Latios would actually need 192 Evs in speed to outspeed Adamant max speed Scarfchomp since Chomp hit 454 max, and Latios with 152 Evs in speed only hits 441 after a DD.
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Lati@s in OU??
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
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Latios would actually need 192 Evs in speed to outspeed Adamant max speed Scarfchomp since Chomp hit 454 max, and Latios with 152 Evs in speed only hits 441 after a DD.
i remembered lati@s's base speed as 115 and not 110, oops. not like it needs 100 HP EVs. also please don't double post in the future
Shuckle can toxic them and lock them into a love, letting you switch in something, like a tyranitar. :P
As I pointed out earlier, Shuckle will die if Lati@s packs Surf. As for Shuckle, I suppose he can Power Trick, then finish them off with Gyro Ball.
Ok... I was battling my freind, he was kinda noobish back then... I was into competitive battling and I was winning 5-0... he brings out his last pokemon... Latios... he killed all 6 of my pokemon...
The lati twins have higher speed than Mence and Garchomp.... incredible typing... able to learn moves and always have an unpredictable moveset...
Levitate is always a good ability.... its like a Salamence that isnt 4x weak to ice but still is immune to ground moves... Faster... awesome moveset, only 5 weaknesses...
If lati twins were allowed, everyone who wanted to win would have one on their team... there would almost be no reason to have specsmence when there is the lati twins... I mean, for their speed, they are too powerfull if you compare them to other pokemon around their speed like Starmie and Gengar... Try it YOURSELF, do a regular OU match, but have one player use a Latios or Latias or even... BOTH, and just watch how easy it is to tear the opponent apart
The only reason certian people want the Lati twins to be useable.. is so they can put them on their team and dominate the competition... little do they know they will have to go up against lati twins themselvs.. everyone would have lati twin on their team ... and no more specsmens...
there tooo fast for their power and type and moves!
The lati twins have higher speed than Mence and Garchomp.... incredible typing... able to learn moves and always have an unpredictable moveset...
Levitate is always a good ability.... its like a Salamence that isnt 4x weak to ice but still is immune to ground moves... Faster... awesome moveset, only 5 weaknesses...
If lati twins were allowed, everyone who wanted to win would have one on their team... there would almost be no reason to have specsmence when there is the lati twins... I mean, for their speed, they are too powerfull if you compare them to other pokemon around their speed like Starmie and Gengar... Try it YOURSELF, do a regular OU match, but have one player use a Latios or Latias or even... BOTH, and just watch how easy it is to tear the opponent apart
The only reason certian people want the Lati twins to be useable.. is so they can put them on their team and dominate the competition... little do they know they will have to go up against lati twins themselvs.. everyone would have lati twin on their team ... and no more specsmens...
there tooo fast for their power and type and moves!
I reckon after reading this that they should be at least tested, I reckon that while they'll still be a bit powerful but theorycraft wont really solve the issue by itself, and letting them be tested for say a month or two would most likely definitively solve this.
Also, on the issue, you have to take into account how well they work with other pokemon. For example, imagine a team with not only specsmence but Draco Meteor Latis(and possibly a Dragonite in there as well for kicks). Specsmence is already a big threat, having the capability of having 3 DM pokes each with base Sp.Attack and Speed over 100 and different capabilities outside DM could centralise the metagame further around pokemon like Blissey, Registeel and other big special walls, simply because that combo of pokemon could overwhelm teams. However, this needs to be tested in real games to really get an answer imo.
Also, on the issue, you have to take into account how well they work with other pokemon. For example, imagine a team with not only specsmence but Draco Meteor Latis(and possibly a Dragonite in there as well for kicks). Specsmence is already a big threat, having the capability of having 3 DM pokes each with base Sp.Attack and Speed over 100 and different capabilities outside DM could centralise the metagame further around pokemon like Blissey, Registeel and other big special walls, simply because that combo of pokemon could overwhelm teams. However, this needs to be tested in real games to really get an answer imo.
Jibaku said:
Glen^^ said:
Try backing yourself up in a topic like this, lol. Just stating "x = y" without any opinion given is not going to help anything.
Anyway, if these things would be allowed I see no reason to use Specsmence anymore. Like, at all, except "they won't expect it!!!". Lati@s are so superior at what he does, it's amazing.
But really, I think the last thing the D/P metagame needs is more things with Draco Meteor and no 100% counter (as far as that exists in D/P anyway). The threat list is big enough as it is.
I made a topic about this long ago, at the time we first started to discuss tiers of D/P.
Anyway:
People say that they've got incredible typing. I don't see weakness to bug, darkness, dragon and ice as incredible typing: they're all incredibly common. Of course, they can strike first with their incredible 110 base speed, but hey, Choice Scarf exists. And everything that can take a hit and respond with a good, neutral STABed move will ruin them. Metagross, Lickylicky, Choice-banded Miltank, to name some. There's also some special-oriented guys who can take them, Like Gardevoir (the special defense allows she to take a Shadow Ball and then status them), Celebi (Calm Mind and Baton Pass at their face, or Leech Seed), Alakazam (Trick), PorygonZ/2.
Don't forget Salamence's 135 base atk. Choice Banding and Dragon Dancing is something that Latias can't do. Latios is, at best, mediocre at this. And, Intimidate > Levitate.
Anyway:
People say that they've got incredible typing. I don't see weakness to bug, darkness, dragon and ice as incredible typing: they're all incredibly common. Of course, they can strike first with their incredible 110 base speed, but hey, Choice Scarf exists. And everything that can take a hit and respond with a good, neutral STABed move will ruin them. Metagross, Lickylicky, Choice-banded Miltank, to name some. There's also some special-oriented guys who can take them, Like Gardevoir (the special defense allows she to take a Shadow Ball and then status them), Celebi (Calm Mind and Baton Pass at their face, or Leech Seed), Alakazam (Trick), PorygonZ/2.
Don't forget Salamence's 135 base atk. Choice Banding and Dragon Dancing is something that Latias can't do. Latios is, at best, mediocre at this. And, Intimidate > Levitate.
One of the extrordinarily few intelligent things posted at Marriland.Ekul Yenaved said:
I just got 68-81%. But you know Specsmence gets 61-72% with a CH and that Draco Meteor just has a 6.25% chance of scoring a crit, right?
Ok, just to prevent confusion. All calcs made with Specs/Souldew Latios, 31 DVs in SA, Modest.
Draco Meteor Vs Standard 148 HP / 252 Def / 104 SpA / 4 Spe Bold Bliss: Damage: 42.59% - 50.15%
Draco Meteor CRIT Vs 148 HP / 252 Def / 104 SpA / 4 Spe Bold Bliss: Damage: 85.32% - 100.29%
Draco Meteor Vs 252 Sdef/HP Calm Bliss: Damage: 31.23% - 36.69%
Draco Meteor CRIT Vs 252 Sdef/HP Calm Bliss: Damage: 62.32% - 73.39%
Draco Meteor Vs Standard 148 HP / 252 Def / 104 SpA / 4 Spe Bold Bliss: Damage: 42.59% - 50.15%
Draco Meteor CRIT Vs 148 HP / 252 Def / 104 SpA / 4 Spe Bold Bliss: Damage: 85.32% - 100.29%
Draco Meteor Vs 252 Sdef/HP Calm Bliss: Damage: 31.23% - 36.69%
Draco Meteor CRIT Vs 252 Sdef/HP Calm Bliss: Damage: 62.32% - 73.39%
Yeah, let's rely on crits!
Seriously guys.
Anyways, some calcs for the SpecsLatios I'll be using if he makes it into OU:
Max SAttk, neutral nature, SpecsLati HP Ground on max HP/SDef +SDef Registeel: 34.62% - 40.93%
Same Latios, using HP Ground on max HP/SDef +SDef Empoleon: 44.62% - 52.42%
Same Latios, using Thunderbolt on max HP/SDef +SDef Empoleon: 60.22% - 70.97%
Same Latios, using HP Ground on max HP/no SDef Heatran: OHKO
Same Latios, using HP Ground on max HP/no SDef Metagross: 69.51% - 81.59%
Same Latios, using Draco Meteor on max HP/no SDef Tyranitar, in the sand: 57.18% - 67.08% (29.21% - 34.41% after SAttk drop)
Same Latios, using HP Ground on the same Tyranitar in the sand: 38.86% - 45.79%
Same Latios, using Draco Meteor on 60 HP/no SDef Tyranitar in the sand: 65.17% - 76.69% (33.15% - 39.04% after SAttk drop)
Same Latios, using HP Ground on the same Tyranitar in the sand: 44.10% - 51.97%
Shuckle... can go burn in hell somewhere or get Surfed or something because I don't feel like testing it.
Seriously guys.
Anyways, some calcs for the SpecsLatios I'll be using if he makes it into OU:
Max SAttk, neutral nature, SpecsLati HP Ground on max HP/SDef +SDef Registeel: 34.62% - 40.93%
Same Latios, using HP Ground on max HP/SDef +SDef Empoleon: 44.62% - 52.42%
Same Latios, using Thunderbolt on max HP/SDef +SDef Empoleon: 60.22% - 70.97%
Same Latios, using HP Ground on max HP/no SDef Heatran: OHKO
Same Latios, using HP Ground on max HP/no SDef Metagross: 69.51% - 81.59%
Same Latios, using Draco Meteor on max HP/no SDef Tyranitar, in the sand: 57.18% - 67.08% (29.21% - 34.41% after SAttk drop)
Same Latios, using HP Ground on the same Tyranitar in the sand: 38.86% - 45.79%
Same Latios, using Draco Meteor on 60 HP/no SDef Tyranitar in the sand: 65.17% - 76.69% (33.15% - 39.04% after SAttk drop)
Same Latios, using HP Ground on the same Tyranitar in the sand: 44.10% - 51.97%
Shuckle... can go burn in hell somewhere or get Surfed or something because I don't feel like testing it.
Is it plausible to think of Latios and Latias as different? instead of grouping them together as Lati@s?
Tyranitar is difficult to stop once it has a few DD's under it's belt.
Garchomp is difficult to stop once it has a few SD's under it's belt.
Salamence is difficult to stop once it has a few DD's under it's belt.
(I don't know if this is exactly the best thing to compare Latias to, but I hope you can understand my point). Can anyone deny that the pokemon I listed are hard to stop after they got a few boosts under their belt?
Blissey is not the only answer to a special attacker. Suicune will beat Blissey with CM/Rest and Jirachi will beat Blissey with CM/Wish. I'm not comparing their sweeping potential, I'm just stating the fact that they can indeed beat Blissey 1 on 1. (Unless of course they're running a CM set theirselves).
Latias special attack is only equal to Salamence. Latias is also restricted to only attacking on the special side of things while both Latios and Salamence are not. Latias may have a better movepool than Salamence but if it's a specs set, Blissey can wall it. A CM set (This is sounding a bit vauge because I don't know what is going to counter Latias exactly because they haven't been tested) Can be warded off with strong physical attackers like Tyranitar, Metagross, Heracross, and Weavile. Those are just some of the counters that I can think of. I'm sure that there would be alot more if we tested it in the OU environment.
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Now I'm 100% for both Latias and Latios to be tested but if one is indeed more threating than the other should both be banned? I'm only saying that because many of that people seem to be grouping Lati@s together, they may be similar but they're different too.
Latias has an amazing movepool, no one can deny that but the problem with that set is that with the offensive meta that is DP it could have trouble setting up.
Tyranitar is difficult to stop once it has a few DD's under it's belt.
Garchomp is difficult to stop once it has a few SD's under it's belt.
Salamence is difficult to stop once it has a few DD's under it's belt.
(I don't know if this is exactly the best thing to compare Latias to, but I hope you can understand my point). Can anyone deny that the pokemon I listed are hard to stop after they got a few boosts under their belt?
Blissey is not the only answer to a special attacker. Suicune will beat Blissey with CM/Rest and Jirachi will beat Blissey with CM/Wish. I'm not comparing their sweeping potential, I'm just stating the fact that they can indeed beat Blissey 1 on 1. (Unless of course they're running a CM set theirselves).
I agree that Latias can indeed give lots of beneficial things to a team. Like working as a sort of a special wall with more offense than usual at the cost of being weak to powerful physical Dark and Bug type moves.
Latias special attack is only equal to Salamence. Latias is also restricted to only attacking on the special side of things while both Latios and Salamence are not. Latias may have a better movepool than Salamence but if it's a specs set, Blissey can wall it. A CM set (This is sounding a bit vauge because I don't know what is going to counter Latias exactly because they haven't been tested) Can be warded off with strong physical attackers like Tyranitar, Metagross, Heracross, and Weavile. Those are just some of the counters that I can think of. I'm sure that there would be alot more if we tested it in the OU environment.
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Now I'm 100% for both Latias and Latios to be tested but if one is indeed more threating than the other should both be banned? I'm only saying that because many of that people seem to be grouping Lati@s together, they may be similar but they're different too.
Yeah, I don't see any typing as great either if I just name their weaknesses and don't look at the resistances. Does Water, Fire, Grass, Electric, Psychic, Fighting + Ground immunity not compensate for all of these easily? Also, I hope you are seriously not implying any of these Normals is countering Lati@s, lol. Their defense versus something like a Calm Minded or Choice Specsed Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor can only be called mediocre on a good day. I'm too lazy to calculate right now but I'm willing to bet Lati@s can take out both Miltank and Lickilicky if they try to switch in before they can even act. Naming Alakazam and PorygonZ as counters, switchins or anything to Lati@s is ridiculous as it is, and probably matters for exactly 0% when trying to determine whether they're uber or not.
I'm pretty sure Rayquaza's Air Lock is worse than Intimidate, Natural Cure and Levitate, and yet he is uber while the Dragons bearing the other traits are not (Altaria is far below). It sounds lame and yet, just because one Pokemon has a trait that another, lower placed Pokemon doesn't, does not make the other that lower tier too. Not to mention Levitate > Intimidate is pretty arguable...Levitate makes everything Ground-based do 0 damage, Intimidate makes everything physical do ~75% damage. You're dealing with apples and oranges, so one can't be better than the other as simple as that.
EDIT:
Regarding the differences between Latias and Latios, I already took my stance on this. There is supposed to be a theoretical gap between uber and OU and it's supposed to be pretty large. No way that is limited to a few trivial differences such as Wish vs Dragon Dance, Luster Purge vs Mist Ball, 10-20 more in offensive instead of defensive, etc.
Didn't I already go over this?
Who carries Dragon attacks? Umm, Dragons. Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite. (And, you know, other Lati@s if they were allowed.) Three pokémon. Rare attack type and completely predictable. Nobody else uses them.
Bug? Okay, Heracross and Yanmega. And... Rhyperior? Scizor? A 20% damage U-Turn coming from Jirachi? Who's carrying all these Bug attacks?
Dark, okay. Yeah, Pursuit is a problem coming from T-Tar and Weavile. They have the defenses to absorb non-STAB Pursuits fairly well and the aforementioned two pokémon are really the only users of any other Dark attacks as well (Crunch and Night SLash, respectively). Maybe an odd Lucario.
You forgot Ghost, but that's okay because I'm reminding you of it now. Of course, the only dangerous Ghost user is Gengar who only ties them in Speed, can't switch in and will just get his ass blasted by them anyway even if he rips off an impressive 60% of their health in the process.
That leaves what, Ice? Yeah, Ice is common. Ice Beam is to special attacks as Earthquake is to physical attacks. So what? Ask Celebi or Togekiss how much they give a crap about Starmie Ice Beaming them repeatedly for 30% of their health. Ice Beam is very seldom STAB and Lati@s has more than enough Sdf, and lack of a 4x weakness, to take those hits with ease. Just watch for the freeze. ;/
And, as Mekkah already stated, they have a strong set of resistances. Water/Electric/Fighting/Ground resists are quite strong and they're probably the best switch-in to Heatran next to Gyarados. They have countless opportunities to switch in.
At face value, but keeping the Ground immunity signiture of the Flying-type without exposing themselves to its type weaknesses (namely, 4x Ice weakness) is a pretty good deal.
They're not different enough to warrant placing them in different tiers, if that's what you mean. The stat difference is minor and they have almost the same movepool, the one difference being Latios can be a decent DDer while Latias can be a Wish supporter.
You know, earlier in this thread, I was more against Lati@s in standard play. That was, of course, just "theorymon."
After playing approximately 15 battles with different people (Brawley was like 4 of them though >_>), and using different teams myself, I have to say that they honestly aren't that great.
Are they good? Of course. However, the huge problem between calling Latias a fast, harder, Specsmence is that if being a special attacker was all that Salamence could do, it wouldn't be that great in the first place.
What makes Salamence so fearsome is the chance that you're switching your Blissey into a Life Orbed Brick Break. With Lati@s, you know exactly what you are getting.
Also...don't mention Dragon Dance lol, it is really the 3rd best option on Latios, and it is not very effective. Granted, this isn't any solid academic evidence against it, but in the battles I've had...Latios just hasn't been able to set it up effectively.
I know Maniac is going to be keeping logs in his tourny, but just for a practical showing of how they, how about people start posting links to logs in this topic?
It would be a good way to judge how effective they are in practice instead of arguing if typing weaknesses trump resistances, and the like.
After playing approximately 15 battles with different people (Brawley was like 4 of them though >_>), and using different teams myself, I have to say that they honestly aren't that great.
Are they good? Of course. However, the huge problem between calling Latias a fast, harder, Specsmence is that if being a special attacker was all that Salamence could do, it wouldn't be that great in the first place.
What makes Salamence so fearsome is the chance that you're switching your Blissey into a Life Orbed Brick Break. With Lati@s, you know exactly what you are getting.
Also...don't mention Dragon Dance lol, it is really the 3rd best option on Latios, and it is not very effective. Granted, this isn't any solid academic evidence against it, but in the battles I've had...Latios just hasn't been able to set it up effectively.
I know Maniac is going to be keeping logs in his tourny, but just for a practical showing of how they, how about people start posting links to logs in this topic?
It would be a good way to judge how effective they are in practice instead of arguing if typing weaknesses trump resistances, and the like.
The stat differences are minor however from a offensive aspect:
130 SpAtk vs 110 SpAtk, one of which is matched by a pokemon that is already used in the OU Metagame. Could that extra 20 base in SpAtk put Latios over Latias? Perhaps.
Also if they're so comparable and with testing the both of them combined (Both used on the same team) seem to be to powerful. I do not think a Lati like species clause would be a ludicrous idea to bring forth (1 Lati per team).
<.< Oh but I don't even know why I suggested such a thing I know people would be against such a clause.
No offense, but isn't the fact that we've been having so many discussions with so many 'borderline' Pokemon (Manaphy, Lati@s, and to some extent Celebi/Jirachi) prove that the gap isn't as large as we would like? Are we as a whole too ignorant about how strong these Pokemon are that we can't choose which tier to put them in without vigorous testing?
Either way, I'm sure the majority of people are in favor of said testing.
Since Mekkah demanded backup, I decided to explain myself further. At first glance, we see Latios' amazing stats and movepool. And Jumpman's calculations. However, theory doesn't explain everything. Tests need to be done to ensure that one point is correct. However, with all of these calculations and overratedness, we have to compare Latios with some other things. Perhaps these things may be somewhat comparable to Latios, not in their movepool or stats, but their power and hype. This post may sound idiotic to some, but it may be good enough to get my point accross.
What do we see everyday in the OU metagame? Tyranitar, Garchomp, TTar, Chomp and over and over. Stall died in OU, and these pokemon are technically uncounterable. CBChomp 2/0HKOs everything in the game, and TTar sets up the storm and help it sweep. Garchomp packs ridiculously powerful moves and can actually go mixed. This is something Latios is practically incapable of..at least without dying, since it needs to boost to beat up Blissey. Well whatever it is, I'm just going to list the counters to some of the pokemon that already exist in OU.
Garchomp: Prediction. Nothing walls CBChomp except for maybe Hippowdon, who gets 2HKOed by Outrage is just one Spikes is on the opponent's field. Hippowdon also risks itself switching into Chain or SD Chomp. Subchomp gets walled by nothing except for random HP Ice Bronzongs and Skarmory. Skarmory and Zong also risks getting blasted by Chain Chomp...or any Garchomps with fire Blast. Cresselia counters Chain Chomp fairly easily, but Tyranitar destroys its existence with Pursuit. People generally never carry a Garchomp without a TTar. That means there is no reliable way of killing this thing without either losing a lot of health or revenge killing. Yet even with all of these factors, it remains in OU
Tyranitar: Technically, nothing . Hippowdon can get Ice Beamed, and so does Gliscor. Pert and Rhy doesn't like CBCrunch, EQ (for Rhy) and the Specs set. What's more annoying about Tar is that it can Pursuit stuff down. A lot of stuff hates staying in against TTar (Cress, mainly), and a decent amount of Chomp stoppers lose to it (Cress, Starmie, Slowbro). Tar is even more unpredictable than Chomp, but is less dangerous when its set is figured ou than Chomp. TTar can also switch in on a lot of suff with its massive defenses, despite the numerous weaknesses. The Fighting types are the closest things to TTar counter, and they don't like CB Quake that much...or Specs Thunderbolt.
Now to Latios: Latios also packs a nice movepool, but it's not as dangerous as people think. DDset is walled by Skarmory, Forry (Gryo Ball), Zong (who's decent SD can also let it take Draco Meteor). Meta takes Latios with ease, even if it means nearly dying from a DD Earthquake (but still, it survived!). Blissey can scout for its set and land a Thunder Wave, hopefully crippling it. Specs set gets loled by Bliss and some Registeels and Metagrosses with nice prediction (Registeel can take one Specs HP Fire and quickly flee to something like Aerodactyl, or even more dangerous, Tyranitar. Tyranitar's massive Special Defense allow it to survive 3 Specs Draco Meteor with the right EVs (SA drops counted). Tyranitar is the thing that spells doom to Latios f you predict incorrectly with the Eon. With Max HP, it survives a DD LO EQ with ease, and Crunches it back to death. It can even Pursuit those thinking they can escape. As far as revenge killing goes, Heracross and Weavile are viable choices. Latios can be revenge killed, unlike TTar or Chomp (Tar can survive a CBed Quake from Dugtrio, and Chomp can only be revenge killed when it's stuck on Outrage). Well, whatever it is, I find Latios to have slightly more definite counters than the previous two, mainly because they can be Pursuited, which means latios needs to be extra careful or else it dies.
Also, Maniaclyrasist did some tests with Latios and he tells me it is not as scary as people think.
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