Latios can learn Surf and Psychic to deal with both of them, though the chances of him carrying both are highy unlikely.
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Lati@s in OU??
- Thread starter RaikouLover
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Latios can learn Surf and Psychic to deal with both of them, though the chances of him carrying both are highy unlikely.
That is one of the reasons that they are too good. They have a move-pool to rival Blissey.
Very true, ubers aren't as game breaking as most people think.
i once played agains an uber team with my OU team and barely scraped a victory, and my opponent wasn't a retard uber noob either.
if i remember right, my specsmence managed to OHKO his Arceus, dunno what happened there, but it happened
Me and Maniaclyracist battled with my test Lati@s team, and we had a discussion. They aren't hard to counter, SpecsLatios is okay, but just a little more powerful than Salamence, and Latias is just like any other calm minder, Plus a lot of standard team counter them. Tyranitar can come in on a lot of attacks and iirc Choce Specs Draco Meteor didnt KO. Plus both take a shit load from pursuit. Both of us are ok with them being standard. On a side note. Lati@s with: Calm Mind, Dragon Pulse, Safeguard, Recover is okay at best.
EDIT: also I had many battles with them, not one.
EDIT: also I had many battles with them, not one.
So what are you going to do? Are you going to form a petition and send it to chaos or something?
1 battle, 1 team. and TTar has been named as one of the few counters already. You have proved nothing.
Maybe after the Rainbow Cup and the Deoxys-E Shoddy Cup yield results of some kind a 'Lati w/o Soul Dew' cup could be arranged.
I have this weird feeling like I've seen this before.
I predict a post|close saying that the metagame and tiers are already defined enough that we do not need to discuss this any longer.
Although I'd love to use non-Soul Dew Latias.
Mr_Goodbar4321 said:
I predict a post|close saying that the metagame and tiers are already defined enough that we do not need to discuss this any longer.
Although I'd love to use non-Soul Dew Latias.
quoting this to underline how important this point is and that i largely agree. in an ideal world we'd allow lati@s on the ladder for like a full month so it can actually prove something, but maniaclyrasist and i believe that may be more trouble than it's worth (clausing soul dew in standard battles)
^ I think it's worth the trouble. I mean, clausing Soul Dew isn't as arbitrary as it sounds ... haven't many public events that banned ubers also banned Soul Dew Lati@s while allowing the two without?
I also have to agree with a person that is saying that we're making up a "fake metagame" by banning things that we claim too powerful. Sure, they have many advantages over Salamence, but Salamence has its own advantages, (higher physical offense, intimidate, resistance to bug moves, not being weak to pursuit) and Latias' seemingly bulkier typing also brought weaknesses that could be taken advantage of. They are additional elite forces to reckon, but there are accessable, not exclusive, counters for them.
I know this is all just theory rather than actual experience. My thing is that banning Lati@s because they are excessively offensive and durable on the special side may work for us when playing standard metagame at smogon, but what if a whole batch of players from a separate environment plays a metagame that includes Soul Dew-less Lati@s? They're metagame will be significantly different, and possibly more advanced, since they know how to not only effectively use the Lati@s in standard play, but they also have designed teams and playing styles that accommodate two extra dragons.
Sure, there are valid reasons for smogon to ban stuff that aren't conventionally banned anywhere else. Wobbuffet, for example, is a very unique pokemon that could change the entire metagame on its own; an exemplar of overcentralization. Although I wasn't exactly battling DP at the time, Manaphy, with its lack of weaknesses characteristic to waters, Suicune-like defense, Tail Glow, and Hydration, must have overcentralized the metagame as well. Lati@s are nothing close to that, with sufficient weak spots to take advantage of, and their counters have practical usages that doesn't hinder a team's coverage on other threats. I think Brawlex's posts reflect this adaptation clearly. Imo, our rules / restrictions for standard plays should be at a minimum (the conventional sleep clause, freeze clause, self-KO clause, OHKO clause) with little 'invented' rules as possible.
I also have to agree with a person that is saying that we're making up a "fake metagame" by banning things that we claim too powerful. Sure, they have many advantages over Salamence, but Salamence has its own advantages, (higher physical offense, intimidate, resistance to bug moves, not being weak to pursuit) and Latias' seemingly bulkier typing also brought weaknesses that could be taken advantage of. They are additional elite forces to reckon, but there are accessable, not exclusive, counters for them.
I know this is all just theory rather than actual experience. My thing is that banning Lati@s because they are excessively offensive and durable on the special side may work for us when playing standard metagame at smogon, but what if a whole batch of players from a separate environment plays a metagame that includes Soul Dew-less Lati@s? They're metagame will be significantly different, and possibly more advanced, since they know how to not only effectively use the Lati@s in standard play, but they also have designed teams and playing styles that accommodate two extra dragons.
Sure, there are valid reasons for smogon to ban stuff that aren't conventionally banned anywhere else. Wobbuffet, for example, is a very unique pokemon that could change the entire metagame on its own; an exemplar of overcentralization. Although I wasn't exactly battling DP at the time, Manaphy, with its lack of weaknesses characteristic to waters, Suicune-like defense, Tail Glow, and Hydration, must have overcentralized the metagame as well. Lati@s are nothing close to that, with sufficient weak spots to take advantage of, and their counters have practical usages that doesn't hinder a team's coverage on other threats. I think Brawlex's posts reflect this adaptation clearly. Imo, our rules / restrictions for standard plays should be at a minimum (the conventional sleep clause, freeze clause, self-KO clause, OHKO clause) with little 'invented' rules as possible.
well as far as long term changes go on either shoddy or the upcoming competitor, that could easily be implemented as some sort of checkbox clause, something that doesn't let Soul Dew work at all unless both opponents check off an "Uber Battle" checkbox that indicates that both players want Soul Dew to work
and as far as a nearby tournament is concerned, or whether you want to play with Soul Dew Lati@s like right now—you can see pretty easily when an attack does 1.5× damage instead of 1×, or 2× damage instead of 1.5×...etc. even with the strict damage clause on, you will (or should) either be able to tell how strong a Lati@s attack should have been, or it didn't matter because it would have OHKOed anyway
and as far as a nearby tournament is concerned, or whether you want to play with Soul Dew Lati@s like right now—you can see pretty easily when an attack does 1.5× damage instead of 1×, or 2× damage instead of 1.5×...etc. even with the strict damage clause on, you will (or should) either be able to tell how strong a Lati@s attack should have been, or it didn't matter because it would have OHKOed anyway
@Gormenghast: I don't know about that. I now have 7 Ho-oh logs, and in all but one, Ho-oh was miserably smashed into tiny pieces, by an assortment of a) Stealth Rock, b) Tyranitar, c) Lucario [roflcopter, Subcario ate a Ho-oh], d) Baton Pass, e) Another Ho-oh, f) Toxi-stall Cresselia.
The last one survived until the end of the match, as it was on the winner's team, but contributed almost nothing to the match, merely knocking out one Pokemon who was already on low health (another Ho-oh), and then doing respectable damage to the next Pokemon, before being switched out.
If this is what happens to Ho-oh when it gets tested, I really want to see Lati8s getting tested, because if you never try things out, you'll never know.
EDIT: Not that I'm going to actually post anything about Rainbow Cup until I have at least 10 decent logs of Ho-ohs getting munched, otherwise the mods, namely Phuquoph and Mekkah, will eat my brains and turn me into a flesheating zombie with no mind to call it's own.
The last one survived until the end of the match, as it was on the winner's team, but contributed almost nothing to the match, merely knocking out one Pokemon who was already on low health (another Ho-oh), and then doing respectable damage to the next Pokemon, before being switched out.
If this is what happens to Ho-oh when it gets tested, I really want to see Lati8s getting tested, because if you never try things out, you'll never know.
EDIT: Not that I'm going to actually post anything about Rainbow Cup until I have at least 10 decent logs of Ho-ohs getting munched, otherwise the mods, namely Phuquoph and Mekkah, will eat my brains and turn me into a flesheating zombie with no mind to call it's own.
Like a few other members have stated here, whether or not the Lati@s are respectable for the OU tier is irrelivant to the fact that we don't have an excuse to not test them for D/P. I think they could do very well in OU, rivaling Garchomp and Blissey in use. I don't believe they would be overpowered to the point of ludicrous, like other people are afraid of. If a Pokemon is good enough within a tier, counter(s) will be found and used to deal with that threat.
On a side note, I think a set like this would cause major problems for teams:
Lati@s @ Leftovers
Bold/Modest/Timid
Dragon Pulse/Filler
HP Fire/HP Fighting/Filler
Substitute
Calm Mind
Safeguard is used to protect against Status. This in my opinion does it far better. Simply set up Sub on the switch to a counter, and Calm Mind up or hit their "counter" for severe damage. I run a very similar Suicune set that sweeps many teams, especially since they don't count on Suicune being faster than the Pogey trying to Status me, or the fact that I have Substitute instead of Roar/Rest. This set may not surprise as many as my Suicune would considerig Lati@s are naturally fast, but it would work wonders against Pursuit users.
On a side note, I think a set like this would cause major problems for teams:
Lati@s @ Leftovers
Bold/Modest/Timid
Dragon Pulse/Filler
HP Fire/HP Fighting/Filler
Substitute
Calm Mind
Safeguard is used to protect against Status. This in my opinion does it far better. Simply set up Sub on the switch to a counter, and Calm Mind up or hit their "counter" for severe damage. I run a very similar Suicune set that sweeps many teams, especially since they don't count on Suicune being faster than the Pogey trying to Status me, or the fact that I have Substitute instead of Roar/Rest. This set may not surprise as many as my Suicune would considerig Lati@s are naturally fast, but it would work wonders against Pursuit users.
Carnivine also has LEVITATE. :] Carnivine is uber.
Anyway, I don't think Latios should become OU anyway, it would just increase the usage of Blissey. And I hate seeing that thing. ^_^
either way, the only reason i want lati@s in OU is so i can use them and whip ass. they don't function well enough in ubers in my opinion, just like how mew doesn't function too well and other base 600 pokemon don't function too well
in a metagame where most pokemon have 670+ base stats and attack off the charts, i just don't see how the Lati@s could function is it wasn't for soul dew
in a metagame where most pokemon have 670+ base stats and attack off the charts, i just don't see how the Lati@s could function is it wasn't for soul dew
The only problem is that it can counter itself. So when you use it to whip other people's asses, they may do the very same to you.
IMO we should allows Lati@s in ladder for a month and see how it goes. Okay, yes people will try to metagame against the change, but still. If they're doing that, then they'll usually leave their teams weak to something else people might still use. If they got all of those covered, then they basically just adapted to the new metagame. Of course, unless everyone starts running the same team...
The item ban point sounded like a great idea at first, but let's look at it this way. In some tourneys/places, Soul Dew is banned (Jap Nintendo tourneys, Orre Colosseum, Battle Tower/Frontier (actually Soul Dew just doesn't work there)). It's a special exception. They aren't gonna go through every list of pokemon and methods of weakening them. They could do this with Light Balless Pikachu and stuff, I guess.
The item ban point sounded like a great idea at first, but let's look at it this way. In some tourneys/places, Soul Dew is banned (Jap Nintendo tourneys, Orre Colosseum, Battle Tower/Frontier (actually Soul Dew just doesn't work there)). It's a special exception. They aren't gonna go through every list of pokemon and methods of weakening them. They could do this with Light Balless Pikachu and stuff, I guess.
Uber isn't a tier, though, which defeats that point.
Soul Dew as an item shouldn't be compared to items other than Light ball, Thick club and Clamperl's items, because as an item that only affects one (in this case two) Pokemon is inherently different from most other items. Normally the item is given to an unviable poke like Pikachu or Marowak to make them viable, in this case the item is given to an already fantastic Pokemon. It is IMO the sole exception (if Lati@s are excepted into OU) to the rule that any poke can have any item. It's a completely justifiable exception and shouldn't be compared to pointless arguments like "HRR CB Bliss".
My opinion is that Lati@s should be tested. I wouldn't be opposed to them becoming part of the OU metagame, however I do expect them to change it drastically (not necessarily a bad thing).
My opinion is that Lati@s should be tested. I wouldn't be opposed to them becoming part of the OU metagame, however I do expect them to change it drastically (not necessarily a bad thing).
A faux tier, whose point is to balance a metagame.
Is Marowak without Thick Club really allowed in UU?
I tried a battle vs. friend with latios I countered it by well,using a CB-Gross on a predicted Dragon Pulse. Also I don't understand why all you people are wailing SpecsMence get Fire Blast to deal with Defensive Steels,whereas SpecsLatios/Support Latias(which are the only types of Latios/Latias that should be used IMO) are easily counter by a defensive CB-Gross,Rest-talk Gross,Blissey etc so ._. don't tell me that using CBGross overcentralizes the metagame. The thing was Ou to begin with and if the Latis become OU the only difference is that the Smart Players will start using Metagross/Blissey/Regirock(under Sadstorm)/Cradily(Under Sandstorm more) In my opinion regardless of inferior defenses Azelf is much more threatening with the threat of LO'd T-Bolt/Psychich/U-Turn/Explosion so please stop test and THINK before you say,"oh noes chaos and jumpman said BLAH BLAH they're uber!" please just shut up ._.
It seems to be the general attitude in this thread that removing Soul Dew from Lati@s means that it no longer has an item. You can still slap some Choice Specs on to your Latios, at which point its attacking power is comparable to Specs Heatran, Specs Z, or Specs-Alakazam, while its other stats are generally highly superior (except for speed, which is below Alakazam while above Heatran and Porygon-Z). And even without a boosting item, he still has base 110 special defense, which, when paired with Recover on say a Life Orb set, allows him to shrug off a lot of attacks.
Latias would have similar problems though, as with all special walls, she's somewhat eclipsed by Blissey.
Naturally this is all theorycraft, but nevertheless I'm skeptical about just suddenly chucking Latios and Latias into the OU bracket and clausing out Soul Dew. There needs to be some kind of test period (NOT a tournament, PLEASE) to make sure these guys are or aren't as broken as they seem.
Latias would have similar problems though, as with all special walls, she's somewhat eclipsed by Blissey.
Naturally this is all theorycraft, but nevertheless I'm skeptical about just suddenly chucking Latios and Latias into the OU bracket and clausing out Soul Dew. There needs to be some kind of test period (NOT a tournament, PLEASE) to make sure these guys are or aren't as broken as they seem.
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