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Not that my opinion means much, but I fail to see how Archen is that high on the viability list. I feel like its weaknesses outmatch its advantages. Going through all that Archen has to offer:
Pros:
-Great attack.
-Decent speed.
-Earthquake to counter half of its weaknesses.
-Multi roles that it can perform.
-Diverse movepool to counter a variety of threats.
Archen has one of the best attack stats in LC. With 70 base speed, it can start off a game strong with either U-Turn to get momentum going, or just Knock Off to hinder an opponents Eviolite lead. With access to Earthquake, you're hitting three out of its five weaknesses, all of which accounts for threats such as Chinchou, Pawniard, Ponyta, and more. You can either run it as a straight attacker, or attempt to setup rocks/defog with Eviolite. It also has access to a LARGE variety of moves, which further helps it counter multiple threats in LC. A typical moveset could include things like Acrobatics, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, U-Turn, Knock Off, Earthquake, Stealth Rock, Defog, and many more. If that wasn't enough, it's also got odd moves that it can also utilize such as Aqua Tail, Dragon Claw, Facade (for status invokers), Iron Tail, and Shadow Claw. While you almost never see any of those moves on Archen, the ability to have them makes it quite diverse and opens up a lot of creativity for sets (unless you copy/paste from LC dex lul).
Cons:
-Awful defenses (which Eviolite doesn't help).
-An ability that hinders it and nothing more.
-25% damage on stealth rock.
-Weak to five types.
-No (good) priority moves.
While it may have strong attack power, its more of a glass cannon than anything. You can hit hard with it, especially since its Acrobatics is stronger than Fletchlings, but it also gets hit very hard even by sub-par attacks. If Archen gets hit with Knock Off, its almost entirely done for thanks to its ability. Berry Juice is the only thing that keeps Archen at enough power to blow through a mon or two before it dies. Any other item on it isn't good. Despite what some people may think, Eviolite isn't going to help defenses that bad. If it gets hit with a super effective move from any of its five weaknesses, even with Eviolite, its going to be hit to below that 50% mark, thus rendering it dead in the water. The only sets you'd run Eviolite on Archen with are more defensive sets, which will pretty much mean you'll get a Stealth Rock/Defog in and then die the next turn. If you wanted to setup Stealth Rock on something that'll be good for one turn, just use Golett. At least its adorable compared to Archen. Between its ability that feeds off low health and awful defenses, it also doesn't help that Stealth Rock makes that road to killing Archen even easier. Even with Defog, Archen is already hit with 25% damage which makes it very easy to OHKO it. A number of things can make it very easy, thanks to Archen being weak to five different things. A STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Head, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Scald/Waterfall, and plenty of others can ruin Archen. It's not unlikely to see any of these either. There's also the fact that Archen's only priority move is quick attack. If it had Fletchlings ability to give it priority to its Acrobatics, it'd be god. However, it doesn't have anything like that, or even like Mienfoo's Fake Out or Pawniard's Sucker Punch. You have to rely on that 70 base speed, which while it isn't bad, is outspeedable by plenty of A/B rank.
Just from my own look of things, it really doesn't seem like Archen falls into A+ material. If it didn't have its ability weighing it down, maybe I'd feel a little differently, but I think that it just isn't suited for A+ with so many weaknesses to its usage.
>it's also got odd moves that it can also utilize such as Aqua Tail, Dragon Claw, Facade (for status invokers), Iron Tail, and Shadow Claw
No one is using these moves at all.
-ATail is covered by EQ (not hitting ground but most ground types are bopped by Arch's EQ)
-DClaw is pisspoor this gen bc of Fairies and hits one type for SE
-Facade is worthless for two reasons. 1) you dont want Archen to be statused at all, you avoid that at all costs. 2) it offers no coverage whatsoever
-Iron Tail when you have a STAB that slaps Fairies harder and a coverage move that deals with Rock types? no.
-SClaw is outdamaged by your STABs (Pump is ruined by itemless Acro, Gastly has no bulk)
>If you wanted to setup Stealth Rock on something that'll be good for one turn, just use Golett.
all of these get sr. out of all of these mons, if you're going to pick a useless SR mon, pick one that is less bulky than archen like bidoof/sandile. the comparison of archen to golett is a terrible one since they both have SAME defensive stats and share similiar weaknesses. golett isnt good for one turn if played properly. it has some longevity to it as well as a non hindering ability in iron fist. but i'll save that can of worms for later.
>The only sets you'd run Eviolite on Archen with are more defensive sets, which will pretty much mean you'll get a Stealth Rock/Defog in and then die the next turn.
Untrue, Evio can be slapped on an attacking set combined with Roost to bait a Knock Off in order to lose said item and give some temporary bulk. Then you'll be smashing through your opponent. Archen is kind of frail but it's not as frail as you think. Also most of it's sets can run Roost to mitigate the damage it receives from some of it's SE hits.
>You have to rely on that 70 base speed, which while it isn't bad, is outspeedable by plenty of A/B rank.
Assuming common speed choice (which is max for offensive and base for and no choice scarf on both ends
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Archen outspeeds so much of A/B though.
Other than that yeah Archen is totes frail and totes loses to a lot. Yet it's positives (checking birdspam, being a powerhouse, having a good defensive typing with great resists and an immunity, having sr + defog) outweigh some of it's negatives.
Cons:
-Awful defenses (which Eviolite doesn't help).
-An ability that hinders it and nothing more.
-25% damage on stealth rock.
-Weak to five types.
-No (good) priority moves.
I don't see how Archen has awful defenses. 55/45/45 paired with Eviolite is nothing short of impressive for a Pokemon with very good all around stats, also, if you mean that its defenses work toward bringing it down to Defeatist, no Archen is gonna run Eviolite without Roost, and any offensive Archen isn't going to be focusing on its defenses too much. Stealth Rocks isn't really too much of a problem to make it drop a whole 2 ranks, since so many good Pokemon have a Stealth Rock weakness, and getting rid of hazards in LC isn't too hard because of so many bulky / fast hazard removers (Vullaby, Staryu). Again, any offensive Archen isn't going to be worrying about its weaknesses, but more so about what it hits / how it supports the team, unless its Eviolite Roost, in which case it would only be used to get rid of rocks and beat things like Croagunk or Fletchling. No good priority moves doesn't really matter because of Archen's above average speed.
While it may have strong attack power, its more of a glass cannon than anything. You can hit hard with it, especially since its Acrobatics is stronger than Fletchlings, but it also gets hit very hard even by sub-par attacks. If Archen gets hit with Knock Off, its almost entirely done for thanks to its ability. Berry Juice is the only thing that keeps Archen at enough power to blow through a mon or two before it dies. Any other item on it isn't good.
Not really enjoying how you don't even bother to mention the amount of things Archen can nuke with its several offensive sets. Personally, I run a lot of itemless and fast support Archens, and they support my team a lot. Itemless Archen is a big threat in the Metagame, since not a lot of things can safely switch in, because Acrobatics + EQ + Knock Off hits the entire tier for a stupid amount of damage, and is almost impossible to switch into, even with one of its best counters, Hippopotas, taking a large amount of damage once its Eviolite has been knocked off. Also, nice one g.
>non bj archen isn't good
Yee
...If you wanted to setup Stealth Rock on something that'll be good for one turn, just use Golett. At least its adorable compared to Archen. Between its ability that feeds off low health and awful defenses, it also helps that Stealth Rock makes that road to killing Archen even easier. Even with Defog, Archen is already hit with 25% damage which makes it very easy to OHKO it. A number of things can make it very easy, thanks to Archen being weak to five different things. A STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Head, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Scald/Waterfall, and plenty of others can ruin Archen...
Except Golett is 100% worse than Archen in almost every observable aspect. As I stated earlier, hazard control is plentiful in LC. Offense has two good fast Spinners in Staryu and Drilbur, and bulkier teams have an even larger cache of options for bulky defoggers (e.g Vullaby or EVIOLITE ARCHEN ahHAHAHAHAH). Also, why do you keep saying that Archen is always OHKO'd be everything? Archen is used on offense and on defense to check certain things, such as Croagunk and Fletchling. Obviously Archen isn't put on a team to counter Snover ?_?. Also, good point. Archen is killed by STAB super effective moves, hahahahahhahahahahahha.
i'm unsure if this is sarcastic or not but i'll use this for a plug: USE EVIO ARCHEN PEOPLE. It bulks so many things that dont expect it, offers a better counter for SD Fletch, still hits hard, makes Roost and Defog more viable, etc. Dear Leader Rowan posted a set that's great, i'll c/p it here:
Archen @ Eviolite
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 100 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Defog / Stealth Rock / Knock Off / U-turn
- Roost
Fast Eviolite Archen is the new meta. I like it cos I like to have my Archen fast, but BJ is just worn down eventually especially taking ~30% every time fletch uses acrobatics. Fast Archen can Defog hazards, and it can lure in Pawniard and 2HKO with Earthquake easier. TBH, it's probably the best Archen set in the current meta.
Use it, U-turn fits with Volt-turn, Defog is helpful and beats on webs (Pawn doesn't want to come in on EQ archen), Rocks are good if you dont have them, Knock off the great wallbreaker of LC. trust me it works
A+ by the way i said some shit about it earlier but mainly i agree with Kek and Jac
You aren't getting "shit on," people are just disagreeing with you. If you really think Archen should be A and not A+, feel free to back it up and argue your point more.
Just because people disagreed with you doesnt mean you should quit... Not everyone will agree with you on a lot of things. You just need to have a more solid case when it comes to shit.
I'm nominating Gastly from A- -> A. I'm pretty sure that everyone knows how potent of a sweeper Gastly is at this point. Both of its STABs are great and it can just run Hidden Power Fighting to smack Pawniard, all while avoiding Sucker Punch with Substitute or taking a foe down with it via Destiny Bond. Even the SubDisable set is really good, allowing Gastly to defeat Fighting-types in 1v1 situations. Hell, it can run TrickSpecs or TrickScarf and combine its stellar offensive prowess with the ability to neutralize anything that may wall it. OR it can run VenoHex in tandem with an ally's Toxic Spikes to dish out some serious damage (though this is its most gimmicky set). It's also got a rather large coverage movepool, with options such as Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Thunderbolt, Psychic and SUCKER PUNCH :D
Also, Gastly is #8 in usage in the most recent usage statistics, beating out Pokemon such as Timburr which are higher than it currently. Goes to show how others realize Gastly's capabilities as well.
I could probably elaborate on this more, but I feel like the people reading this will have, at the least, a basic understanding of how Gastly kills everything.
Most people have been supporting Trubbish to B-, but I'd like to take it a step further and drop it to C+. It really is trash.
Also, I'd like to drop slowpoke to C+. It's typing is pretty bad, as it takes too much damage from knock off, u-turn and volt switch causing it to be hindered by so many top tier pokemon.
Most people have been supporting Trubbish to B-, but I'd like to take it a step further and drop it to C+. It really is trash.
Also, I'd like to drop slowpoke to C+. It's typing is pretty bad, as it takes too much damage from knock off, u-turn and volt switch causing it to be hindered by so many top tier pokemon.
Slowpoke is a great catch for balance/stall, thunder wave and its stabs or fire blast does a great job, and it can reach 24/16/14, which is great combined with regen. Sure its not off weak but nothing with knock off switches in and you have the bulk to take out pawn or mienfoo if it isn't needed anymore. It handles what I needs to like archen drilbur fletchling ponyta staryu and a boatload solely on that typing, but complemented by that great bulk, also regen which is what it is.
Stunky to B:
Stunky is already known for its ability to trap threats, and is arguably the most reliable trapper given its bulk and lack of 4x weaknesses. It's somewhat lacking in offensive presence, especially given it usually needs to invest in bulk or speed, which by the way, 63/47/41 bulk is not bad, and is actually similar to Archen's 55/45/45. Beyond its trapping role, it can support teammates through Defog, Memento, and Taunt, and can run some other interesting attacking options, most notably Play Rough and Flamethrower.
That's not to say it doesn't have its own problems. Generally it doesn't have enough room to heavily invest in offenses, but as far as trapping goes, that's not a problem, as its two main targets, Gastly and Abra, get completely murdered by any reasonably strong attack. It also lacks a physical Poison STAB, so if it wants to run dual stab, it is forced to go mixed. It also lacks recovery, which keeps it from doing too much else consistently beyond trapping.
Overall, Stunky is pretty solid and can offer quite a bit to its team, a good B mon in my opinion.
Spritzee to A+: Spritzee easily belongs in A+. First and foremost, Spritzee handles a lot of threats thanks to its bulk and Fairy-typing. This includes Mienfoo, Chinchou, Fletchling, Timburr, Drilbur without LO or SD, Pancham without Gunk Shot, Carvanha, Cottonee, Vullaby, Bunnelby, Zigzagoon, Scraggy, Riolu, Stunky without Sludge Bomb, and probably more that I've missed. It can fit into defensive cores easily thanks to its bulk and typing, as shown by the existence of the FerroSpritz and PorySpritz cores. It also offers a large 13 HP Wish to its teammates, and cleric support in Aromatherapy. Aroma Veil also helps it as a wall, by keeping it from being Taunted or Encored.
That stuff is great and all, but the real reason why Spritzee should be A+ lies in its ability to sweep. Calm Mind Spritzee wins games, plain and simple. Its physical bulk is tremendous, so it has the capability to set up on certain physical attackers, and pretty much any special attacker that lacks a super effective attack will be hard pressed to keep up with its boosts. A lot of stuff that keeps it from setting up can be eliminated by simple and effective trapping from the likes of Diglett or Gothita (can really only get poisons and ferroseed but w/e), or the use of lures. You can't rely on answers like Cottonee to stop it once it gets going like you can with a lot of other sweepers either.
All that being said, Spritzee's ability to set up is really hurt when it gets Knocked Off, and it doesn't have a lot of initial power like Timburr does, or the ability to attack and heal. Its defensive sets can also be pretty underwhelming offensively, and the CM set has to drop either Protect or Aromatherapy, both of which it really wants to be able to last longer. Still, its pretty comparable to the other threats in A+, being able to readily support its team, wall threats, and sweep with Calm Mind.
I'd like to disagree on Spritzee going to A+. Since you specifically mention CM Spritzee as the thing that pushes it into A+, I'll start there. Perhaps it's because I'm too used to Timburr, but when I use CM Spritzee, it seems very underwhelming to me. Mono-coverage, for one, means that any and all Steel-, Fire-, and Poison-types must be eliminated first before Spritzee can do anything. You mention trapping, and while that can fix the problem in the long run, it still means you are starting off the game pretty much at 5-6 until you can trap something. CM Spritzee can still tank, yes, but it really doesn't want to, because it needs all the health it can to survive its initial weakness before setting up. There's also the problem I've noticed that CM Spritzee has where it either sweeps or does almost nothing, with very few in-between cases. Mono-Fairy coverage means that it also takes lots of free hits from stuff that isn't weak to Fairy that can tank one Moonblast at +2 or +3 or something. Without Aromatherapy (I do not recommend dropping Protect at all from my experience) the only team support it has is Wish passing, which is dangerous and prevents Spritzee from being healed whether it works or not. Thus, it either wins the game or messes around for a few turns and maybe weakens something before going down. It takes a long time to set up between Wishing and Calm Minding, so crits are a real threat as the turns go by, and finally, it is weak to Toxic unlike the regular cleric set (once again, assuming you drop Aromatherapy because Protect is extremely useful). If I want to use a sweeper that either sweeps or fails, I'd rather use Carvanha because it at least has Destiny Bond. Regular Wall Spritzee is very solid, but with the ORAS changes, I feel it got a bit worse off thanks to Pancham and Skrelp becoming usable. Pancham is faster, can tank a Moonblast, and 2HKO with Gunk Shot, while Skrelp can switch in and smack it extremely hard while taking no damage from Moonblast, and since it is so difficult to switch into, it makes Wish passing very dangerous for Spritzee. Besides those two, it still has all its old problems, like being pretty easy to wear down for a wall because of Wish, and really being hurt by Knock Off regardless of its resistance to it. Don't get me wrong, Spritzee can be a real pain to deal with, and it's certainly the best Fairy-type in the metagame, but it just doesn't seem to be worth A+.
moves:
trubbish to B-
smoochum to D
piplup to D
skrelp to A-
numel to C+
honedge to C
gastly to A
stunky to B
tentacool to B-
rejected proposals
wynaut is gonna stay C+
archen is staying A+
most of midas's stuff
unsure atm
spritzee+magnemite
Hawkstar I don't feel that CM spritzee should just be a late game sweeper. it still has the same role as spritzee, yet without aroma support (which often isn';t even needed), so it still fills the pivot/wall role that can possibly late game sweep if given the opportunity. I don't think building a team around CM spritz is a good idea, but just to include spritzee in a team that isn't too prone to status (or has a heal bell chou or something), and then have it as a possible wincon, assuming you patch up and wear down its weaknesses (hint: use numel). however, spritzee is so easily taken advantage of by wallbreakers, it's not good enough to be A+. if the opposing team has a gastly or skrelp or magnemite, it just turns spritzee into a liability as it gets these super powerful mons that might otherwise struggle to get in, plenty of opportunities to wreak havoc.
also, one last thing: Magnemite's niche is 20SpA and voltturn, and the fact its counters don't have reliable recovery, it can just wear them down easily and cause so much trouble with Volt Switch. 14/15 Speed isn't even bad, it outspeeds any defensive mon. Endure probably isn't even the best set, that's just a set that gets used if you're like super weak to smashers and other random sweepers, realistically a well built team shouldn't always need to run endure, and instead hp ground/grass is the best option.
CM Spritzee can tank just as well, but it doesn't really want to. Switching into a Knock Off or taking 30% HP from an attack makes it extremely hard to set up since its recovery is so non-immediate. Forcing Spritzee out at that point basically guarantees its not going to sweep because it then has to either switch in again and take another hit, or lose a teammate. Unless your opponent is very weak to Spritzee or gives up two free turns in a row, there's no way it's going to wall and sweep in the same game.
I fully support giving Piplup a ranking preferably D, I have nothing to support this yet, as I am currently testing a specially defensive set currently, I will probably come back with some edits, calcs, and a small analysis. Sorry for the lack of info, but I support it. Also I'm new to the Smogforums, but I feel my LC knowledge is good enough to provide some information. I'll be back with an edit in the next few hours!
Edit: Any strong special attacker with Life Orb makes it cry. Gastly and Abra are a few examples.
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 172 HP / 228+ SpD Eviolite Piplup: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 172 HP / 228+ SpD Eviolite Piplup: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
But things like Vulpix who make it seem inferior don't hit very hard even with super effective damage.
196 SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 172 HP / 228+ SpD Eviolite Piplup: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Charmander, a common Solar Power abuser. ((Well it's not that common, lets see.))
200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Hidden Power Grass vs. 172 HP / 228+ SpD Eviolite Piplup in Sun: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Surprisingly weak. Back to calcing!
Edit 2: I decided to see if it could do anything against Fletchling and maybe burn fish, yeah it's luck, but a man can hope!
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 172 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Piplup: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Unless Swords Dance boosted, it's decent. Scald Ice Beam does...
0 SpA Piplup Ice Beam vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You could also alternatively load Piplup with better steroids EVs to make it fare better.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 172 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO.
I'm not sure if I made my point, but I think it's safe in D rank.
I fully support giving Piplup a ranking preferably D, I have nothing to support this yet, as I am currently testing a specially defensive set currently, I will probably come back with some edits, calcs, and a small analysis. Sorry for the lack of info, but I support it. Also I'm new to the Smogforums, but I feel my LC knowledge is good enough to provide some information. I'll be back with an edit in the next few days!
A fully defensive Piplup ? I'm curious but you should keep in mind that he has no reliable recovery, so that's why I think the Support is the better.
A Rest Stalk is totally outclassed by all the bulkies who can run a RestTalk set like chou or Mantyke. But let's see.
A fully defensive Piplup ? I'm curious but you should keep in mind that he has no reliable recovery, so that's why I think the Support is the better.
A Rest Stalk is totally outclassed by all the bulkies who can run a RestTalk set like chou or Mantyke. But let's see.
I'm currently giving it tests, a support set or RestTalk set yeah, it's surperior, but I want to give the defensive set a roll.
Side note: I've been thinking of a Defiant Agility set but since it's physical movepool is stuck at Drill Peck, Brick Break, Waterfall, and Dig, plus the generic Normal moves. Also Rock Tomb, it seems sub par and shouldn't even be tested. I might give it a few tests on an alt, but low ladder is low ladder. Sweeped with Blitzle low ladder.
Edit: I think it;s safe in D rank, but since I'm completely bad at analysis or calc searching I might have not made my point heavily, I might need a little help with that n-n.
In my opinion, the support set and the Defiant are two niches, but I don't think RestTalk is really good. RestTalk can be runned by a lot of mons, and Piplup has a good bulk, yeah, but what's more ? I think really he is outclassed.
In my opinion, the support set and the Defiant are two niches, but I don't think RestTalk is really good. RestTalk can be runned by a lot of mons, and Piplup has a good bulk, yeah, but what's more ? I think really he is outclassed.
Probably his other "good meh" set with support is :
Yeah alrighty, I just put some calcs up to prove he's safe in D rank and has a reason to be ran, it does take hits on either side really well if you EV him correctly, and the Defiant set could be useful if you have a Fighting weakness already and would prefer to use something else. Anyway! That's my synopsis, he belongs in D rank but nothing higher. Now that that's done, I'll be back to scourging the Smog Frog ranks to see if I can test anything.
The reasons are probably low Speed and weaknesses to Pony and Fletcling, and a lack of power before boosts giving it a difficult time in many 1v1s. Aipom has 19 Speed, a Skill Link STAB, the ability to beat Fletch 1v1, etc.
It most certainly should be lower than Aipom because Aipom is better than it. Aipom is just as bulky as Chespin (Chespin has +1 Defense -1 Special Defense compared to Aipom), has a higher Attack, much higher Speed, Skill Link + multi-hit move for STAB, Fake Out for priority and free damage, U-turn, Knock Off, and even some Baton Pass gimmickry if you feel like it. In fact, I say we raise Aipom to mid B simply because I believe its "noobish" reputation is pretty much the only thing holding it back from the upper tiers.
As for Chespin, I say to keep it where it is. Bulk Up Chespin is a poor man's Timburr, and the bulky set seems somewhat outclassed by Pumpkaboo-Super. It doesn't have Spikes, but it does have Will-o-Wisp, which makes it better suited for everything that isn't setting Spikes. Oh, and much higher Special Defense for sopping up Scalds and Volt Switches. Chespin has always been kind of meh when I face it, and so I think it's good where it is.
The reasons are probably low Speed and weaknesses to Pony and Fletcling, and a lack of power before boosts giving it a difficult time in many 1v1s. Aipom has 19 Speed, a Skill Link STAB, the ability to beat Fletch 1v1, etc.
I mean Mienfoo loses to both of the aftermentioned pokemon, only beats Fletch on the switch if HJK, and isn't 19 speed kek. It's probably the best spike setter currently (unless I'm forgetting, it has competition between Dwebble, Venipede, Omanyte and the dreaded spikes Bunnelby) and it's cute.
I think Chespin is pretty underrated. Chespin gets access to two forms of recovery in DPunch and Synthesis, allowing it to stay around throughout the match. No other Spike setter really has that ability, all Ferro has Leech Seed and Trubish has been pretty shitty lately. I think that in itself is a pretty big.
Chespin is also a low-key counter to Foongus not running Clear Smog which is pretty sweet :]
