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SPOILERS! Legends ZA Data Dumps - Adding Info to OP

I know it will suck, but I want to try Dragon Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Core Enforcer, Earth Power.

Boosting helps the mid Speed tier, and being able to go mix (even though univested base 70 isn't good) is still something, especially when ExtremeSpeed is there for chip.
 
AztecCroc said:
The specs multiplier is at the end
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:puff:I calc'd it myself now you may get what I meant with 50%+ stronger
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer Nihil(200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 456-537 (69.9 - 82.3%) guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Zygarde-Complete No item Core Enforcer Nihil(200 BP vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 310-366 (47.5 - 56.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 255-300 (39.1 - 46%)


On that note no matter how difficult it may be to get Zygarde Mega in Singles GG to all forms of full stall?
 
Hiddenfreezer said:
:puff:I calc'd it myself now you may get what I meant with 50%+ stronger
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer Nihil(200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 456-537 (69.9 - 82.3%) guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Zygarde-Complete No item Core Enforcer Nihil(200 BP vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 310-366 (47.5 - 56.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 255-300 (39.1 - 46%)


On that note no matter how difficult it may be to get Zygarde Mega in Singles GG to all forms of full stall?
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Mega Zygarde cannot use Choice Specs. It has to hold it's Mega Stone.
 
i wonder what the chances of some of these stats not making it to Champions/gen 10 exactly as they are are, since a very few Legends Arceus mons had some small stat changes going into gen 9, like Kleavor and Hisui Zoroark
 
marshyboi said:
I might be misunderstanding this but im pretty sure it can only mega evolve in 100% form right?
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You are correct.
FIRST it needs to go Power Construct mode
THEN it can mega evolve

The part where "you need to tank 50% of your HP and make it to next turn" is what makes it slightly less busted than it sounds on paper.
Again, this is not a issue when it comes to singles, as Zygarde has usually enough bulk to eat a hit (even supereffective ones as long as we're not talking of specs kyurem ice beam or something), and then you can just Rest or swap and get Wishpassed or something, but it's a much bigger deal when it comes to VGC and doubles in general where swapping is a lot more punishing and you may just get doubled into and die instead, and you definitely can't Rest it up (unless you want to give up your item slot to Chesto ig)

Soulja said:
i wonder what the chances of some of these stats not making it to Champions/gen 10 exactly as they are are, since a very few Legends Arceus mons had some small stat changes going into gen 9, like Kleavor and Hisui Zoroark
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While minor stat changes are possible, that's kinda what they are, minor.
It's very likely that Starmie will have 40 less atk than it has in ZA though, since Mawile/Medicham did get 40 extra atk in their mega form to compensate for absence of Huge Power.
(The abilities in-game are placeholders, we don't know what abilities the megas will be getting once they make it to Champions or gen 10 games)
 
Starmie is definitely going to have 40 less Attack, the fact that its BST increase in this game is +140 is a hint at its real situation.

Its "proper" stat spread in a classic battle format is likely going to be 60/100/105/130/105/120, which is a +100 increase (the usual) with Huge/Pure Power or possibly its own variation with functionally the same effect (doubling Attack) as its ability.

As for Mega Zygarde, in Smogon formats it'll probably be Anything Goes, yeah. Complete Zygarde despite all its quirks was already Uber worthy since getting it to Complete is actually fairly easy in 6v6 Singles thanks to 50% Zygarde's excellent bulk and recovering HP upon transforming. Mega Zygarde will be incredible by exchanging some bulk for raw power, even with all the effort it takes to get there, and that'll make it AG worthy possibly. I do agree that VGC will be much less kind to it and Zygarde may not be all that great there.

Though it's admittedly amusing to be how it's setting up to be the opposite of Terapagos in that regard. Stellar Terapagos has generally been very good in VGC and a great choice for a Restricted in VGC and Doubles formats but in 6v6 Singles in Smogon it's not worth it at all in Ubers, despite being broken in OU like most Restricted Legendaries. We have an antithesis there, it would seem.
 
Mega Zygarde is the Egyptian God Cards of Pokemon.
A 216 SpA spamming what is essentially reusable Z-Moves that also ignore Fairy immunities, is strong. But in order to use Nihil Light move, you got to get Base form Zygarde to under 50% HP without Leftovers or Chesto Berry, then you can Mega Evolve and start spamming the move.
In Doubles/VGC Mega Zygarde might as well not exist. You’re asking someone to have Base form Zygarde to survive against Miraidon, Koraidon, Zamazenta, Xerneas, etc. double targetting it.
Or better yet, being entirely ignored as your opponent dogpiles Zygarde’s teammates because Base form Zygarde has 81 SpA on a Pokemon you’re going to use Special attacks with.
In Singles, it’ll fair better though. It’ll still have issues getting to Mega Zygarde but that’s easier when your opponent if forced to confront your Zygarde and deal damage to it, and there tend to be more passive Pokemon in Singles than Doubles. It’ll make for a strong wallbreaker.
But this is Ubers, so why would you want a wallbreaker that requires tons of set up and doesn’t do much against offense on account of it being pretty slow, when you could use Zacian, Calyrex, Necrozma, and Bike Dragons which all are still strong wallbreakers that are also fast (or fast in Trick Room) to combat offense and require far less set up?
 
ScraftyIsTheBest said:
Though it's admittedly amusing to be how it's setting up to be the opposite of Terapagos in that regard. Stellar Terapagos has generally been very good in VGC and a great choice for a Restricted in VGC and Doubles formats but in 6v6 Singles in Smogon it's not worth it at all in Ubers, despite being broken in OU like most Restricted Legendaries. We have an antithesis there, it would seem.
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I think the original Zygarde-Complete and Terapagos already mimicked that much closer, actually. They're both very bulky Pokémon that don't really hit very hard from the get go, but have one super spammable move due to the lack of resistances and could set up to try get going. The original Zygarde was one of the very best Pokémon in Ubers and while it iirc was pretty well ranked during the brief Sun Series in gen 7, was pretty niche on other metas. Terapagos wasn't as successful on VGC as Zygarde was on Smogon, but worked much better than on singles. Mega is more so shaping to imo be the best singles mon in the last gens, but still pretty strong on Doubles, just on a lesser extent (you could even try something like Scarf Urshifu into Protect Zygarde maybe? Sounds crazy, but Surging Strikes does do exactly 50% minimum damage to Zygarde-50% forme, funnily enough lol)
 
Cuddly said:
But this is Ubers, so why would you want a wallbreaker that requires tons of set up and doesn’t do much against offense on account of it being pretty slow, when you could use Zacian, Calyrex, Necrozma, and Bike Dragons which all are still strong wallbreakers that are also fast (or fast in Trick Room) to combat offense and require far less set up?
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252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Nihil Light (200 Base Power) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 282-333 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Nihil Light (200 Base Power) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 193-228 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Nihil Light (200 Base Power) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Calyrex-Ice: 382-451 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

'Cause of calcs like these lol.

Based on how utterly ludicrous Nihil Light is, it OHKOes most mons on offense. I calced with Calyrex-Ice for a reason 'cause that thing is thick as hell and one of the bulkiest mons you'll see in Trick Room.

Now that we know Nihil Light has 200 Base Power, all Mega Zygarde-Complete really needs is Nihil Light, Earth Power, Dragon Dance, and one filler move, like say Substitute, to make it easier to get into its Complete form, which is enough to cleave through the Ubers format. Nihil Light should be usable as soon as you Mega Evolve since Core Enforcer transforms into Nihil Light, meaning the move is more spammable than Light That Burns The Sky since you need to Ultra Burst for a full turn before being able to use it and since Nihil Light can be used repeatedly.
 
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Soulja said:
i wonder what the chances of some of these stats not making it to Champions/gen 10 exactly as they are are, since a very few Legends Arceus mons had some small stat changes going into gen 9, like Kleavor and Hisui Zoroark
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Those were errors that were undone in the 1.0.1 update, Kleavor and Hisuian Zoroark have the exact same stats in SV now as they did in PLA. The only one that'll change is Starmie.
 
Avira said:
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Nihil Light (200 Base Power) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 282-333 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer (200 Base Power) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 193-228 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Calyrex-Ice: 382-451 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

'Cause of calcs like these lol.

Based on how utterly ludicrous Nihil Light is, it OHKOes most mons on offense. I calced with Calyrex-Ice for a reason 'cause that thing is thick as hell and one of the bulkiest mons you'll see in Trick Room.

Now that we know Nihil Light has 200 Base Power, all Mega Zygarde-Complete really needs is Nihil Light, Earth Power, Dragon Dance, and one filler move, like say Substitute, to make it easier to get into its Complete form, which is enough to cleave through the Ubers format.
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It’s KO’s a lot of things, yes. That makes it a strong Wallbreaker.
But consider the concept of deminishing returns.
After a certain point, the increase in raw power becomes less impactful.
Yeah Mega Zygarde is technically doing more damage than the other Ubers I mentioned. However, all those Ubers are also still OHKOing most things and 2HKOing tons more too.
And they can do so immediately.
And they also don’t take up a Mega Slot.
And are typically faster (Calyrex-I being faster in Trick Room).

And also consider just using non-Mega Zygarde too. Regular Zygarde-C is way easier to use. You get Leftovers or Chesto Berry to heal, a stronger Extreme Speed, better bulk, and your opponent just ignore you because you’re setting up with boosting moves that boost the offense you’re actually using.

Edit: To give an example of a scenario.
You have Zygarde 50% and your opponent sends out Necrozma Dusk-Mane with a bulky Dragon Dance set.
Scenario A:
You are using non-Mega Zygarde and are using Coil set.
In this scenario, Necrozma can’t set up. It’ll lose head on and potentially lose you the game since you let Zygarde set up multiple times, even if you don’t manage to turn it into Zygarde-C.
Additionally, you can Tera too in case you need it.
Scenario B:
You are using Mega Zygarde with Core Enforcer, Earth Power, Dragon Dance for speed, and some 3rd option.
In this scenario, because you are still at Zygarde 50%, your opponent can just click Dragon Dance multiple times. Remember, you can’t use Mega Zygarde unless you in its complete form. Otherwise you’re stuck with an 81 SpA that you can’t boost. Unless you’re running Thousand Arrows as well, which is weird since you are gonna need to EV your Zygarde to be mixed while making it bulky and while making it outspeed certain targets.
 
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Cuddly said:
It’s KO’s a lot of things, yes. That makes it a strong Wallbreaker.
But consider the concept of deminishing returns.
After a certain point, the increase in raw power becomes less impactful.
Yeah Mega Zygarde is technically doing more damage than the other Ubers I mentioned. However, all those Ubers are also still OHKOing most things and 2HKOing tons more too.
And they can do so immediately.
And they also don’t take up a Mega Slot.
And are typically faster (Calyrex-I being faster in Trick Room).

And also consider just using non-Mega Zygarde too. Regular Zygarde-C is way easier to use. You get Leftovers or Chesto Berry to heal, a stronger Extreme Speed, better bulk, and your opponent just ignore you because you’re setting up with boosting moves that boost the offense you’re actually using.
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Zygarde doesn't run Extreme Speed on Ubers, it's way too weak and you can already boost Speed anyway. Really, the difference is how spammable the move is and how bulky Zygarde is. You can compare it to Specs Miraidon, but Electro Drift still is a move that can't touch any Ground-type and doesn't hit as hard anyway. Calyrex is a stronger Pokémon than Miraidon, but Astral Barrage still is less spammable than Nihil Light (despite both being very spammable) and is also a lot frailer than Zygarde - and Calyrex in generation 9 is literally the best Pokémon ever since gen 1 Mewtwo. It's not really any wasted to go for that, Doubles is where transforming can be a bit harder, but Ubers has seen Zygarde transforming into Complete reliably for nearly a decade now (including sets that had no recovery, like Groundium Z).
 
Ropalme1914 said:
Zygarde doesn't run Extreme Speed on Ubers, it's way too weak and you can already boost Speed anyway. Really, the difference is how spammable the move is and how bulky Zygarde is. You can compare it to Specs Miraidon, but Electro Drift still is a move that can't touch any Ground-type and doesn't hit as hard anyway. Calyrex is a stronger Pokémon than Miraidon, but Astral Barrage still is less spammable than Nihil Light (despite both being very spammable) and is also a lot frailer than Zygarde - and Calyrex in generation 9 is literally the best Pokémon ever since gen 1 Mewtwo. It's not really any wasted to go for that, Doubles is where transforming can be a bit harder, but Ubers has seen Zygarde transforming into Complete reliably for nearly a decade now (including sets that had no recovery, like Groundium Z).
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diminishing returns
phrase of diminish

  1. proportionally smaller profits or benefits derived from something as more money or energy is invested in it.
    "diminishing returns on infrastructure projects may reduce the promised investment gains"
This is an important word phrase here.
Mega Zygarde doing more damage, yes, but the number of thresholds its surpasing compared to other legendaries not that much more.
Yes, Astral Barrage can’t hit Normal types and is resisted by Dark.
That sounds like a huge advantage but that basically is just Arceus, Yveltal, and Blissey. The former 2 you can use Draining Kiss, and the Latter you can use multiple things from Psyshock to Trick to Substitute.
Calyrex-S doesn’t need that extra Firepower on Astral Barrage because it can deal with the things that otherwise would tank it.
It also gets such power immediately, is way faster so its way harder to revenge kill, snowballs its power, can shutdown checks with various tools, etc.

In contrast, Mega Zygarde is stronger with a more spammable move, but isn’t immediate and is way harder to use. You’re easier to revenge kill as Mega Zygarde, and as Base form Zygarde you’re easy to exploit since you have only 81 SpA with no SpA boosting options.
And that’s also an important difference too. You could normally get to 50% with Zygarde complete because your opponent is forced to respond to it. After 3 Dragon Dances, you’d be doing a lot of damage because those Dragon Dances boosted your physical moves.
If you’re running Mega Zygarde however, whay exactly is preventing your opponent from just setting up on you while you’re still in your base form?
Dragon Dance doesn’t boost SpA. There are plenty of Pokemon that don’t really care about special attacks from unboosted 81 SpA. You’re kind of a sitting duck until your opponent decides to turn you into Zygarde complete or just dead. That is unless you use Substitute, switch out, switch back in, and use Substitute again, which means you need at least 4 turns to get Mega Zygarde on your own.
 
Cuddly said:
diminishing returns
phrase of diminish

  1. proportionally smaller profits or benefits derived from something as more money or energy is invested in it.
    "diminishing returns on infrastructure projects may reduce the promised investment gains"
This is an important word phrase here.
Mega Zygarde doing more damage, yes, but the number of thresholds its surpasing compared to other legendaries not that much more.
Yes, Astral Barrage can’t hit Normal types and is resisted by Dark.
That sounds like a huge advantage but that basically is just Arceus, Yveltal, and Blissey. The former 2 you can use Draining Kiss, and the Latter you can use multiple things from Psyshock to Trick to Substitute.
Calyrex-S doesn’t need that extra Firepower on Astral Barrage because it can deal with the things that otherwise would tank it.
It also gets such power immediately, is way faster so its way harder to revenge kill, snowballs its power, can shutdown checks with various tools, etc.

In contrast, Mega Zygarde is stronger with a more spammable move, but isn’t immediate and is way harder to use. You’re easier to revenge kill as Mega Zygarde, and as Base form Zygarde you’re easy to exploit since you have only 81 SpA with no SpA boosting options.
And that’s also an important difference too. You could normally get to 50% with Zygarde complete because your opponent is forced to respond to it. After 3 Dragon Dances, you’d be doing a lot of damage because those Dragon Dances boosted your physical moves.
If you’re running Mega Zygarde however, whay exactly is preventing your opponent from just setting up on you while you’re still in your base form?
Dragon Dance doesn’t boost SpA. There are plenty of Pokemon that don’t really care about special attacks from unboosted 81 SpA. You’re kind of a sitting duck until your opponent decides to turn you into Zygarde complete or just dead. That is unless you use Substitute, switch out, switch back in, and use Substitute again, which means you need at least 4 turns to get Mega Zygarde on your own.
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Well, it's hard to call diminishing returns for two reasons:
1-Specs Calyrex-Shadow still 2HKOes a lot of things that Zygarde straight up threatens (or even guarantees) a OHKO depending on their spread and Zygarde's nature, regardless of their type, like Ho-Oh and other Arceus formes (even outside of Normal and Dark). If that was the case, Nasty Plot Life Orb Calyrex wouldn't be a thing over Specs, but it's actually a very common set, too - even among those Pokémon, you still keep getting new benchmarks.
2-If you think it's still overkill, you can actually afford to not invest into SpA, and make Zygarde even bulkier! Did you know 0 SpA Nihil Light hits almost as hard as 252 SpA Specs Electro Drift?

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Electric Terrain: 373-439 (97.9 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 364-429 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

So you could just focus on bulk and Speed instead, for example. Of course, if you're still in base, you aren't just staying against the enemy - against defensive teams, getting two Subs out shouldn't be hard, even more with Zygarde's HP protecting it from having its Substitute broken by Seismic Toss and just outspeeding anyone that tries to status it. Against offensive teams, you also got Glare, which cripples the vast majority of offensive threats too.

Yes, it has drawbacks, even the very best of the previous gens do. Zygarde is the "hardest" (honestly not really that much) one to access, but with the biggest payoff to compensate. If you're letting the enemy Necrozma get three Dragon Dances off because you kept Zygarde-50% on the field and didn't even paralyze it, then that was on you making a very bad play.
 
You know I kind of touched on it with Merciless but I feel like people can get a bit too...focused, when a pun is involved.
Like Huge Power in japanese has an extra reading that pertains to rabbits. And 2 rabbits get it. Ergo it's only on rabbits. But Mega Mawile gets it. Well, ergo it must also be considered a rabbit. Because only rabbits can get it.
But it also still. Has the other (likely meant to be primary) reading, which is why it has the effect it does? So I don't think they gave it to Mega Mawile because Mega Mawile looks like a rabbit so (wipes brows) phew dont need to make a third ability that does the same thing, I think they just gave it Huge Power because that was the design space they wanted to give it. See also, them giving Huge Power to some of the PWT weirdos (a karate guy and a giant lady).
So I think they probably do just give it Huge Power and call it a day. Considering its increased athleticism and tokuatsu references, "muscleman" fits it just as well in a more literal interpretation.


This is all will get swept aside because actually!! starmie is associated with space and space is where the moon is and the moon is where the mochi-making-rabbit association is from and thus (rest of message interrupted because i've melted)
 
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