-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Let's ban Hidden Power
- Thread starter Footnote
- Start date
No! No no no no no!
Hidden Power should NOT be banned. I worked too hard for mine. ;-;
And I don't understand why its gamebreaking! Wouldn't it balance out the metagame if things could hit Garchomp SEtively?
Hidden Power should NOT be banned. I worked too hard for mine. ;-;
And I don't understand why its gamebreaking! Wouldn't it balance out the metagame if things could hit Garchomp SEtively?
Not that anyone should assume or expect otherwise (lol), but Kristy speaks a very important truth. HP Ice Weezing is a very viable Garchomp counter, and now Slowbro and Swampert are expected to run HP Electric like mad to stop Gyarados' rampage. This should not fail to factor into our thoughts.
RSE gen, I wouldn't mind it since it does kind of take a dynamic out of the game, yet it can help out some Pokemon (Zapdos especially). But, in DP, there shoudn't be a ban on it. Considering the dynamic of HP changes to only be of use on Special-strong Pokemon, it limits it's use now on the number of Pokemon it can be used on. But, since most HP's are already used on Special Pokemon, it doesn't matter much neways.
Being that I dislike most clauses by default (sans Sleep, Species and Item), I couldn't agree with a Hidden Power ban. This is speaking as one of those poor souls who can't even manage to breed decently IV'd Pokemon with a correct nature, despite Emerald's advances. If a person has the time to make 'perfect' Pokemon, they should be allowed to use them.
However, I would support a Hidden Power clause on Competitor, even though I would not be affected by it. Not one of my planned team relies on Hidden Power for coverage (they're not really standards, either), and I'll admit that the team is on odds with the 'standards' that are being passed around so lightly.
However, I would support a Hidden Power clause on Competitor, even though I would not be affected by it. Not one of my planned team relies on Hidden Power for coverage (they're not really standards, either), and I'll admit that the team is on odds with the 'standards' that are being passed around so lightly.
I don't think this debate has anything to do with Wi-Fi.
Competitor is a different story since it is different from the actual pokemon game. Being able to set perfect IVs with 6 mouse clicks isn't what GF had in mind when designing game mechanics. Removing hidden power could make the game more pure for lack of a better word. Like someone's quote says, "it would make ground types sufficient electric counters again. Oh, the nostalgia".
At any rate, i don't see what the problem is with just adding an HP clause. Then people could choose for themselves.
Another thing i'd like to add is that I have 57 proposed D/P pokemon so far, and only two of them have HP attached. The majority of pokes had their movepool variety increased dramatically this generation so it isn't in as high demand anymore.
Competitor is a different story since it is different from the actual pokemon game. Being able to set perfect IVs with 6 mouse clicks isn't what GF had in mind when designing game mechanics. Removing hidden power could make the game more pure for lack of a better word. Like someone's quote says, "it would make ground types sufficient electric counters again. Oh, the nostalgia".
At any rate, i don't see what the problem is with just adding an HP clause. Then people could choose for themselves.
Another thing i'd like to add is that I have 57 proposed D/P pokemon so far, and only two of them have HP attached. The majority of pokes had their movepool variety increased dramatically this generation so it isn't in as high demand anymore.
i agree to banning it on competitor, or at least making a "No HP" clause. I think it is kind of gamebreaking though. Case in point, electrics. Raichu is much weaker stat-wise than Raikou or Zapdos, BUT it gets the most diverse movepool. With HP however the latter two get all they need in HP Ice/Grass (granted Raichu can run Grass Rope + HP Ice but still) where ingame the chances of them having said move at 70 power, perfect type, nature, etc. is like one in 100000000 (not breedable). In wi-fi though, anyone who manages to get one deserves it IMO, and it'll be rare enough an occurance that it certainly won't ruin the game.
In DP, HP has become special, meaning that things with a bad special attack stat basically don't have access to it anymore. However, things with a good special attack stat can also use HP Flying, say, for quite a lot of damage.
However, DP has given most of the Pokemon so many options and new moves that Hidden Power is barely an issue.
For example, consider Gyarados, since most people here mentioned it. Gyarados lost Hidden Power Flying in DP, and it didn't earn a physical Flying move to compensate. Did anyone complain? No, because it gets access to Ice Fang and Waterfall. If anything, Gyarados seems to be even more of a threat in DP than in ADV, even without a physical Flying move.
However, DP has given most of the Pokemon so many options and new moves that Hidden Power is barely an issue.
For example, consider Gyarados, since most people here mentioned it. Gyarados lost Hidden Power Flying in DP, and it didn't earn a physical Flying move to compensate. Did anyone complain? No, because it gets access to Ice Fang and Waterfall. If anything, Gyarados seems to be even more of a threat in DP than in ADV, even without a physical Flying move.
^ If only because Ice and ground is better coverage then flying/ground.
I dont really care what happens with hidden power, I think that it should be STAB only though.
I dont really care what happens with hidden power, I think that it should be STAB only though.
Except for stuff like Zapdos and raikou to an extent. Electric types get shafted without it, although there is toxic and switching lol. There wasnt many special sweepers that used hidden power anyway, so it isnt that big an issue.
OK look at the scenarios.
If HP is kept
A whole of two electric pokemon who both have alot of counters stay OU,rhyperior and garchomp are slightly easier to counter,slowbro can carry hp electric for gyarados but is then left with a lack of coverage for other physical threats. Things like houndoom actually have a chance to be half decent due to hp grass. Zam and Azleaf are allowed to use hp fighting.
Only Two pokemon move down to BL/UU,rhyperior is even harder to counter and ends up on basically every team same with garchomp to a lesser extent.Gyarados runs through basically every team on netbattle that isn't forced to use recover starmie or thunderbolt weezing. Even more pokemon become less usable outside of UU.Zam and Azleaf don't really give a shit about using hp fighting because they get focus bomb or better options.HP Grass is banned but swampert is still top 10 OU so it didn't really make a difference,Quagsire remains in UU because Swampert is plain better not becuase of HP Grass.
HP is hardly Game breaking if anything it helps.
If HP is kept
A whole of two electric pokemon who both have alot of counters stay OU,rhyperior and garchomp are slightly easier to counter,slowbro can carry hp electric for gyarados but is then left with a lack of coverage for other physical threats. Things like houndoom actually have a chance to be half decent due to hp grass. Zam and Azleaf are allowed to use hp fighting.
Only Two pokemon move down to BL/UU,rhyperior is even harder to counter and ends up on basically every team same with garchomp to a lesser extent.Gyarados runs through basically every team on netbattle that isn't forced to use recover starmie or thunderbolt weezing. Even more pokemon become less usable outside of UU.Zam and Azleaf don't really give a shit about using hp fighting because they get focus bomb or better options.HP Grass is banned but swampert is still top 10 OU so it didn't really make a difference,Quagsire remains in UU because Swampert is plain better not becuase of HP Grass.
HP is hardly Game breaking if anything it helps.
Thunderbolt
Substitute
HP Grass
Baton Pass
????
Also people where is the mention of Zapdos? It is more OU than Jolteon and without HP would either be walled by Whiscash or have to use something like Extrasensory (:s) to do 20% to Swampert.
This and basically everything in latinoheat's latest post are also points I'd like to underline. It's really just the electrics that "need" it, since Gengar and Azelf can get by without it and just "want" it if anything. In regards to that, though, one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is how, coincidentally, Electivire shuts down basically every HP electric in the game now, including itself. Sure, it's just one pokemon, but I think it's worth mentioning just from a irony perspective. Electivire shuts down:
1) HP Jolteon from using anything but Sub then BP in that order (on the Vire switch in and from the forthcoming EQ), which is actually the reason I put Jolteon on the threat list, not because of Hidden Power
2) HP Zapdos from using anything but Sub then BP or HP Ice/Grass, which is still going to get tagged by Ice Punch (TB/HP/BP/Sub is the set I guess? lol)
3) HP Raikou from using anything but Sub then HP
4) HP Electivire from using anything but CC or IP or HP Grass once on the switch, because by definition HP Grass goes over Earthquake on the "standard" TB/CC/IP/EQ set to get Swampert
So if anything, Electivire should be remembered as maybe some sort of equalizer in this whole Hidden Power issue, since no electrics can kill it and its respectable 85 base Special Defense unless they predict and use HP on like every switch in. Just a thought.
Or they decide to use HP Ground.
Because they can.
Because they can.
I only read over a few posts in this thread, but I'd like to openly address something about debating this here. I'm just going to call out a few names but everyone should probably read this. This is a debate, nothing more, nothing less. Footnote clearly intended to let people think about this instead of instantly biting whatever they can.
Great Sage, I'd appreciate it if you could drop that annoying tone.
We're trying to think beyond our normal standards and looking at how influental Hidden Power is. Your opinion isn't any more important than anyone else's in this thread, so please, stop the "I could care less for your perfection". If everyone took that kind of attitude how could we ever have a good topic?
If you're not going to back-up your opinion right away you might as well not post. This isn't a poll nor is it Firebot. One-sentence posts clearly don't cut it here.
Stop making new accounts you fucktard.
For my own opinion, I only have one kind of ethic for a Pokemon (meta)game. I want it to be fun to play. Does allowing or banning Hidden Power make Pokemon more or less fun to play? Maybe. But we don't know at this point, as Misty said. What we can do is look at the theoretical balance.
For Grounds walling Electrics again, take a close look at what DP does with Ground-types. They made every one of them resist a new type of Spikes. They created a Rock-type Cross Chop. They got you another good Pokemon with Sand Stream (which they gave great stats as well). They evolved Rhydon into possibly one of the most powerful standards ever. I'd say Grounds have got their fair share, I'd rather throw these Electrics or Fire-types that need Hidden Power a bone.
Great Sage, I'd appreciate it if you could drop that annoying tone.
Great Sage said:
We're trying to think beyond our normal standards and looking at how influental Hidden Power is. Your opinion isn't any more important than anyone else's in this thread, so please, stop the "I could care less for your perfection". If everyone took that kind of attitude how could we ever have a good topic?
Toy said:
If you're not going to back-up your opinion right away you might as well not post. This isn't a poll nor is it Firebot. One-sentence posts clearly don't cut it here.
|M| King Arthur said:
Stop making new accounts you fucktard.
For my own opinion, I only have one kind of ethic for a Pokemon (meta)game. I want it to be fun to play. Does allowing or banning Hidden Power make Pokemon more or less fun to play? Maybe. But we don't know at this point, as Misty said. What we can do is look at the theoretical balance.
For Grounds walling Electrics again, take a close look at what DP does with Ground-types. They made every one of them resist a new type of Spikes. They created a Rock-type Cross Chop. They got you another good Pokemon with Sand Stream (which they gave great stats as well). They evolved Rhydon into possibly one of the most powerful standards ever. I'd say Grounds have got their fair share, I'd rather throw these Electrics or Fire-types that need Hidden Power a bone.
That very literally becomes "pokemon beats pokemon with move", and I'm pretty sure I and everyone else wouldn't really mind seeing HP Ground Raikou because it lets the expected-to-be popular Gliscor counter Raikou 100% of the time. You also need two Calm Minds to OHKO Dugtrio, and Swampert doesn't care at all, and Donphan doesn't really care either. Flygon and Claydol aren't really expected to be too popular but you also can't do anything about those either.
If Raikou wants to be able to beat other electrics (besides Zapdos) and, like, Steelix and Camerupt better, it can go right ahead. It will lose much of its sweeping capabilities if it doesn't have HP Grass or Ice, though...all to beat Electivire with HP Ground.
To be honest, if we're not going to ban DT or OHKO or Wobby, I really don't see the purpose of banning HP on competitor. All of the above are infinetely more broken than 70 HP Elecs.
If hidden power were banned though, I imagine electrics would replace the slot with Thunder Wave (Magnezone with Luster Cannon, Zapdos with Extrasensory, Raikou with Shadow Ball). Infernape would simply switch to Stone Edge or Thunderpunch, and Sceptile with Focus Blast. You'd only rework a few standards and screw around alot with UU. So many CB Birds already lost Hidden Power that it really has a minimal effect whether you include it or not. No Electrics or Infernape are particularly game breaking, and neither is HP.
If hidden power were banned though, I imagine electrics would replace the slot with Thunder Wave (Magnezone with Luster Cannon, Zapdos with Extrasensory, Raikou with Shadow Ball). Infernape would simply switch to Stone Edge or Thunderpunch, and Sceptile with Focus Blast. You'd only rework a few standards and screw around alot with UU. So many CB Birds already lost Hidden Power that it really has a minimal effect whether you include it or not. No Electrics or Infernape are particularly game breaking, and neither is HP.
The only things I'd love to see Hidden Power truly banned on would be Baton Pass Zapdos (Why hello there finishing the game each time per Zappy) and the wandering Gerbils (Capturing them first time in Colosseum pre-master ball on the first encounter or capturing a close to mingene one in Fr/Lg with stats set at the start of the game or whenever they get set) which make finding them statistically stupid. You can't even use the breeding argument on those two anyhow. Now, non-baton pass Zapdos you can reset to your heart's content for. But a Maxgene HP BP Zapdos or Raikou reeks of unrealisticness.
And this is basically the trouble with Hidden Power as it pertains to discussing counter strategies, etc, because at the end of the day Pokemon DOES beat Pokemon with move, and just because standards exist doesn't mean people won't deviate from those standards. It's still a risk you have to take into account.