I would suggest putting Ralts in "Smog Frog Rank," since it's not anywhere else on here.
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Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)
- Thread starter Fiend
- Start date
- Status
Not all Pokémon need to be ranked, and any Pokémon not listed is assumed to be smog frog.
The ban of Porygon and Cutiefly, the prevalence of many birds like Vullaby and Rufflet, the prevalence of Staryu, the decline of Spritzee and the rareness of Guts Timburr are all facts that improve the effectiveness of Chinchou. In partcular the Choice Scarf set because it is faster than Diglett, is a wonderful revenge
killer and can also clean late game. It also has some fun options on slower sets like Icy wind and even Sucker Punch. With Porygon and Cutiefly gone, the list of its counters is reduced. The most common counters are bulky grasses and Munchlax. So, in combination with a Vullaby, it's so hard to beat. But, even if it doesn't have so many counters, it has many checks and there are so many ways to beat a choice locked Chinchou. Scarf Mienfoo outspeeds Chinchou and can kill it, if it is locked into Volt Switch, diglett can freely switch into, and CM Gothita can setup on a scarf Chinchou locked into any move other than Volt Switch. That is why i don't think it can be higher than the A rank.
killer and can also clean late game. It also has some fun options on slower sets like Icy wind and even Sucker Punch. With Porygon and Cutiefly gone, the list of its counters is reduced. The most common counters are bulky grasses and Munchlax. So, in combination with a Vullaby, it's so hard to beat. But, even if it doesn't have so many counters, it has many checks and there are so many ways to beat a choice locked Chinchou. Scarf Mienfoo outspeeds Chinchou and can kill it, if it is locked into Volt Switch, diglett can freely switch into, and CM Gothita can setup on a scarf Chinchou locked into any move other than Volt Switch. That is why i don't think it can be higher than the A rank.
Tirtouga to A- / A rank. Sturdy Flying resists are more vital than ever, and with the right EVs it can counter both Scarf Rufflet and Life Orb Doduo. While it's sturdy shell smash set isn't as good as it was in XY people always forget that it can also run a great solid rock shell smash set - it's typing gives it more space to set up than Shellder. If you don't mind no priority it can run Zen Headbutt to kill Mienfoo and with some prior damage Timburr at +2.
Have people got over the Rufflet hype yet?
Seriously. Rufflet is so good on paper, and has such a powerful Brave Bird and decent coverage with Superpower, alongside U-turn which makes it stand out from Doduo. But it's so unreliable, Hustle is such a bad ability. When using Rufflet, you will always get to a point where you need to land your hit, and when 1 in 5 moves misses, you will almost always miss once per game, possibly twice. The thing with Rufflet is that these misses are so costly to it, (more costly than Staryu missing Hydro and other similar things) because if it misses U-turn, then it's in such an unfavourable matchup. U-turn is probably the worst move to miss, I can think of, imagine if you have scarf rufflet in vs sashbra, and you need to rely on the uturn to hit so you can take it out with prio. It's literally just 20% chance to lose
Often because of Rufflet's good power, the opponent will be in a situation where they are sacking a mon to Rufflet. If Rufflet misses when the opponent is simply just sacking something, the mon that was going to be sacked will just hit it hard back. Rufflet might seem like a good Pokemon, but often it just gives you a 20% chance to lose games. You can't rely on Rufflet like you need to with revenge killers. move it down to B
I made a team with Scarf Rufflet, I changed it to Guts Taillow and have 0 regrets despite no Fight coverage
Seriously. Rufflet is so good on paper, and has such a powerful Brave Bird and decent coverage with Superpower, alongside U-turn which makes it stand out from Doduo. But it's so unreliable, Hustle is such a bad ability. When using Rufflet, you will always get to a point where you need to land your hit, and when 1 in 5 moves misses, you will almost always miss once per game, possibly twice. The thing with Rufflet is that these misses are so costly to it, (more costly than Staryu missing Hydro and other similar things) because if it misses U-turn, then it's in such an unfavourable matchup. U-turn is probably the worst move to miss, I can think of, imagine if you have scarf rufflet in vs sashbra, and you need to rely on the uturn to hit so you can take it out with prio. It's literally just 20% chance to lose
Often because of Rufflet's good power, the opponent will be in a situation where they are sacking a mon to Rufflet. If Rufflet misses when the opponent is simply just sacking something, the mon that was going to be sacked will just hit it hard back. Rufflet might seem like a good Pokemon, but often it just gives you a 20% chance to lose games. You can't rely on Rufflet like you need to with revenge killers. move it down to B
I made a team with Scarf Rufflet, I changed it to Guts Taillow and have 0 regrets despite no Fight coverage
Wynaut to B / B+ Rank.
With Gothita now banned, it's one of only 2 viable trappers in the metagame. With Counter and Mirror Coat it can KO so much, and with that massive HP stat it takes neutral and resisted hits like a champion. Encore can give your teammates space to set up, and it can use it in combination with Destiny Bond to put your opponent in a very tricky situation. If you use Destiny Bond your opponent has a tough choice - kill Wynaut at the cost of one of their teammates, or use a status move and risk getting locked into Encore. When Gothita got banned I put Wynaut on my team and it never fails to earn its keep - it nearly always gets at least one kill, and grants a load of set up opportunities with Encore. Sadly I don't have any replays, but give it a shot, it won't dissapoint you.
With Gothita now banned, it's one of only 2 viable trappers in the metagame. With Counter and Mirror Coat it can KO so much, and with that massive HP stat it takes neutral and resisted hits like a champion. Encore can give your teammates space to set up, and it can use it in combination with Destiny Bond to put your opponent in a very tricky situation. If you use Destiny Bond your opponent has a tough choice - kill Wynaut at the cost of one of their teammates, or use a status move and risk getting locked into Encore. When Gothita got banned I put Wynaut on my team and it never fails to earn its keep - it nearly always gets at least one kill, and grants a load of set up opportunities with Encore. Sadly I don't have any replays, but give it a shot, it won't dissapoint you.
A bit of cleanup should be done here with the recent metagame shifts, in my opinion. Not a lot to say on most of these...if someone objects I can post more but I think this should explain the reasoning well enough!
Munchlax is the no-brainer, in my opinion. The niche that brought it up to A rank was checking the two most dominant special attackers in the metagame, both of which are now banned. With the Gothita ban, Fighting-type Pokemon are even more splashable, which reduces Munchlax's niche even more. The offensive nature of the metagame means that Munchlax doesn't have a place on most teams anymore. However, it still can act as a check to the now-popular Foongus, a blanket check to special attackers in general, and can Pursuit trap stuff like Abra and Gastly (kind of), so its not useless...I'd say around B/B+ seems about right.
Foongus was one of the Pokemon most hampered by Gothita's presence in the metagame, as it couldn't really be expected to serve as a check to Fighting- and Water-types when it was so easily switched into and trapped. With the Gothita ban, Foongus can resume its old tricks. It makes a fantastic role compression Pokemon and pivot, and the Pokemon it checks seem to be more prevalent than ever before. There's a lot more to say on this one, but unless someone objects to this nom, I'm going to assume you've seen it in action. Worthy of A+.
Spritzee is the other major benefactor of the Gothita ban, and can now resume its role from most of last gen of being one of the hardest Fighting checks there is. With the rising popularity of the Fighting-type right now, Spritzee should rise accordingly. It also is a good general answer to Vullaby (as much as anything can be a general answer to Vullaby), and a good blanket check to a chunk of the metagame. It still has issues with momentum in a fast-paced metagame, though, so I'd say A- would be a good place for it.
Scraggy was significantly hurt by the latest metagame shift. It lost its single best partner with the departure of Gothita from the metagame, especially because this has brought the viability and usage of its checks up. Spritzee, Foongus, and Mareanie are all far better without Gothita in the metagame, and tend to appear on more teams. Other Fighting-types are also up, which both check Scraggy and pressure it for a teamslot. Its not a bad Pokemon or a bad sweeper...it just takes more support to use effectively. I'd say B+ is a good rank for it.
Aipom is a super cool Pokemon right now, and I feel like the pressure it puts on opposing teams is often underestimated. It makes super cool cores which wear down the common checks to Flying-types like Doduo and Vullaby, and overall, its coverage makes it nearly impossible to switch into. It also effectively takes on the entire metagame 1v1 except really fat mons. I think it should be moved up to at least B+.
I'm agreeing with Rowan on Rufflett. It hits hard and stuff, but it just can't be expected to perform either a wallbreaking or a sweeping role reliably when it so often faces costly misses. I'd say B+, maybe B would be a good home for it - it still hits like a truck, you just need a little Italian luck.
Lastly, and probably most controversially, I'd like to bring up Staryu for S rank. Staryu is essentially the only reliable rapid spinner in LC right now, which makes it essentially necessary on a huge variety of teams. The fact is that it is very easy to set hazards in the metagame at the moment, and Staryu is the only form of removal that doesn't lose momentum. It is certainly able to support a team well while spinning thanks to Scald and Recover. However, it can flip its supporting role on its head when need be and run a Life Orb set, turning it into a fast, powerful attacker with wide coverage thats difficult to switch into. Staryu's ability to perform a vital role better than anything else in the metagame while fitting a variety of team types, from the bulky to the more offensive, should earn it a spot in S Rank.
Munchlax is the no-brainer, in my opinion. The niche that brought it up to A rank was checking the two most dominant special attackers in the metagame, both of which are now banned. With the Gothita ban, Fighting-type Pokemon are even more splashable, which reduces Munchlax's niche even more. The offensive nature of the metagame means that Munchlax doesn't have a place on most teams anymore. However, it still can act as a check to the now-popular Foongus, a blanket check to special attackers in general, and can Pursuit trap stuff like Abra and Gastly (kind of), so its not useless...I'd say around B/B+ seems about right.
Foongus was one of the Pokemon most hampered by Gothita's presence in the metagame, as it couldn't really be expected to serve as a check to Fighting- and Water-types when it was so easily switched into and trapped. With the Gothita ban, Foongus can resume its old tricks. It makes a fantastic role compression Pokemon and pivot, and the Pokemon it checks seem to be more prevalent than ever before. There's a lot more to say on this one, but unless someone objects to this nom, I'm going to assume you've seen it in action. Worthy of A+.
Spritzee is the other major benefactor of the Gothita ban, and can now resume its role from most of last gen of being one of the hardest Fighting checks there is. With the rising popularity of the Fighting-type right now, Spritzee should rise accordingly. It also is a good general answer to Vullaby (as much as anything can be a general answer to Vullaby), and a good blanket check to a chunk of the metagame. It still has issues with momentum in a fast-paced metagame, though, so I'd say A- would be a good place for it.
Scraggy was significantly hurt by the latest metagame shift. It lost its single best partner with the departure of Gothita from the metagame, especially because this has brought the viability and usage of its checks up. Spritzee, Foongus, and Mareanie are all far better without Gothita in the metagame, and tend to appear on more teams. Other Fighting-types are also up, which both check Scraggy and pressure it for a teamslot. Its not a bad Pokemon or a bad sweeper...it just takes more support to use effectively. I'd say B+ is a good rank for it.
Aipom is a super cool Pokemon right now, and I feel like the pressure it puts on opposing teams is often underestimated. It makes super cool cores which wear down the common checks to Flying-types like Doduo and Vullaby, and overall, its coverage makes it nearly impossible to switch into. It also effectively takes on the entire metagame 1v1 except really fat mons. I think it should be moved up to at least B+.
I'm agreeing with Rowan on Rufflett. It hits hard and stuff, but it just can't be expected to perform either a wallbreaking or a sweeping role reliably when it so often faces costly misses. I'd say B+, maybe B would be a good home for it - it still hits like a truck, you just need a little Italian luck.
Lastly, and probably most controversially, I'd like to bring up Staryu for S rank. Staryu is essentially the only reliable rapid spinner in LC right now, which makes it essentially necessary on a huge variety of teams. The fact is that it is very easy to set hazards in the metagame at the moment, and Staryu is the only form of removal that doesn't lose momentum. It is certainly able to support a team well while spinning thanks to Scald and Recover. However, it can flip its supporting role on its head when need be and run a Life Orb set, turning it into a fast, powerful attacker with wide coverage thats difficult to switch into. Staryu's ability to perform a vital role better than anything else in the metagame while fitting a variety of team types, from the bulky to the more offensive, should earn it a spot in S Rank.
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@nineage said:
Lastly, and probably most controversially, I'd like to bring up Staryu for S rank. Staryu is essentially the only reliable rapid spinner in LC right now...
See how unhappy you made him?
Mold Breaker Drilbur seems as strong as ever in my book. Berry Juice and Eviolite both do really different things for your time, and you can get away with Rock Slide + EQ so you are still having the opportunity to run SR if your team needs it. 17 speed is amazing, trashing Dwebble is amazing, and even though Mudbray exists not every team wants a brick wall Ground-type more than a high utility Ground-type. No issues with Staryu rising to S, but Drilbur should probably jump to A- if that's the case, especially given that it currently sits on par with Bellsprout, who is limited in its scope to just being a weather sweeper while Dilly has additional uses.
Driler is completely walled by pump, the most common spin blocker. And if there's a pump on the team it can't do it's job. Whereas analytic star 2hkoes pump with ice beam guaranteed. I agree with where Driler is, however still a solid mon. Without pump EQ hits SO hard and having rocks+spin is nice. However in my opinion it is not near as reliable as star
I think Alolan Grimer is deserving of a move up into A-. Grimer-A is the premier check to a variety of threatening offensive pokemon like Abra, Gastly, and Snivy. It is also able to check some of the more dangerous aspects of sun such as Bellsprout and Bulbasaur. Furthermore, Grimer-A is able to use its good spdef to tank hits from NP Vullaby, the premier sweeper of the tier if I may say that. It is able to tank a +2 Air slash and do heavy damage (Ohkoing if rocks and the def drop) with Gunk Shot. Buts its utility comes from more than just checking key threats; Grimer is one of the tier's best knock off spammers. Poison touch Knock offs are painful to try and deal with effectively, leaving only Pawniard as a solid non-fearing check. Pursuit trapping along with priority are the icing on the cake and make Grimer-a deserve a rise to A rank. Its only real flaw, and I won't try to hide that it is indeed a major flaw, is its vulnerability to Diglett. Fortunately, Diglett can't switch on any of Grimer's moves so its only coming in after a kill or a hot double switch. (or u dumb enough to switch Grimer on a slow u-turn)
Another thing that I think deserves a rise is Alolan-Vulpix because I think she is majorly overlooked. 8 turns of Aurora Veil is seriously insane. Literally any offensive or hyper offensive team can wreck houses when they have so much space to set up. It's one of those things where you really don't realize how powerful it can be until you see it in action. Vulpix is also fast enough to reliably set it at least once in a game, which is all an offensive team really needs. I've been running something like Aurora Veil/Blizzard/Moonblast/Freeze-Dry. I'm rambling at this point but I implore you all to try this beast out and then come back because it is very easy to dismiss this without realizing its effectiveness.
Tl;dr Grimer much check, strong pursuit, poison touch knock off rawr
Vulpix aurora veil 8 turns stronk :3
Just on the topic of staryu moving up to S and being the only reliable spinner, I would say that shellder is probably equally reliable as a spinner if not better in some ways because it's impossible to spinblock while staryu has to run LO to get through pumpkaboo. Sure staryu gets a lot more speed letting you pull of suicide spins more but it's bulk is much worse (at least on the physical side) than shellder who with eviolite and stronger offensive moves has to be a solid check to stuff like physical vullaby. On top of this, shellder handles ferroseed much better than staryu does which is a big deal imo as ferro is probably the best hazard setter in the tier. But yeah, spin shellder is a good hybrid offensive mon. I've been running smash, spear, surf and spin and missing out on rock blast isn't so bad if you have a grass type or chinchou or w.e to beat other star and opposing chou. Point being, I think shellder is just as good if not better than staryu atm.
Also, on grimer-A up to A-, I think grimer-a is a funny one because while stab knock off and poison touch is great and all, it's still such a match-up reliant mon. The meta is definitely much more physically inclined atm and grimer just doesn't really switch into any physical attackers and the most common special attackers other than abra are chinchou and staryu which it doesn't switch into either. The fact that mudbray, diglett and timburr (r.i.p poison touch knock off) are prominent atm as well as really strong moves like scarfoo HJK and supersonic strike vullaby which both OHKO berry juice builds and that it's slow as balls doesn't really help its cause either. Tldr and all that, if they don't have abra, snivy or gastly, grimer-a just really struggles to pull its weight in a game.
Do agree on snubull moving up and rufflet moving down tho. Snubbull kicks a lot of ass atm being able to handle all vullaby variations with a more sp.def spread and being one of very few solid checks in the meta to scarf-foo and scraggy and yeah, rowan said it all on rufflet, but missing out on the 17+ speed tier is also a big deal I feel.
Also, on grimer-A up to A-, I think grimer-a is a funny one because while stab knock off and poison touch is great and all, it's still such a match-up reliant mon. The meta is definitely much more physically inclined atm and grimer just doesn't really switch into any physical attackers and the most common special attackers other than abra are chinchou and staryu which it doesn't switch into either. The fact that mudbray, diglett and timburr (r.i.p poison touch knock off) are prominent atm as well as really strong moves like scarfoo HJK and supersonic strike vullaby which both OHKO berry juice builds and that it's slow as balls doesn't really help its cause either. Tldr and all that, if they don't have abra, snivy or gastly, grimer-a just really struggles to pull its weight in a game.
Do agree on snubull moving up and rufflet moving down tho. Snubbull kicks a lot of ass atm being able to handle all vullaby variations with a more sp.def spread and being one of very few solid checks in the meta to scarf-foo and scraggy and yeah, rowan said it all on rufflet, but missing out on the 17+ speed tier is also a big deal I feel.
Abra: A -> A+
Since the Goth ban, Fighting-types have rose up in popularity, which creates a demand for checks & counters to them. One of the best checks to not just Fighting-types but most LC frail Pokemon or Psychic weak in general is Abra. Abra is no doubt LC's best cleaner, with incredible Special Attack, a Speed tier of 19 & immunity to entry hazards, status damage & Life Orb recoil in Magic Guard, it is able to come in & wipe out a mon from the battle, especially weakened ones, making it an awesome revenge killer. Even trying to switch out against Abra, the Pokemon switching in on one of Abras attacks will usually be 2HKO'd if they arent resistant to it. Abra is more than likely to gain a KO or two in a match, and with Fighting-types being more prevalent, Abra is sure to get more KOs. However, Abra isn't all the great revenge killer as I make it out to be, it's very frail so it cannot switch in on any attack, even resisted ones & almost dies to any hit if it doesn't hold a Sash. Even with living at one HP, Abra is susceptible to priority moves. Worst of all are Choice Scarf users who can deal damage with U-Turn & Volt Switch then leave it in range of a priority user. Abra is also weak to Pursuit, a great example of this & possibly the hardest counter to Abra is Grimer-Alola, who is immune to Psychic & can take the rest of Abra's movepool. However these flaws are just small hindrances when compared to Abra's massive pros.
In a way I'd almost compare Abra to Diglett, both are strong fast Pokemon that net KOs in a battle but are too frail to switch in on anything & have bulk like sandpaper.
Gummy
...three, smiles go for miles!
Vulpix-A: B- -> B
This has already been stated, but I think it's only fair. I find it weird that Surskit is in B despite literally only having 1 use, that being to set up Sticky Web, but Vulpix-A (whose function is also to set up a 'hazard') is lower. Obviously a way to fix this is to move Surskit down, but considering Vulpix-A's ability to support Sandshrew-A and set up 8 turns of dual screens/hail in a single turn is really useful. It also gets access to a 100%-accurate Blizzard without a turn of set-up, which is always nice.
This has already been stated, but I think it's only fair. I find it weird that Surskit is in B despite literally only having 1 use, that being to set up Sticky Web, but Vulpix-A (whose function is also to set up a 'hazard') is lower. Obviously a way to fix this is to move Surskit down, but considering Vulpix-A's ability to support Sandshrew-A and set up 8 turns of dual screens/hail in a single turn is really useful. It also gets access to a 100%-accurate Blizzard without a turn of set-up, which is always nice.
I'm proposing moving Smoochum from D to C or C-
Smoochum @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Forewarn
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Trick/Shadow Ball
Smoochum is a very underrated anti-meta pokemon at the moment. While most will say she's outclassed by Abra, she makes a niche for herself by having Ice STAB. Allowing her to come in and threaten significantly more prominent pokemon. Most notably Flying & Ground types.
240 SpA Smoochum Ice Beam vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 SpA Smoochum Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Rufflet: 30-36 (130.4 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Smoochum Ice Beam vs. 116 HP / 236+ SpD Mudbray: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
240 SpA Smoochum Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 180+ SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see Smoochum can cripple if not OHKO some of the most common ground and flying types in the meta. She can consistently OHKO NP Vullaby, Scarf Rufflet, and Mudbray & Hippopotas after their eviolites have been knocked off. She can also threaten & cripple common switch-ins such as Pawinard, Sandsrew-A, and Slowpoke with HP Fighting/Trick respectively. Smoochum also checks the Fighting, Grass, and Poison types that have infested the tier, giving her a distinct niche over Abra for teams that struggle with bird spam or bulky ground types.
Trubbish from C+ to B-
With the recent ban, Trubbish has gotten a little better. Here's why...
- With the ban of Gothita, fighting types such as mienfoo and timburr rose in viability. (crazy to think these two pokemon could be any more viable lol). Conveniently enough, trubbish consistently walls both of these threats throughout the match.
- When given the opportunity, Trubbish can set up spikes, and there are many opportunities when you can switch into the two best fighting types in the tier and stay healthy throughout the match.
- Gothita is gone, so now Trubbish is only trapped by diglett. If you have room, you can even bop diglett with seed bomb. However, there's rarely enough space for that.
Trubbish also has drawbacks keeping it from being any better than B-...
- Trubbish often finds itself using recycle more than setting up spikes and dealing chip damage.
- Trubbish is mediocre offensively, even if it has the coverage to make it bearable.
- Trubbish can still be trapped by diglett and it is depressing :(
- Trubbish has to run clear smog if it wants to beat bulk up timburrs, which is not very great considering it has 4mss.
EDIT: Sorry for any atrocious typos i'm fixing rn
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Why isn't Litten in the viabilty rankings? It has a great speed tier and boasts decent offense, has access to SD and Nasty Plot, and has decent coverage. Litten at least deserves D-Tier.
Gummy
...three, smiles go for miles!
Once Litten's HA gets released it'll definitely be at least D, but as of right now its miserably outclassed by literally every other fire type.
Hey guys, we know that you all love whatever mon you think is cool and worked well on low ladder and against your friends, but if you're going to make a nom that seems questionable to the rest of us, please provide more arguments than "I think it's underrated" and some calcs. I don't really care if Scarf Smoochum can OHKO birds, I want replays. I want evidence that this mon has succeeded in higher level play, or at the very least succeed in the job you expect it to do without being a complete burden otherwise. If you don't think you can produce high-level proof for your argument, ask someone for help.
I've admittedly let this thread become quite sloppy since it's now mostly random noms and very little discussion.
Post replays, support your arguments better, and try to discuss other noms first before providing your own.
I've admittedly let this thread become quite sloppy since it's now mostly random noms and very little discussion.
Post replays, support your arguments better, and try to discuss other noms first before providing your own.
I think Cottonee should move down from A-
It's completely unable to check some of the most threatening sweepers right now (Scraggy, Vullaby, Bellsprout). It's almost become standard to run Sludge Bomb on Diglett, rather than being a rare tech option. Pretty much every Staryu is using Ice Beam and the majority of Timburrs are running Ice Punch. It can't even check the new ground type very well because of Heavy Slam. So much of the meta has changed in unfavorable ways for Cottonee, it's really hard to justify putting it on a team. Going even further, Foongus, Alolan Grimer, and Flying-types are incredible right now and the addition of Mareanie didn't help. I'm not sure if it's correctly implemented yet, but Z-Moves also make Cottonee worse because of their interaction with Encore. I'd probably place it somewhere around mid-B.
did i do it right quote D:
It's completely unable to check some of the most threatening sweepers right now (Scraggy, Vullaby, Bellsprout). It's almost become standard to run Sludge Bomb on Diglett, rather than being a rare tech option. Pretty much every Staryu is using Ice Beam and the majority of Timburrs are running Ice Punch. It can't even check the new ground type very well because of Heavy Slam. So much of the meta has changed in unfavorable ways for Cottonee, it's really hard to justify putting it on a team. Going even further, Foongus, Alolan Grimer, and Flying-types are incredible right now and the addition of Mareanie didn't help. I'm not sure if it's correctly implemented yet, but Z-Moves also make Cottonee worse because of their interaction with Encore. I'd probably place it somewhere around mid-B.
did i do it right quote D:
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I still believe Phanpy should at least be moved out of Smog Frog, don't know where too but definitely bout of smog frog.
It's a pretty decent check to NP Vull being able to take a +2 DP, hit back with play rough and then finish with ice shard.
It's a bulky ground type with acess to priority and fairy type moves to check common fighting types such as scraggy and Timburr, giving it a niche against pokemon like Potas and Mudbray.
Stab EQ
Stealth rocks access
And to prove I'm not exactly bluffing the low on the ladder friend thing here, http://imgur.com/ZypJ3TV Which I reached using a team with phanpy in it.
EDit:
Some basic calcs
+2 156 Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Phanpy: 21-25 (77.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Phanpy Play Rough vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 20-28 (90.9 - 127.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It can take a +2 Scraggy's High jump kick and KO back after SR or a little bit of damage before hand.
+1 116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Phanpy: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Phanpy: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Phanpy Play Rough vs. +2 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So it does Okay against even a +2 Attack/Defense Timburr after SR, enough chip damage to RVK with pokemon such as Vull, Doduo, Rufflet, Sashbra (Very low chance to Ohko Tim and destroyed by DP+Mach.)
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 8-10 (42.1 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
It's a pretty decent check to NP Vull being able to take a +2 DP, hit back with play rough and then finish with ice shard.
It's a bulky ground type with acess to priority and fairy type moves to check common fighting types such as scraggy and Timburr, giving it a niche against pokemon like Potas and Mudbray.
Stab EQ
Stealth rocks access
And to prove I'm not exactly bluffing the low on the ladder friend thing here, http://imgur.com/ZypJ3TV Which I reached using a team with phanpy in it.
EDit:
Some basic calcs
+2 156 Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Phanpy: 21-25 (77.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Phanpy Play Rough vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 20-28 (90.9 - 127.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It can take a +2 Scraggy's High jump kick and KO back after SR or a little bit of damage before hand.
+1 116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Phanpy: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Phanpy: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Phanpy Play Rough vs. +2 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So it does Okay against even a +2 Attack/Defense Timburr after SR, enough chip damage to RVK with pokemon such as Vull, Doduo, Rufflet, Sashbra (Very low chance to Ohko Tim and destroyed by DP+Mach.)
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 8-10 (42.1 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
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Morelull C+ --> B-
Even though Morelull is kinda outclassed by Foongus as a spore user, I think it should be B- as one of the few spore users SUMO LC currently has. Also Morelull being a fairy type helps it for the common fighting types like: Mienfoo and Timburr. I hope there will be some Morelull hype for this meta.
Even though Morelull is kinda outclassed by Foongus as a spore user, I think it should be B- as one of the few spore users SUMO LC currently has. Also Morelull being a fairy type helps it for the common fighting types like: Mienfoo and Timburr. I hope there will be some Morelull hype for this meta.
Okay, I'm going to make this perfectly clear because people still aren't really getting the purpose of this thread. Which isn't really entirely their fault, but Quote made it very clear only a few posts ago. This is not a thread to talk about how good something is or is not. This is a discussion thread, where the main purpose is to sort the pokemon in our metagame based on how much they provide to a team, and what they can offer to the metagame. In these threads, we do not just post about a specific Pokemon of your choosing and then move it up or down based on what you said. We create a detailed and solid discussion of what the Pokemon does, what it provides to the metagame, and how useful it is to each team. After some discussion and points made by anyone that wants to contribute to the topic at hand, the LC Viability Ranking Council then moves the Pokemon up or down based on the points that were made in the thread. Stop posting nominations that are completely random, baseless, or irrelevant to the topic at hand, as it does not contribute to the discussion. This includes, but is absolutely not limited to, posts that are lacking basic detail, posts that lack depth, posts that have irrelevant details and posts that are not on topic of what we're currently discussing.
Now that all of that is out of the way, we are now discussing Cottonee. I believe Cottonee should stay in A- because it has never truly been a hard counter, but generally does one job that's needed of it fairly well. While the metagame has certainly been unfavorable to it, with the rise of more Ice Beams, Ground types beating it, and Poison types getting significantly better after the Gothita ban, I think it would be a mistake to misjudge how much Cottonee provides to a team at the current moment, and I believe the metagame has not developed enough for it make a drop into the B-ranks based the points that the points that were offered.
The post below this better be about Cottonee.
Now that all of that is out of the way, we are now discussing Cottonee. I believe Cottonee should stay in A- because it has never truly been a hard counter, but generally does one job that's needed of it fairly well. While the metagame has certainly been unfavorable to it, with the rise of more Ice Beams, Ground types beating it, and Poison types getting significantly better after the Gothita ban, I think it would be a mistake to misjudge how much Cottonee provides to a team at the current moment, and I believe the metagame has not developed enough for it make a drop into the B-ranks based the points that the points that were offered.
The post below this better be about Cottonee.
I feel that Cotonee is still effective, but at the same time it's much less so. Cotonee has always wanted to come in n resisted attacks and either encore or hit the switchin, and the rise of super effective coverage has made that a lot more of a 50-50. Since dark types are immune to prankster, it also can't encore in the most dangerous setup sweeper in the metagame and thus still needs teammates to do what should be its job, i.e., checking setup sweepers. Coverage also means that Cotonee is prone to being picked off if the opponent wins the 50-50. While it's certainly still usable and and does its job, I feel as though it simply doesn't do so quite well enough to deserve A- rank anymore.
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