Metagame LGPE OverUsed

[dhelmise]

12/09/18 VR Update

Howdy, here's the VR update. Here's what was voted on:

Mega Blastoise C+ -> B-
Alolan Dugtrio B- -> B+
Eevee-S S -> A+
Mega Gengar B- -> B+
Mega Kangaskhan UR -> C-
Alolan Ninetales B- -> C+
Omastar B- -> C+
Pikachu-S B- -> C+
Mega Pinsir UR -> C+
Poliwrath C+ -> B-
Alolan Sandslash B- -> C+
Snorlax B- -> B+
Venomoth B+ -> B-

Here are the results:

Rises

C+ -> B-

B- -> B+

B- -> B+

UR -> C-

UR -> C-

C+ -> B-

B- -> B+

Drops

S -> A+

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

B+ -> B-

here is the spreadsheet. the main post will be updated soon

 

[Vengeance417]

I think the example set for Alolan Muk in the Viability Rankings should be changed. It's pretty much universally agreed that Fire Blast is better than Fire Punch since it hits Melmetal much harder, and Mega Drain has become a viable option on it to hit Rhydon and other Ground-types like Sandslash on the switch, especially with the fact that Sassy A-Muk is faster than neutral Rhydon.

 

[kryppizor]

who to add to this team?(i dont have Melmetal and Mew :( )

https://pokepast.es/c4b7789a44a964f3

 

[Vengeance417]

who to add to this team?(i dont have Melmetal and Mew :( )

https://pokepast.es/c4b7789a44a964f3

This is an Overused thread for Pokemon Let's Go, so Mewtwo isn't allowed. (Mega) Alakazam can easily take that slot if you want a fast, hard-hitting Psychic-type, and I recommend using an Alolan Muk to better deal with opposing Mega Alakazam that use Dazzling Gleam. I also recommend Sludge Bomb over Toxic on Venusaur as you'll want a way to hit opposing Venusaur and hit other Grasses like Alokan Exeggutor super effectively, as well as Zapdos neutrally.

 

[Dilwar]

Mega Gengar should be A rank AT LEAST. I'd argue for S rank, but one step at a time.

It is both one of the fastest and strongest (only M-Alakazam has a slightly higher base offensive stat) in the entire metagame. Its coverage is great with Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, and Thunderbolt. It also has neat utility options in Will-O-Wisp (very nice to punish A-Muk switch ins, something M-Alakazam can't do btw), and the Protect + Disable combo.

There's just no way this Pokemon is B rank. It's an absolute joke that some of these Pokemon in A rank are ranked above it.

Also Eevee is overrated as fuck. Sure it has utility like no other, but it is slow and frail as fuck. 99% of the time, the thing can only use 1 move per game before dying. If this was the candies meta where everything is bulky as fuck, then it'd be top tier, sure. But here, it's simply not. From my experience, M-Gengar is 10x more potent than Eevee.

 

[Vengeance417]

C+ > C-

What exactly does Mega Charizard Y do in this meta that Moltres, or even special Zard X (which I've been using lately, it's actually kinda fire), already can't do? I have not seen one at all and have only seen X when I see Charizard in team preview, which is probably for good reason. Zard Y is basically a harder-hitting Moltres without U-turn and less overall bulk, and special Zard X already 2HKOes Rhydon with a combination of Fire Blast on the switchin followed by Dragon Pulse, and still OHKOes Melmetal with Fire Blast, all without being 4x weak to Stealth Rock and Rock Slide. Unless there's some niche that I don't know about that Zard Y has over the other Fire-types in the tier, I don't see what warrants its C+ ranking.

Edit: I also agree with Mega Gengar being severely underrated. That Protect + Disable combination is nasty af and actually lets it 1v1 a-muk if it clicks Crunch into the Protect.

 

[JohnYiu]

so far i've been enjoying this meta game (haven't really played mon for like 6 months)
from what i've seen, this meta is p fun, but speaking of balanced... def more balanced than newer gens esp like gen 7, cus there're less mons and NO Z-MOVE lol

i actually wish there were hazard removal. With hazard removal, fire type mons are more viable in the meta, esp mons like charizard, moltres. but so far this meta game is simple and fun to me.

here's a fun team and an interesting replay (got haxed then haxed back lol)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/china-gen7letsgoou-131530

 

[dandecember]

Mega Gengar should be A rank AT LEAST. I'd argue for S rank, but one step at a time.

It is both one of the fastest and strongest (only M-Alakazam has a slightly higher base offensive stat) in the entire metagame. Its coverage is great with Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, and Thunderbolt. It also has neat utility options in Will-O-Wisp (very nice to punish A-Muk switch ins, something M-Alakazam can't do btw), and the Protect + Disable combo.

There's just no way this Pokemon is B rank. It's an absolute joke that some of these Pokemon in A rank are ranked above it.

Also Eevee is overrated as fuck. Sure it has utility like no other, but it is slow and frail as fuck. 99% of the time, the thing can only use 1 move per game before dying. If this was the candies meta where everything is bulky as fuck, then it'd be top tier, sure. But here, it's simply not. From my experience, M-Gengar is 10x more potent than Eevee.

Mega Gengar is really strong. I can see why one would argue that. It just fills a similar role to Zam, which is absolutely ridiculous in this meta. That being said, let's keep it in perspective that it is much easier than Eevee to use, due to having great offensive stats. You could basically just smack things with it and still do alright. If there is any reason to use Eevee, it is the fact that so much relies on Rest for recovery/status removal. Even if it's being used sub-optimally, that makes it very strong. Support mons can definitely be just as strong, or even stronger than dominating offensive mons.

 

[kryppizor]

This is an Overused thread for Pokemon Let's Go, so Mewtwo isn't allowed. (Mega) Alakazam can easily take that slot if you want a fast, hard-hitting Psychic-type, and I recommend using an Alolan Muk to better deal with opposing Mega Alakazam that use Dazzling Gleam. I also recommend Sludge Bomb over Toxic on Venusaur as you'll want a way to hit opposing Venusaur and hit other Grasses like Alokan Exeggutor super effectively, as well as Zapdos neutrally.

https://pokepast.es/4132a354782562b1
corrected like this?

 

[Ryolain]

Mega Gengar is really strong. I can see why one would argue that. It just fills a similar role to Zam, which is absolutely ridiculous in this meta. That being said, let's keep it in perspective that it is much easier than Eevee to use, due to having great offensive stats. You could basically just smack things with it and still do alright. If there is any reason to use Eevee, it is the fact that so much relies on Rest for recovery/status removal. Even if it's being used sub-optimally, that makes it very strong. Support mons can definitely be just as strong, or even stronger than dominating offensive mons.

But when evaluating a supportive mon, their actual effectiveness should still be taken into consideration. Just having the unique ability to remove status doesn’t mean a lot if it’s inconsistent. To compare to something like Toxapex in OU, Pex has been consistently ranked high and was even S at one point because it supports its team so effectively thanks to huge bulk and good typing that allow it to check a number of threats, a variety of support options and a good ability that allows it to pivot without losing momentum. Rest is becoming less and less popular as people forgo recovery in favorite of more offensive strategies and I find people are also moving away from trying to clear status in favor of using type immunities to play around it, in part because Eevee is hard to bring in frequently. Often that team slot would be better spent on something that can take advantage of free turns to apply offensive pressure and thus play around status rather than spending 3 turns trying to get Eevee, having it heal and then switching out (or most likely dying if it stays in).

 

[JustHulio]

Mega Gengar should be A rank AT LEAST. I'd argue for S rank, but one step at a time.

It is both one of the fastest and strongest (only M-Alakazam has a slightly higher base offensive stat) in the entire metagame. Its coverage is great with Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, and Thunderbolt. It also has neat utility options in Will-O-Wisp (very nice to punish A-Muk switch ins, something M-Alakazam can't do btw), and the Protect + Disable combo.

There's just no way this Pokemon is B rank. It's an absolute joke that some of these Pokemon in A rank are ranked above it.

Also Eevee is overrated as fuck. Sure it has utility like no other, but it is slow and frail as fuck. 99% of the time, the thing can only use 1 move per game before dying. If this was the candies meta where everything is bulky as fuck, then it'd be top tier, sure. But here, it's simply not. From my experience, M-Gengar is 10x more potent than Eevee.

You’re right about M. Gengar can act as an offensive role like M. Alakazam and M. Aerodactyl. But I don’t think it can function that role properly. I mean there’s a lot of Pokemon almost same as M. Gengar can function that role properly
(Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl). Also, M. Gengar can also be powerful as a utility, carrying Will-O-Wisp can check a lot of pokemon that focus on being an attacker. Carrying Hex can be really powerful with the Will-O-Wisp. Sludge bomb can destroy fairy types. Protect or Thunderbolt can also be used.

There’s no reason to put Mega Gengar higher on the rank so I disagree. Also it can be powerful if you have good team with it

(Also if you’re saying that Eevee-Starter is slow and frail. That’s why most team use Eevee with Protect, etc.)

This is my first time posting a viability post so yeah.

 

[ayevon]

Mega Gengar 2HKOs the whole tier besides two mons: Alolan Muk and Snorlax (which gets 3HKOd). Gengar also can better work past these counters using Wisp or Protect + Disable. The 130 speed tier is still amazing, with the only relevant things faster or tying being Mega Aero and Zam and regular Aero. I think WoW also gives regular Gengar more utility than regular Zam if you choose to mega something else on your team. Even factoring the opportunity cost of not using 150 speed mega and the ubiquity of them on opposing teams, a mon that outspeeds and 2HKOs all but a few mons shouldn't be ranked lower than stuff like Eevee, Nidoqueen, and Rhydon.

 

[dandecember]

But when evaluating a supportive mon, their actual effectiveness should still be taken into consideration. Just having the unique ability to remove status doesn’t mean a lot if it’s inconsistent. To compare to something like Toxapex in OU, Pex has been consistently ranked high and was even S at one point because it supports its team so effectively thanks to huge bulk and good typing that allow it to check a number of threats, a variety of support options and a good ability that allows it to pivot without losing momentum. Rest is becoming less and less popular as people forgo recovery in favorite of more offensive strategies and I find people are also moving away from trying to clear status in favor of using type immunities to play around it, in part because Eevee is hard to bring in frequently. Often that team slot would be better spent on something that can take advantage of free turns to apply offensive pressure and thus play around status rather than spending 3 turns trying to get Eevee, having it heal and then switching out (or most likely dying if it stays in).

This was a solid response. I don't agree 100%, but this should help people see the support role in a different light. There really is some complexity to it.

 

[Dilwar]

You’re right about M. Gengar can act as an offensive role like M. Alakazam and M. Aerodactyl. But I don’t think it can function that role properly. I mean there’s a lot of Pokemon almost same as M. Gengar can function that role properly
(Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl). Also, M. Gengar can also be powerful as a utility, carrying Will-O-Wisp can check a lot of pokemon that focus on being an attacker. Carrying Hex can be really powerful with the Will-O-Wisp. Sludge bomb can destroy fairy types. Protect or Thunderbolt can also be used.

There’s no reason to put Mega Gengar higher on the rank so I disagree. Also it can be powerful if you have good team with it

(Also if you’re saying that Eevee-Starter is slow and frail. That’s why most team use Eevee with Protect, etc.)

This is my first time posting a viability post so yeah.

Idk wtf you're saying tbh

 

[MikePX]

Hello!

I'm new to strategy and i would love to play this team :
"
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Substitute

Gyarados is a really good lead because it beats almost all stealth rock setters and it removes its rock weakness. Waterfall is for aero/rhydon/nidos and it allowes it to beat common rockers putting you in a 6-5 lead (everyone always suicide rocks). Crunch lets you hit psychics like mew/slowbro/starmie/alakazam for maximum damage. Earthquake is needed for doing about 45% to melmetal and hitting muk for more damage. Sub lets you take advantage of the status spam in this meta. Jolly is needed to outspeed venu/eevee/nidoqueen. There is no switchins to gyarados so take advantage of that.

Eevee-Starter
Ability: Run Away
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Sizzly Slide
- Sappy Seed
- Sparkly Swirl
- Protect

Eevee is the only cleric in the meta, so its basically a given on every team except HO. This set is standard and there is nothing special about it. Eevee is the primary switchin to defensive mew on this team and it helps wake up melmetal.

Nidoqueen
Ability: Poison Point
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Super Fang
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock

Nidoqueen was the best rocker for this team as it synergizes so well with gyarados. Nido helps hardwall zapdos and check melmetal and fighters. Earthquake + superfang guarantees to take away half hp of every mon because all ghosts are weak to eq. Ice punch does the most damage to zapdos and jolly is for outspeeding eevee and non speed nature gyarados and venusaur. You almost never want to lead nido and want to use it as a reactionary mon, be careful for uturns on zap.

Mew
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 50
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psychic
- Dragon Tail

Mew is another mon that is needed on every team. This set is fairly standard with willo allowing it to beat muk and melmetal, dtail preventing sweepers like cm alakazam, and psychic for stab that hit everything else hard.

Melmetal
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Rest

Melmetal yet again another mon required on every team. This set is standard, double iron bash/eq hits about everything in the tier really hard and twave can punish switches and allow melmetal to flinch hax. Last slot can be rest or icepunch if you want to hit zapdos harder. Melmetal checks about everything in the tier and you should try to save it for late game when zapdos is gone.

Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
"
Unfortunately, i dont have Eevee as starter, i dont have melmetal and my mew has not the best nature. I already have nidoqueen, zapdos and Gyarados who are ready to fight. Who can i add to replace the three mentionned above please ? :)

Thanks!

 

[Dilwar]

Mega Gengar is really strong. I can see why one would argue that. It just fills a similar role to Zam, which is absolutely ridiculous in this meta. That being said, let's keep it in perspective that it is much easier than Eevee to use, due to having great offensive stats. You could basically just smack things with it and still do alright. If there is any reason to use Eevee, it is the fact that so much relies on Rest for recovery/status removal. Even if it's being used sub-optimally, that makes it very strong. Support mons can definitely be just as strong, or even stronger than dominating offensive mons.

It has some pretty notable distinctions over M-Alakazam. I'll list some from the top of my head:

1) The ability to use Will-O-Wisp to cripple A-Muk, or Protect + Disable to overcome it. Both of these strategies allow it to eventually 1v1 A-Muk. M-Alakazam is hopeless against A-Muk.

2) Ability to 2HKO Melmetal, a premier Pokemon in the metagame. With M-Alakazam, Melmetal can usually switch in once or twice (dependent on whether your opponent uses Psychic or Shadow Ball on switch in) and threaten the OHKO in return.

3) The existence of Will-O-Wisp is also a nice mid-ground play, and really eases prediction when the opponent is carrying one of A-Muk, Snorlax, and Melmetal (99% of teams will have at least one of these).

4) The Ghost typing is also a neat perk, as with Taunt, it can overcome Chansey. With M-Alakazam, Chansey can still win out with Seismic Toss.

5) Superior STAB moves as Ghost + Poison > mono Psychic.

Just looking at all the available Pokemon, there really isn't a true, reliable counter to M-Gengar. This fact alone warrants a rank higher than B, at the least. Also, the type differences between the two of them (Gengar and Alakazam) only distinguishes them further.

I do agree that overall they share similar roles in being fast, powerful cleaners, but I just wanted to make the point that M-Alakazam doesn't straight up outclass M-Gengar. M-Alakazam's advantages over M-Gengar are Calm Mind and a faster Speed, but I don't think is enough to outright state it's simply superior to M-Gengar. In my opinion, they should both be ranked together in S.

As for Eevee, Ryolain already covered my response, but I'd like to reinforce that being the only cleric in the tier doesn't automatically warrant an S rank (which it previously was, which I found absolutely ridiculous btw), nor an A rank. Personally, an upper B rank is fair for me. I say this because, again, it really isn't an effective cleric, and very often has to sacrifice itself just to do so.

TL;DR - M-Gengar has enough distinctions from M-Alakazam to be ranked independently of it (as in, the existence of M-Alakazam shouldn't deduce the viability of M-Gengar).

 

[eg0n]

Any recommended moveset + nature for M-Gengar?

 

[Vengeance417]

Any recommended moveset + nature for M-Gengar?

Timid's preferred to tie with opposing M-Gengar and regular Aerodactyl, as well being able to outspeed regular Alakazam. Protect + Disable is a rather nasty combination of moves that let it take on most of its checks/counters like A-Muk, for instance, but 3 attacks (3rd attack most likely being Thunderbolt)+ Wisp/Taunt or even 2 Attacks + Wisp + Taunt could work, also. Hypnosis might be a cool tech to explore, as well.

 

[Ryolain]

Timid's preferred to tie with opposing M-Gengar and regular Aerodactyl, as well being able to outspeed regular Alakazam. Protect + Disable is a rather nasty combination of moves that let it take on most of its checks/counters like A-Muk, for instance, but 3 attacks (3rd attack most likely being Thunderbolt)+ Wisp/Taunt or even 2 Attacks + Wisp + Taunt could work, also. Hypnosis might be a cool tech to explore, as well.

Does Taunt have any notable targets in this meta? For most offensive mons in standard it’s to prevent recovery or Defog but those don’t really exist here unless you’re trying to block Rest. As far as blocking status, Gengar is immune to Toxic, doesn’t particularly care about WoW aside from the chip damage and probably doesn’t want to stay in anyway against the primary user of Twave, Melmetal. It doesn’t outspeed MZam to prevent CM, the main user of setup. The only thing I can think of offhand is MVenu to block Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. If blocking moves is you goal with MGar, Disable seems like the far superior option.

 

[Duckster]

It has some pretty notable distinctions over M-Alakazam. I'll list some from the top of my head:

1) The ability to use Will-O-Wisp to cripple A-Muk, or Protect + Disable to overcome it. Both of these strategies allow it to eventually 1v1 A-Muk. M-Alakazam is hopeless against A-Muk.

2) Ability to 2HKO Melmetal, a premier Pokemon in the metagame. With M-Alakazam, Melmetal can usually switch in once or twice (dependent on whether your opponent uses Psychic or Shadow Ball on switch in) and threaten the OHKO in return.

3) The existence of Will-O-Wisp is also a nice mid-ground play, and really eases prediction when the opponent is carrying one of A-Muk, Snorlax, and Melmetal (99% of teams will have at least one of these).

4) The Ghost typing is also a neat perk, as with Taunt, it can overcome Chansey. With M-Alakazam, Chansey can still win out with Seismic Toss.

5) Superior STAB moves as Ghost + Poison > mono Psychic.

Just looking at all the available Pokemon, there really isn't a true, reliable counter to M-Gengar. This fact alone warrants a rank higher than B, at the least. Also, the type differences between the two of them (Gengar and Alakazam) only distinguishes them further.

I do agree that overall they share similar roles in being fast, powerful cleaners, but I just wanted to make the point that M-Alakazam doesn't straight up outclass M-Gengar. M-Alakazam's advantages over M-Gengar are Calm Mind and a faster Speed, but I don't think is enough to outright state it's simply superior to M-Gengar. In my opinion, they should both be ranked together in S.

As for Eevee, Ryolain already covered my response, but I'd like to reinforce that being the only cleric in the tier doesn't automatically warrant an S rank (which it previously was, which I found absolutely ridiculous btw), nor an A rank. Personally, an upper B rank is fair for me. I say this because, again, it really isn't an effective cleric, and very often has to sacrifice itself just to do so.

TL;DR - M-Gengar has enough distinctions from M-Alakazam to be ranked independently of it (as in, the existence of M-Alakazam shouldn't deduce the viability of M-Gengar).

I think what we have is a B mon with S/A matchups. He isn't winning scraps V Mega Zam or Aero or even 'dos without its theoretically terrorising Hypnosis. That's 3 scraps you're better off without him as Mega...

but what's neat is he can bluff. The best 'gar vs my 200-8 Mewtwo mega x team really like that 50-50... and I like to bust out Y just for the speed tie... with Muk or Melmetal I may be trapped though. So yeah with one Protect he can really throw things off wow I might have to bite that disable set if I ever drop this 'Two

Anyways his odds are there as a B Mega but 50 50s aren't ideal when you can setup check mate with SR (Aero) and 1 S Mega.

Maybe he's too spooky for them but old Japanese Stadium/ADV match vids never have 'Gar in them I noticed... really is a gambling 'mon.

 

[Vengeance417]

Does Taunt have any notable targets in this meta? For most offensive mons in standard it’s to prevent recovery or Defog but those don’t really exist here unless you’re trying to block Rest. As far as blocking status, Gengar is immune to Toxic, doesn’t particularly care about WoW aside from the chip damage and probably doesn’t want to stay in anyway against the primary user of Twave, Melmetal. It doesn’t outspeed MZam to prevent CM, the main user of setup. The only thing I can think of offhand is MVenu to block Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. If blocking moves is you goal with MGar, Disable seems like the far superior option.

It's good for dicking on Chansey, which could use T-wave on you or attempt to Softboiled. You prevent both with Taunt, whereas you can only Disable one of those moves.

 

[Ryolain]

It's good for dicking on Chansey, which could use T-wave on you or attempt to Softboiled. You prevent both with Taunt, whereas you can only Disable one of those moves.

Valid, although Chansey is at 4% usage so it doesn’t seem worth running an entire moveslot just for it. If I were gonna shape my moveset around one mon I’d be more concerned about A-Muk since it’s at 54% usage.

 

[Dilwar]

I think what we have is a B mon with S/A matchups. He isn't winning scraps V Mega Zam or Aero or even 'dos without its theoretically terrorising Hypnosis. That's 3 scraps you're better off without him as Mega...

but what's neat is he can bluff. The best 'gar vs my 200-8 Mewtwo mega x team really like that 50-50... and I like to bust out Y just for the speed tie... with Muk or Melmetal I may be trapped though. So yeah with one Protect he can really throw things off wow I might have to bite that disable set if I ever drop this 'Two

Anyways his odds are there as a B Mega but 50 50s aren't ideal when you can setup check mate with SR (Aero) and 1 S Mega.

Maybe he's too spooky for them but old Japanese Stadium/ADV match vids never have 'Gar in them I noticed... really is a gambling 'mon.

Lmao so if a Pokemon beats another in 1v1, it's better? I guess Avalugg is better than M-Rayquaza then.

Also this is Let's Go OU so I don't know why you're bringing up a Mewtwo team.

"Anyways his odds are there as a B Mega but 50 50s aren't ideal when you can setup check mate with SR (Aero) and 1 S Mega."

What???

 

[Duckster]

Lmao so if a Pokemon beats another in 1v1, it's better? I guess Avalugg is better than M-Rayquaza then.

Also this is Let's Go OU so I don't know why you're bringing up a Mewtwo team.

"Anyways his odds are there as a B Mega but 50 50s aren't ideal when you can setup check mate with SR (Aero) and 1 S Mega."

What???

Eh I like what you said earlier brother I think he just ain't gonna make it on a consistent basis with those 3 Megas blocking him out the gates... good shit on you if it feels S.

I've seen many playstyles with Mewtwo btw I'm just trying to help based on what I know since there's no Cartridge Random board man.

 

[Vengeance417]

Eh I like what you said earlier brother I think he just ain't gonna make it on a consistent basis with those 3 Megas blocking him out the gates... good shit on you if it feels S.

I've seen many playstyles with Mewtwo btw I'm just trying to help based on what I know since there's no Cartridge Random board man.

People in this thread mostly play on the Pokemon Showdown ladder for Let's Go OU, where Mewtwo is banned making it almost an entirely different metagame to Wifi, so there's really no point in bringing up Mewtwo because it simply isn't a factor to consider for Smogon's version of the format. If you want to talk about a Mewtwo meta, which is basically "Anything Goes" with Candy boosts included, there's a chat room for it on the discord server for this meta: https://discord.gg/btMyCYy