage, so Heatran will have a good job if you don't have Earthquake or Surf, which is the most probable. Magnezone walls all this attacks expect Earthquake. Blissey and Cresselia can Softboiled or Moonlight the damage.
- Calm Mind Lati@s: Cresselia and Blissey lose their walling, but with 2 or 3 attacks, you will have problems with some pokes like Magnezone, Heatran, Tyranitar, Metagross...
- Other Sets: Latios can Dragon Dance, but in my opinion, Dragonite and Salamence do it better. Latias can be a support one, with wish, Reflect or Light Screen, but it won't be so dangerous.

They have the same problem as Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Metagross, and a long list... They need more than 4 slots to counter all the metagame. Do you know an absolute Gengar's counter?

At least Gengar dies in one or two hits from about anything and needs to take huge ass risks with Focus Punch/Explosion to take on Blissey, and Gengar's STAB doesn't hit neutral on everyfuckingthing except Steel. It's not a good comparison.

 

[Swimrunner]

This would require teams to carry CM/Psych Up Blissey in OU, which I'm not sure is a good thing. In fact, every team would absolutely be forced to have a 2+ pokemon plan (and a pursuiter) just to have a hope at countering the twins.

 

[Havak]

All I can say is:

Test it, and see it was a waste of time.

The game will become even more restricted. Everyone is scared of Salamence, Tyranitar and Garchomp already. You pack your team with counters because you don't want them to own you, sometimes they STILL beat you.

It'll be the same for Lati@s. Everyone will fear that the opponent has them, but the problem is they're even more crazy stats and movepool wise. Everyone will have to make sure they have a counter or two or they'll basically lose everytime someone uses this Pokémon.

The problem is that Lati@s has the moves to stop its counters (maybe bar Metagross but you do have HP Fire), I always feel that to truly counter a Pokémon you'll need to be confident you can stop all of its movesets... If you can't you always risk the chance of it beating you. Lati@s is an example of this.

Things that are hard to counter like Gengar, Tyranitar and Chomp usually die in 1 hit though, from quite a few different Pokémon. Lati@s will not.

It will ruin the game IMO, but test it if you like.

 

[Earthworm]

I played in a Nintendo Tournament where non Soul Dew Lati@s were allowed, 3v3...

I won the tournament with Milotic, Gengar and Heracross. One of the teams I faced had both SpecsLatios AND ScarfLatias, and although I admit I won due to lack of Sleep Clause (lol..), I feel that there are plenty of counters/threats in OU for them, as there is for every other Pokemon. I have listed some*.

Metagross takes care of them fairly easily, and although it can't repeatedly switch in, Pursuit can be added to deal large amounts of damage as the Lati@s run.

CBTar will take on any non-HP Fighting Lati@s with ease, (I haven't damage calced it but Pursuit should probably OHKO a switching Lati... If it is choiced then it will have little choice (pun?) and die anyway, if not then it will have to have a heavy defense investment and end up dying to a Crunch anyway.

Weavile can't switch in too well but can hit hard with physical dark moves.

Pokemon with Taunt or Encore (Togekiss, Spiritomb, Shuckle) that can shrug off a hit from Lati@s can allow for it to be set up on.

Jirachi with or without special defense investment can U-Turn to a counter allowing it to outspeed and KO them, or force a switch as usual.

Heatran can switch in and Taunt (Leftovers/LO) or Dragon Pulse (Specs/Scarf) to 'probably' ruin a Lati@s chances at setting up/doing much.

Blissey can switch in and cripple a non-safeguard version, and even against a Safeguard version, the Stoss/need for a Lati to recover can allow you to outpredict and kill it. CMBliss will beat any Lati unless one gets absurdly lucky.

Gengar cannot switch in but can probably do some good damage with Shadow Ball or sleep it (the speed tie kinda sucks though).

Dusknoir can stall DM PP and hit back with Shadow/Ice Punch.

Heracross can outpredict and use Pursuit or Megahorn, but cannot switch in most of the time.

Yanmega poses practically the same threat as Gengar.

Empoleon can Roar it out without too much risk, depending obviously on the moveset.

Bronzong can switch into anything and set up its usual stuff/explode/GB.

Other Lati@s can switch into any move that isn't Dragon typed and pose a threat depending on the item of the opposing Lati.

*Some of these can't really be classified as a counter as they cannot switch in, but they pose a threat.


For me, the Lati@s seem like a cross between SpecsMence/MixMence and SpecsMie... They can Recover but not easily/without risk. They are always at risk from Pursuiters, especially as a revenge kill. Once their item is revealed, they are much more easily dealt with (providing of course that your team carries a counter...). They are fast, but not as fast as some of their competition/counters.

Sure, they might not have a plethora of counters unlike some of the powerful OU Pokemon... But just as some teams can't handle CalmCune, CursiRock, NPNape, BOAH... If the Lati@s are brought into OU then they will certainly change the metagame and teams will have to adapt.

I'm not necessarily saying that Lati@s should be brought down to OU status, but they could certainly be countered if they were... But they are much less broken than Manaphy in OU, for instance.

 

[Trust]

I think that LAti@s have few options: Choice Specs/Scarf, which can be walled by Blissey. Calm Mind set, which can be hurt by any steel or Tyranitar if it only have Dragon Pulse. They can go mixed, which I think that is the best one. With Draco Meteor, Earthquake and Thunderbolt it can hit all in the metagame, except Shedinja, which also walls all the Lati@s sets without Shadow Ball or HP fire.

 

[zxn666]

The lati twins will turn into a huge threat if put in OU, they will knock specsmence off of its throne as best draco meteor user, and can easily sweep through teams. the only surefire counter i see is Metagross, who can switch in on draco meteor (Which will do bullshit damage) and then pursuit its ass as it switches out. that's only for specs versions though. life orb versions have to be revenge killed unless you get a lucky switch in with scarf hera or something, and even then they do not have a gaping 4x weakness to anything. they can be countered, but it will be tough

that being said, however, they kinda suck in ubers.