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Let's ban Hidden Power

Footnote said:
What wouldn't work, exactly? If you're talking about a metagame without Hidden Power, I already know that works. I've experienced it. It's not like the whole game would fall apart if Hidden Power were removed.
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I mean the guys suggestion about hp type and power being determined by nature. Ive already given my views in the topic earlier on.
 
There have been similar discussions to this about evasion, OHKOs, Legendaries, Event Pokemon, base 600 Pokemon, etc. In the end the original poster still remains in the minority.

It's not that your arguments are without merit, but the counter arguments to banning Hidden Power are stronger and more established as are some people's reliance on Hidden Power itself.
 
Phuquoph said:
There have been similar discussions to this about evasion, OHKOs, Legendaries, Event Pokemon, base 600 Pokemon, etc. In the end the original poster still remains in the minority.

It's not that your arguments are without merit, but the counter arguments to banning Hidden Power are stronger and more established as are some people's reliance on Hidden Power itself.
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That's fair. I have no illusions about this: I know I won't convince everybody. When Diamond and Pearl are released here, I'll set up a a group of people who want to try battling without Hidden Power, Legendaries, or base 600 Pokémon. That way people can try it out to see if they like it. Besides, it's not like they have to use these rules exclusively. I'm sure it's fun to use Legendaries sometimes. Maybe this gen I'll broaden my horizons and give that a shot. It wouldn't be fair for me to ask everybody else to change if I didn't give their way a try.

As far as the counter-arguments being stronger, I think there are two questions we all have to ask ourselves. First, do you believe that removing Hidden Power and Legendaries would make the game more interesting by adding variety and encouraging new strategies? Second, do you want the game to be more interesting, even if it means learning a new way to play? If you answered no to the second question, then you and I can just agree to disagree and go our separate ways. If you answered no to the first question, why don't you try battling my way just to make sure you're not mistaken? Of course, if you answered yes to both questions, then you and I are in total agreement.

I see two basic camps on this: people who really love their tried-and-true metagame the way it is now and don't want change because it means they'll have to learn all over again, and people who want a bit more variety and strategy. I respect both viewpoints, but I can almost guarantee that those of you looking for more variety are better off playing without Hidden Power.

For those of you who think that Hidden Power and Legendaries make the game more interesting, why not try it my way? What have you got to lose? I'll certainly be trying it your way. I've been wrong before.
 
If Hidden Power is banned (something that won't happen) i'm sure that Pure Electric types won't be seen in OU, really (Electivire maybe the only exception)

There's nothing broken in a max 70 Base Power Special move that almost always doesn't get STAB, generally they are there because of 4x weakness or another reason (HP Fire in Sunnybeamers to counter Steel types and the Sunny Day boost)

I can see the metagame withouth Hidden Power, but at the same time i see a metagame that is completely ruled by those Strong Pokemon that aren't Uber because of their weakness (Salamence, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc)
 
Edux said:
If Hidden Power is banned (something that won't happen) i'm sure that Pure Electric types won't be seen in OU, really (Electivire maybe the only exception)

There's nothing broken in a max 70 Base Power Special move that almost always doesn't get STAB, generally they are there because of 4x weakness or another reason (HP Fire in Sunnybeamers to counter Steel types and the Sunny Day boost)

I can see the metagame withouth Hidden Power, but at the same time i see a metagame that is completely ruled by those Strong Pokemon that aren't Uber because of their weakness (Salamence, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc)
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OK, see, this is my fault. I have two strong opinions about Pokémon. One is that Hidden Power shouldn't be used. Another is that Legendaries and 600 BST Pokémon (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salmence, Metagross, and Garchomp) should be in their own bracket with the Übers.

I thought that it would be too ambitious to bring up both subjects in one thread. This was a mistake, because I keep hearing, "If you take out Hidden Power, the 600 BST Pokémon will run amok!" Yes! A hunderd times, yes! Clearly with these two rules, it's both or neither. You all have convinced me of that. By removing just 27 Pokémon and one move and throwing double battles into the mix once in a while, over 100 other Pokémon suddenly become usable in one big bracket. Now that's variety. In fact, I'm going to count how many Pokémon aren't OU or BL right now that become usable. I'll post it it a minute or two.

P.S. Even if you're right, and Electric-types will disappear (which I really doubt), maybe they'll be replaced by Grass-types or some such! Don't see many of those around these days. It's bound to include more Pokémon than it excludes.
 
All this topic has come down to is the following scenario.

One guy says thinks HP should be banned because either its not realistic in-game and/or it unfairly gives two pokemon electric pokemon a chance in OU.

Another guy disagrees and states hidden power is a good thing because it gives those same two electric pokemon a chance in OU and isn't overpowered.

Rinse

Repeat
 
LatinoHeat, if you think the thread has run its course, you don't have to post on it.

EDIT: I count over 120 Pokémon from the Advance UU and NU lists that would become usable if the above rules were implemented. I know this is a hollow claim without specifics. Soon I will start a new thread in order to put my ideas where my mouth is. I claim that almost every Pokémon (with named exceptions) can have a useful place on a competitve battling team. People can suggest specific Pokémon and I will tell them how it can be used to better a team.

The more I think about it, LatinoHeat, the more I think you're right. I will attempt to let this thread die. Thanks for your input, everyone! See you on another thread.
 
I seriously think we should test out a hidden power clause on competitor, just to see if it would work. We really don't know until we try it. Footnote, I know you don't want this clumping with your Legendaries/600s ban, but I owuld be okay with saying you could just have one. Tyranitar,Garchomp, and Metagross together are pretty much one the scariest things I can think of.
 
Wouldn't it make sense from a developers point of view to create a game devoid of a move like Hidden Power? Is it simply hard to maintain balance with so many variables being introduced every generation?

Also: why would Nintendo ever hold tournaments for competitive battling if the real number of Pokemon that were "usable" was so small in comparison to the number of fully evolved pokemon? I can understand novelty pokemon, but I doubt more than half the game is made up with them. It makes sense to me that a competitive game like this would want all types to be relevant, unfortunately, every generation there are new Dragon gellatin cups and Steel wall all-rounders that clearly state the opposite. There are certainly avenues for exploration within types such as Bug, Grass, and Electric (just naming off some under represented types in my opinion).

I think the issue of the validity of hidden power, and it is clearly an issue, is extremely important to a competitive battling community such as this. I can't say whether the reluctance of some posters here is because of what they believe or because they just don't want things to have to change much beyond what laws Nintendo lays down. In any event, ending this thread prematurely would be a bad idea and it's pretty clear this aggrivation with the current metagame isn't an idea that stems from a few posters.

Trying my best not to be a rabble rouser.
 
Regardless of hidden power, the reason I never thought much of your "new tier" idea, Footnote, was because of things like Rhyperior, Starmie and Gengar... where is the line drawn?

This is a separate issue and definitely not an easy one to discuss. The ADV tier system could most likely be improved and elaborated upon, among other changes, but change won't come easy. What'll it take to change? Some people with a lot of good ideas and a head for balance, as well as some influential people willing to establish an environment for playing under the new rules.

That's a lot to ask for, I think. Sure it's possible, but I'm going ot politely tell you now, Footnote, that simply separating Pokemon by base stat total is futile. It's not a comprehensive guage as to what sort of a threat a Pokemon poses to others.

...Lanturn is awesome.
 
The way things are going you won't even have to worry about jolteon in OU, i haven't seen it once on a RMT and its seems so much less ineffective then the rest of the OU metagame.
 
ANinyMouse said:
Regardless of hidden power, the reason I never thought much of your "new tier" idea, Footnote, was because of things like Rhyperior, Starmie and Gengar... where is the line drawn?

This is a separate issue and definitely not an easy one to discuss. The ADV tier system could most likely be improved and elaborated upon, among other changes, but change won't come easy. What'll it take to change? Some people with a lot of good ideas and a head for balance, as well as some influential people willing to establish an environment for playing under the new rules.

That's a lot to ask for, I think. Sure it's possible, but I'm going ot politely tell you now, Footnote, that simply separating Pokemon by base stat total is futile as it is not a comprehensive guage to threat a Pokemon poses to others.

...Lanturn is awesome.
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Well, Lanturn definitely is awesome. It's a great Starmie counter, for one thing.

If you're asking me where I, specifically, would draw the line, you already know. Rhyperior looks like it'll be a juggernaut, and Starmie and Gengar certainly are difficult to swtich into, but none are without counters. Dividing by Base Stat Total may not be the only way to do it, but in my experience that's the best place for the line. Believe me, it's not an arbitrary decision. I've experimented. Besides, Base Stats aren't the only thing that matters. I'd still allow Slaking.

As for change happening, you're right about needing influential people to establish the environment, but that's only for Competitor. My hope at this point is to get a group of people together who have similar ideas and want to try out this new tier via Friend Codes on Wi-Fi. If they like it, perhaps more people will try it too until it becomes a bit more mainstream.

You know, one of the things I like best about Diamond and Pearl is all the new legendaries. At first, I thought, "Man, I couldn't care less about these." But then I realized that with all the legendaries that exist now, you could have a no-holds-barred bracket of Übers and legendaries and still have a lot of variety. Even I'd be excited to give that a shot.
 
Footnote said:
Well, Lanturn definitely is awesome. It's a great Starmie counter, for one thing.
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and fuck all else does it even do that well anymore with alot of starmie carrying grass rope.

I would just allow hidden power for now wait till the metagame is fully established then we can judge how much influence it has.
 
latinoheat said:
and fuck all else does it even do that well anymore with alot of starmie carrying grass rope.

I would just allow hidden power for now wait till the metagame is fully established then we can judge how much influence it has.
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You've got a good point about Grass Knot, but it'll only be 40 power against Lanturn, by my calculations. Lanturn's not very heavy, luckily.
 
Lanturn is the best Starmie counter there is besides maybe CM Blissey. The difference is that it's easier to switch into Blissey than it is to switch into Lanturn. Ironically, Blissey counters Lanturn rather well :}
 
It's true! Man, I got so sick of Double Team Blissey in the Battle Frontier that I started using a Hariyama with Vital Throw. Blissey didn't stand up to that so well. Ah, that felt good.

My 100th post. That's a good excuse for being off-topic, right?

...Right?
 
About the issue of drawing the line; I seem to recall a thread a few months ago about making a new tier, separate from the established Uber/OU/BL/UU, that would include the lower OUs, all of BL (unless any of those became too powerful in the absence of high-OUs) and the best of UU. I thought this was a GREAT idea. Combine this with the hidden power clause we're discussing, and you get a radically different metagame. Would it be more enjoyable? Only one way to find out. I would really like to see a metagame without whoring of Garchomp, Hera, Gengar, Mence, Manaphy, TTar, Blissey, Azelf, Rhyperior, Porygon-Z, Gyra... lalala... Seriously, when's the last time you've seen a team without MINIMUM two of the above? I think this new tier should definately be considered, both on wi-fi and competitor.

And to anyone asking to close this thread... uhh no? I realize the DP Metagame hasn't started yet but i think we have a pretty decent idea of who the big players are going to be. And besides, this new tier idea has nothing to do with DP in particular. Hell, I'd like to see such a tier in RSE, though it's kind of late for that.

Congrats on 100 =)
 
The thing is the idea of having two seperate metagames,an OU metagame with Hidden power and Without will not work imo.Mainly becuase they are way too similar.

With hidden power you obviously get the current metagame thats starting to form.

Without it you get rid of jolteon and raikou,with really nothing new being promoted to OU as neither are responsible for making an UU or BL pokemon redundant.
You also get a mixed infernarape without hp ice,but its not gonna stop people using SD infernape, so that stays where it is.
HP Electric slowbro is pretty specific people will just use one of the other gyra counters.Slowbro will still get used because of it decent movepool and stats.
The rare hp fighting sets of gengar/zam and azleaf are gone but zam/gengar just replace it with focus bomb.Azleaf just looks through its huge movepool and finds another way to fuck up everything. In summary all three are not relying on hidden power to stay OU or even have an influence on the metagame.
Magnezone might suffer from losing Hidden power but i think it has enough going for it to not be completly dropped from OU same applies to zapdos.

So basically

Hidden Power allowed=Current Metagame that is forming
Hidden Power banned= A Raikou/Jolteon free metagame, with possibly zapdos,slowbro and magnezone taking a little dent in popularity.Anything that had a slim hope of getting use in OU such as scheme houndoom is shut out which with zapdos/raikou gone as well makes an even less varied metagame.

Hardly worth the change is it.
 
ekans dilos said:
About the issue of drawing the line; I seem to recall a thread a few months ago about making a new tier, separate from the established Uber/OU/BL/UU, that would include the lower OUs, all of BL (unless any of those became too powerful in the absence of high-OUs) and the best of UU. I thought this was a GREAT idea. Combine this with the hidden power clause we're discussing, and you get a radically different metagame. Would it be more enjoyable? Only one way to find out. I would really like to see a metagame without whoring of Garchomp, Hera, Gengar, Mence, Manaphy, TTar, Blissey, Azelf, Rhyperior, Porygon-Z, Gyra... lalala...
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Quoted because I actually like the idea of doing this. It would make a metagame where the overused aren't allowed yet where the semi-weak yet usefull can be used. Arcanine and Houndoom could end up having their glory days and Skarmory would be overused once more for the gligar evo has sadly tooken it's place yet it still sees major use. Some pokemon that could be used there would be tentacruel, jolteon, vaporeon, espeon, lickilicki, lanturn, and countless others who would be great fun to use. But the question is are people wiling to try this at all? Since OU will remain ever popular but it could be a fun tire to atleast test out and see if it could be done.
 
Heracross can know defeat skarmory and gliscor has been used a lot more as the big defensive wall as of recently after looking through several RMTs.
 
Gliscor opens up an Ice Weaknesses, which limits your options in terms of resistances, seeing as that a lot of OU pokes are weak to Ice.

I guess I might even use CScarf Brave Bird Skarm just to play with the OHKO on Hera.

But HP just augments the metagame, Jolteon loves its HP's and it seriously will make the metagame smaller rather than larger. People will have to use the same pokes to cover what they need to, while Hidden Power gives other pokes that chance as well.
 
While I'm in support of HP in DP, I cannot say it really "augments" the metagame.

Like I said before, the good/bad thing about Hidden Power is that it improves the metagame OFFENSIVELY but hurts the metagame DEFENSIVELY.
 
I wish Hidden Power never existed in the first place. I find it mildly irritating that a perfect Electivire counter - Swampert - gets battered by a random HP Grass.

Despite that, I'd never support a ban on it simply because it's not game breaking enough. It's a minor irritation, but that's it.
 
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