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Let's catalogue the ways in which PS does not replicate cart mechanics
- Thread starter Ortheore
- Start date
I understand, but if we remove the invulnerability part that made Dig/Fly banned, doesn't that mean that we're also obligated to fix moves like Focus Energy and secondary status effect moves?
We're not obligated to do anything other than what we feel is convenient or appropriate, within the context of selecting for a playable competitive metagame
So that's the argument. If we play by cart rules then Dig, Fly, Psywave, Counter, etc have to be banned.
If we assume Stadium rules for all games, we don't have to worry.
If we play by Custom Patch rules and fix the Psywave Desync problem, then why wouldn't we want to fix Focus Energy and secondary status moves?
Also, I just realized that if we do cart accurate then the best case scenario would be contuining the ban on Metronome (since it can copy a desync attack), Dig/Fly, Psywave, Counter, Mirror Move, and banning teams where one or more of their Pokemon has Ice Beam/Blizzard and a Fire Attack (aside from Fire Spin).
Actually wouldn't we have to also ban Mimic, Transform, and Mirror Move anyway since it can copy a move that would create a potential thaw desync problem by cart accurate rules?
DDX2 move bans are unnecessary for dealing with thaw desyncs. Since the pokemon being thawed needs to act second to trigger a desync, it needs to be in play at the start of the turn in order for this to be an issue, as if it's switched in, it won't be acting after being thawed. This means that the player using a Fire move would know that there's a frozen pokemon in play and that using a fire move would probably thaw and potentially desync. Therefore, a desync is incredibly unlikely to occur because knowingly thawing the opposing pokemon is a terrible play. Furthermore, we could simply implement a rule along the lines of "don't deliberately thaw opposing pokemon" and it would resolve the issue while having almost no significant impact on play.
The only impacts that I can see from the rule against thawing is that it could be used to guarantee a subsequent attack wouldn't be a Fire attack, and that if you freeze a Ghost, there can be some scenarios where it ruins sweeps or even breaks down due to some pokemon relying on Fire/Normal coverage. As for the rule breaking down, that would only be the case if the player had literally no option to damage the opponent except for using a Fire attack, which is extremely unlikely to occur, and shouldn't hold much weight
The only impacts that I can see from the rule against thawing is that it could be used to guarantee a subsequent attack wouldn't be a Fire attack, and that if you freeze a Ghost, there can be some scenarios where it ruins sweeps or even breaks down due to some pokemon relying on Fire/Normal coverage. As for the rule breaking down, that would only be the case if the player had literally no option to damage the opponent except for using a Fire attack, which is extremely unlikely to occur, and shouldn't hold much weight
Most of the changes I’m suggesting would actually make the game better, but people are against them simply because it’s not what they’re used to. Removing freeze clause is debatable, but allowing tradebacks is literally giving Pokémon more moves and giving players more viable options. How could that possibly not make the game better to play?
Fixing focus energy would be literally fixing a glitch that got fixed later. It would make Pokémon like machamp better, and some might argue that reflect may be less ubiquitous with focus energy jolteon everywhere.
You’ve just said yourself that freeze clause makes little difference, yet people were happy to change game mechanics for it. Yet these changes clearly make the game better by giving Pokémon more viable moves but people don’t want them? I can’t think of a single explanation other than the fact to these people, sticking to what they’re used to is more important than making the meta better.
In no way do more options inherently make a meta better- imagine lovely kiss lax if you need an example of tradebacks potentially being detrimental (or at least hurting diversity).
Tracebacks + All sleep moves banned. It removes the clause to a better ban, viable in console and more "diverse" metagame.
Anyway, I honestly feel like if you want to do this really close to console, I believe that doing Stadium No team Preview should be the way to go, just for the fact we would have the clauses available(although iirc you cannot randomly select them in Stadium 1, that's just a feature of 2?, someone correct me on this), and you can "circle around" team preview by making both players not look at each others part of the screen.
Except... I'm pretty sure you could also "circle around" RBY clauses by implementing the ACE patch I've talked about, so you could still have claused RBY without going with Stadium. Stadium also has the issue with the Pokemon's exact HP being displayed. You'd need to obstruct certain parts of the screen in addition to making sure players can't preview the other's teams. And if that were accepted, now ADV players have to deal with a precedent that could affect them because the same "circle around" tactics could apply to ADV using XD instead of Emerald, "fixing" Sleep Talk mechanics (among other things, iirc Tracing Intimidate works in XD so Porygon2 and to a lesser extent Gardevoir become better)
As for Tradebacks... we really need to properly explore that sometime. I constantly hear about the LK Snorlax boogeyman, but have never seen any evidence of it ruining the metagame. The way people speak of it they act like it'd be worse than UU Tentacruel.
As for Tradebacks... we really need to properly explore that sometime. I constantly hear about the LK Snorlax boogeyman, but have never seen any evidence of it ruining the metagame. The way people speak of it they act like it'd be worse than UU Tentacruel.
Stadium is an objectively more competitive meta. There’s a bit less RNG because crit rates got standardised and substitute is everywhere.Focus energy and hyper beam glitches are fixed which makes less games determined by a hyper beam vs body slam 50/50s.
I’d rather we played tournaments on stadium mechanics because it’s basically how the game was meant to be played but people are used to cartridge now so it’s a lost cause.
I don’t see LK lax being that centralising. Sleep functions differently in RBY compared to GSC. In GSC getting sleep early is not that important, and the reason why LK is good on lax is because he can sleep a counter then belly drum and sweep a team. In RBY you have normally slept something before lax comes out, and if you run LK you’re missing out on an attack or reflect/rest which is quite costly. Sleep doesn’t automatically make good Pokémon great. Sing was always a fringe option on chansey for years.
It’d be interesting to see how a trade backs meta would develop. People always say that the “community” didn’t want tradebacks but in reality most of the players who played back then don’t play anymore.
There’s plenty of people who play now that want them, but I don’t really know how you instigate those types of changes with Smogon and Showdown.
You cited literally the only example of bad tradeback that everyone agreed upon banning, good job. But nevertheless, I agree that more options do not imply better meta, unless we are dealing with RBY that has so few options that a bit of variety can only make things better.
But anyway, tradebacks are illegal because of bad tiering decisions in the past and the conservatism approach of the council afte that, doesn't matter if they are bad or not for the meta (even though they are not).
There are a few more Pokemon that can learn Amnesia through tradebacks aside from Hypno.
Clefable, Nidoking, Persian, Kingler and Tangela
Plus you get some new Sleep-Inducing Users:
Lovely Kiss
Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Poliwrath, Victreebell, and Snorlax
Hypnosis:
Ninetales, Persian, Golduck, Rapidash, and Mr. Mime
Sing:
Raichu
and plenty more changes which shakes up everything.
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I for one loathe having a working Substitute, which is why I prefer RBY to Stadium, though I still think Stadium is worth playing. The game just becomes too stally and the cost of breaking out of that stall scenario is often very troublesome. I honestly prefer Reflect spam. Also I dislike the sleep nerf in Stadium- I think that with sleep being restricted via sleep clause (cart-accurate or not), it's really powerful, but not OP and makes for interesting gameplay in terms of how you play around it, and that just doesn't exist in Stadium
Is wrap programmed to work on Ghost types?
I was watching this Let's play video, and the NPCs Ekans was able to wraplock Gastly. Granted it did no damage, but it's interesting it is able to do it.
Edit: Since I don't know if it plays at the second selected, the example is at the 3:42 mark.
Edit2: Also Bind by Tangela at 8:18
I was watching this Let's play video, and the NPCs Ekans was able to wraplock Gastly. Granted it did no damage, but it's interesting it is able to do it.
Edit: Since I don't know if it plays at the second selected, the example is at the 3:42 mark.
Edit2: Also Bind by Tangela at 8:18
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Pretty sure it is, as this has been known for some time
Checking the source or try it by yourself. Also, yes, this is implemented. https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/blob/master/data/mods/gen1/scripts.js#L728
The few poketubers playing on tgbdual and project 64 are the RBY community.
@Dre89 said @Makkususu I don't think we have to discriminate players based on where they play Gen 1. In my opinion, anyone is free to play Gen 1 on simulator, real cartridges or Virtual Console without fearing to be looked down by someone. By the way, I play on simulator, cartridges and Virtual Console for those who care.
I don't look down on them, As a matter of fact I admire those that still have buddies to play on those.