Let's ban Hidden Power

tenchi17 said:
Ok, so Toy supports evasion and OHKOs I take it.

Good to know =]
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While I'm posting unpopular opinions, I'll come out in support of evasion and OHKOs as well, provided (and this is a big if, here) all tournament-type battles are done in a best-two-out-of-three style. OHKOs are annoying, but the chance that you'll win two battles out of three with them is slim. People don't want Double Team because they don't want to have a low-power, never-miss move on their team. Evasion is a valid strategy, and one that is easily foiled with the right moves. People just don't want to lose the move slot.

For battles that aren't for a tournament or some such thing, if you get beaten due to a OHKO move, oh well. You probably won another battle because a OHKO move failed to activate. It'll average out over time.
 
Good idea, imo. It makes Wifi more fare. Game Sharkers atleast lose the one option that mostly nobody else had aside from themselves.
 
Footnote said:
While I'm posting unpopular opinions, I'll come out in support of evasion and OHKOs as well, provided (and this is a big if, here) all tournament-type battles are done in a best-two-out-of-three style. OHKOs are annoying, but the chance that you'll win two battles out of three with them is slim. People don't want Double Team because they don't want to have a low-power, never-miss move on their team. Evasion is a valid strategy, and one that is easily foiled with the right moves. People just don't want to lose the move slot.

For battles that aren't for a tournament or some such thing, if you get beaten due to a OHKO move, oh well. You probably won another battle because a OHKO move failed to activate. It'll average out over time.
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Yikes, man. We already had a whole thread on this a while back (did you read it while lurking?), and the opinion closest to yours that seemed... sane... was maybe allowing only one OHKO per Pokemon but never with Sleep Talk. That's a pretty convoluted rule, though.

As for evasion, though, I think I stand with the vast majority when I say that not only is Double Team a crappy move on most Pokemon, but that no one enjoys whiffing for ten turns at a time with some bulky thing with Leftovers outstalling thier team.

Yes, there are lots of good counters to evasion: haze, phaze, lock-on, --- accuracy moves, etc. However, most people (I can claim this safely) would prefer to just ban Double Team and be done with it. I'm one of 'em.
 
ANinyMouse said:
By no coincidence, Wormadam learns HP by level up.
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Yeah, I could definitely go for Hidden Power only on Pokémon that naturally learn it. They tend to be a bit underpowered anyhow, with the exceptions of Slowking, Medicham and possibly Gastrodon. Wait, that's most of the families that learn Hidden Power naturally. Ah, well. I'd still go for it.
 
What about Nu battlers with Unown?
J/k, on a serious note, I guess ^clausing^ it is pretty fair, but do not ban it like Double Team.

^option to challenge opponents, and recieve challenges^
 
My opinions about OHKOs and Evasion aren't nearly as strong as my opinions about Hidden Power. If they were banned, I wouldn't complain. It's not like I think they're necessary for a good match, and I agree that they can make matches really boring/lame. If we did institute that convoluted OHKO rule, I'd be cool with that, too. I don't think I'd ever want more than one OHKO move on my entire team, if any.

I didn't catch that thread, but I apologize regardless for getting off-topic (Especially in my own thread! Heh.)
 
ANinyMouse said:
Yes, there are lots of good counters to evasion: haze, phaze, lock-on, --- accuracy moves, etc. However, most people (I can claim this safely) would prefer to just ban Double Team and be done with it. I'm one of 'em.
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Why is this kind of logic accepted? "There are plenty of counters to X, but I just don't like it, so let's ban it!"

On the topic of Hidden Power: it would be fine if people had to put it in the time to *get* the Hidden Power, as it would greatly reduce the impact it has on the game. Netbattle/Competitor allowing for instant team building just means that they're a different game.

Going for the "Hidden Power is hard to get" route doesn't work if you don't do the same for one time TMs and such, so I'd have to change my stance from a previous topic on HP Legends and the like. Getting Substitute/Rest on all of your legends might not be so easy if they're not purchasable, but no one's suggesting we go *that* far to make the simulators like the real game. Just play WiFi without sharking if you want that. NB/Competitor are about optimal conditions, which technically isn't all bad as it pushes the strategy of the game to its limit, and lets people see things that might have never been found in the "slow-motion" metagame of the cart.

With that in mind, Hidden Power is a move Zapdos learns, so as long we're playing theory-mon on NB/Competitor, it should be able to use it...although Double Team being a move Zapdos learns doesn't seem to be good enough for some people.
 
if hidden power gets banned then the move names nasty plot and u turn should also be banned. Seriously it was put in by nintendo to use its been proven you can get perfect hidden powers so why ban it.
 
Does HP break the metagame?
It doesn't, it just gives special Pokes a shitty base 70 move of the type they need for some coverage, and whose use will be even more limited in D/P due to Physical Pokémon losing it and loads of new special moves.

END OF STORY
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I guess...
 
clausing things like sleep clause, freeze clause, Evasion and OHKO are obvious as they just toy with the foundation of the metagame. Hidden Power just adds versatility to pokemon. Evasion and OHKO are already banned and are normal clauses. Banning hidden power is just silly. =)
 
latinoheat said:
if hidden power gets banned then the move names nasty plot and u turn should also be banned. Seriously it was put in by nintendo to use its been proven you can get perfect hidden powers so why ban it.
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Why does this work in a Hidden Power topic but not an evasion/OHKO topic? iirc you were against both in other threads.

Toy said:
clausing things like sleep clause, freeze clause, Evasion and OHKO are obvious as they just toy with the foundation of the metagame. Hidden Power just adds versatility to pokemon. Evasion and OHKO are already banned and are normal clauses. Banning hidden power is just silly. =)
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Evasion/OHKO already being banned is a reason for them to be banned...asdf

Hidden Power itself *does* toy with the "foundation of the metagame". Electrics being able to always SE hit Grounds, who are "supposed" to be their counter, toys with the metagame a hell of a lot I'd say. Anything be able to stick HP Ice on and instantly stop Garchomp toys with things a LOT. Gengar still getting a special ice move even after Ice Punch being moved to physical...Calm Mind Raikou being able to stop any grass or ground type it wants with Hidden Power...Infernape saying "Oops! I can't hit Garchomp very well with the moves I'm supposed to learn, let me use HP Ice!" Tell me how Hidden Power is silly again, when it can do all of these things?

I'm not even for HP being banned on Competitor, but I just hate seeing this logic only work for Hidden Power and not other things.
 
Arguing that Jolteon can Hit ground types super effective isnt toying with the metagame is just silly. Evasion and OHKO deserve to be banned for obvious reasons. I have yet to hear a decent argument as to why Hidden Power should be banned. If you arent prepared for obvious hidden powers on pokemon with limited move pools, you wont win either way. Hidden Power doesnt make the game unbalenced. Its just an attack that makes pokemon cover weaknesses better.
 
latinoheat said:
because hidden power isn't game breaking for one.
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Oh, well ok then.

Toy said:
Arguing that Jolteon can Hit ground types super effective isnt toying with the metagame is just silly. Evasion and OHKO deserve to be banned for obvious reasons. I have yet to hear a decent argument as to why Hidden Power should be banned. If you arent prepared for obvious hidden powers on pokemon with limited move pools, you wont win either way. Hidden Power doesnt make the game unbalenced. Its just an attack that makes pokemon cover weaknesses better.
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Oh, right, it's obvious, nevermind then. Jolteon hitting its only weakness for SE damage isn't so big of a deal. It's obvious! You won't win either way if your Swampert can't handle HP Grass Tyranitar, or if your Houndoom dies to HP Fighting Azelf...or if Garchomp is killed by HP Ice [random pokemon]...because it's obvious...and...

Yeah, not seeing how that works. Evasion/OHKOs being banned for obvious reasons while Hidden Power is ok because it's obvious...obviously I'm missing something here.
 
Well, you certainly have a persuasive argument, tenchi. I'm not partial to the move, but I was never really against it, either. The fact that Smogon had a tourney without HP had piqued my interest, however.

I wouldn't mind trying it out, though, like I said, I never really used it in-game as it was. I used to use it all the time on GSC NetBattle, though, when it was fairly new and I played often.
 
name 10 pokemon that have an effect on the metagame that also have hidden power as part of their staple sets. Fuck i couldn't think of 5 .5 pokemon is hardly groundbreaking.

HP Fighting hasn't been seen that much on Azleaf as it has better options.
The only thing using HP Ice is Mixed Infernarape
I think its pretty much agreed on that houndoom has hp grass/ice in its staple set,houndoom is hardly changing the metagame.
People have been using focus bomb on gengar and zam as opposed to hp fighting.

So its really only the electrics that make considerable use out of it if you took that away from them i doubt either raikou or jolteon would be anything but BL.
As opposed to currently where the only things it really effects are Donphan who would get use either,rhyperior who is game breaking enough as it is let alone without one less move that can hurt it, and swampert who has been established as one of the top OU pokemon with or without HP in existence.
 
You mean that those are the currently-used Pokémon that are affected by Hidden Power. Who knows how many weren't used often because of Hidden Power on OU Pokémon.
 
If anything. Hidden Power in ADV was more gamebreaking than in D/P. But yet again we are discussing things about a metagame that isnt established.
 
Toy said:
If anything. Hidden Power in ADV was more gamebreaking than in D/P. But yet again we are discussing things about a metagame that isnt established.
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Agreed. Perhaps we've gotten all we're going to out of this discussion until Diamond and Pearl have been out for a while.
 
I mean tenchi can try to argue that HP is game breaking and it may be. But personally and I think that alot of others feel this way about it that in no way it is game breaking
 
latinoheat said:
name 10 pokemon that have an effect on the metagame that also have hidden power as part of their staple sets. Fuck i couldn't think of 5 .5 pokemon is hardly groundbreaking.

The only thing using HP Ice is Mixed Infernarape
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much as i agree with your overall stance on the matter, it is important to note that Gengar sees use of HP Ice as well with the loss of Ice Punch. realistically speaking, theres almost no chance that a max-base 70 power move will get banned or even claused. you're welcome to bitch about its use if you really want to, but nothing's gonna be done about it.
 
Zero. Really, I can't think of a single Pokemon that isn't seeing use simply because of Hidden Power.

Pokemon aren't kept out of OU because of Hidden Power, it's because of stats and movepools.

For example, Quagsire isn't UU because of HP Grass, it's because Swampert has better stats.
 
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