of course status moves do work. At least my Ferrothorn with rocks + boom never had any problems with that link.
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Metagame Linked
- Thread starter Ivy
- Start date
I played a little on the ladder and find two playstyles are dominating the metagame: kokolucha rain and trick room.
rain sweepers like Swampert, Kingdra, Kabutops and Omastar now gains one free setup move
Swampert uses power-up punch+waterfall, Kingdra uses focus energy+draco meteor, Kabutops uses SD+waterfall, Omastar uses shell smash+surf. Of course nothing in OU tier can suffer such kinds of damage.
Tapu koko can set up both physical and special walls in one turn, making these sweepers harder to kill.
Hawlucha gains a free swords dance before acrobatics. It's stupid but really effective.
With TR pokemons like Magearna, Uxie and Cresselia gains free swiching moves. TR abusers like Mawile and marowak now can have 4 turns in trick room to attack instead of 3, making trick room quite broken.
rain sweepers like Swampert, Kingdra, Kabutops and Omastar now gains one free setup move
Swampert uses power-up punch+waterfall, Kingdra uses focus energy+draco meteor, Kabutops uses SD+waterfall, Omastar uses shell smash+surf. Of course nothing in OU tier can suffer such kinds of damage.
Tapu koko can set up both physical and special walls in one turn, making these sweepers harder to kill.
Hawlucha gains a free swords dance before acrobatics. It's stupid but really effective.
With TR pokemons like Magearna, Uxie and Cresselia gains free swiching moves. TR abusers like Mawile and marowak now can have 4 turns in trick room to attack instead of 3, making trick room quite broken.
Trick room is dumb
Jirachi is dumb
Rain is dumb
Ban pls
Jirachi is dumb
Rain is dumb
Ban pls
Man, I've been using this set for fun. I don't know if it's viable but it sure is fun!
Jellicent @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Recover
- Water Spout
- Trick Room
- Toxic
first use trick room, and then recover + water spout for some serious damage!
Jellicent @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Recover
- Water Spout
- Trick Room
- Toxic
first use trick room, and then recover + water spout for some serious damage!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728101563
There's a bug with encore you may want to check out.
And to make this not a 2-liner I'm going to post a set that beats setup + attackers.
Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psych Up
- Stored Power
- Filler
- Filler
Your pokemon faints, you send this in, it survives with a focus sash, copies the opponent's stat changes, and kills the opponent with Stored Power.
There's a bug with encore you may want to check out.
And to make this not a 2-liner I'm going to post a set that beats setup + attackers.
Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psych Up
- Stored Power
- Filler
- Filler
Your pokemon faints, you send this in, it survives with a focus sash, copies the opponent's stat changes, and kills the opponent with Stored Power.
I've been messing around w/ some sets and I found this little gem
Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Misty Terrain
- Nature Power
- Giga Drain
- Filler
The single best revenge killer for everyone's favorite luchador, if a bit weak. Though it does a pretty good job of checking most of rain as well and good for hitting mons in trick room as well. The only downside is that greninja and the occasional weavile aren't effected by nature power as they are dark types.
Also this cancer:
Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Quick Attack
- High Jump Kick
- Return
Nothing in the meta outside of e-speed and other fake out users out speed this set's priority. base 80 guaranteed flinching is actually phenomenal and if it does over 66% you can say goodbye to your mon.
Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Misty Terrain
- Nature Power
- Giga Drain
- Filler
The single best revenge killer for everyone's favorite luchador, if a bit weak. Though it does a pretty good job of checking most of rain as well and good for hitting mons in trick room as well. The only downside is that greninja and the occasional weavile aren't effected by nature power as they are dark types.
Also this cancer:
Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Quick Attack
- High Jump Kick
- Return
Nothing in the meta outside of e-speed and other fake out users out speed this set's priority. base 80 guaranteed flinching is actually phenomenal and if it does over 66% you can say goodbye to your mon.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Encore needs to be quick banned it breaks the battle
Also Rain is everywhere but beatable - trick room counters it nicely if one mon can just live a hit. For hawlucha I used a meme sceptile with unburden but it was pretty trash. that whimsicott set looks better but also gimmicky. Priority of any form is the best counter.
Finally, I haven't used it yet, but is FEAR finally viable? endeavor and attack in the same turn?
Also Rain is everywhere but beatable - trick room counters it nicely if one mon can just live a hit. For hawlucha I used a meme sceptile with unburden but it was pretty trash. that whimsicott set looks better but also gimmicky. Priority of any form is the best counter.
Finally, I haven't used it yet, but is FEAR finally viable? endeavor and attack in the same turn?
You lose priority on Quick Attack and similar moves. So FEAR is not really viable.
Ok, how about instead of using a mon to check hawlucha and only hawlucha you guys try running something that beats pretty much every setup sweeper not named Cloyster or Mega Gyarados and then some?
Mimikyu @ Red Card
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough / Shadow claw
- Shadow Claw / Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
OR
Mimikyu @ Red Card / Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
Red Card has the extremely anti-meta property of interrupting links, meaning a mon that linked two attacks only gets to use one of them before being phased out, and unless that one attack is a +2 Icicle Spear then something's getting dragged into a +2 Play Rough.
Mimikyu @ Red Card
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough / Shadow claw
- Shadow Claw / Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
OR
Mimikyu @ Red Card / Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
Red Card has the extremely anti-meta property of interrupting links, meaning a mon that linked two attacks only gets to use one of them before being phased out, and unless that one attack is a +2 Icicle Spear then something's getting dragged into a +2 Play Rough.
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Okay, so it's my opinion that hawlucha should really be banned from linked. A lot of these weather teams (*cough* rain *cough*) are posing a problem too, so another option would be to ban speed boosting abilities like unburden and swift swim. I also think it's worth suspecting shell smash.
Good news! Encore has been largely fixed, and other tune-ups are in the works.
So there's definitely one particular lad that stole the spotlight early these past two days, and that's Hawlucha. Thanks to the new seeds mechanic, Unburden users can get an instantaneous boost in Speed, winning just about any Speed war in a hyper offensive matchup. This has settled as the most popular and efficient way to double Speed, as it persists for as long as the mon lasts in battle. This is especially nice for snowballing sets like SD Acrobatics Hawlucha.
Some replays: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728200171 (roomtour finals)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728217585 (thanks again volc lol)
Unburden aside, the issue lies clear in Speed. Other effects like weather and terrain (Swift Swim / Surge Surfer) instead sacrifice this permanence in favor of reusability. While weather has immediately fallen in usage due to being outperformed by Unburden, early test tournaments on Dragon Heaven showed it to be just as deadly. Surge Surfer is the runt of the litter, but Alolan Raichu could very well fill the same role with a Nasty Plot set, or provide obscenely fast FakeTurns.
There were a handful of ways to fight this. Strong priority in the form of Mega Pinsir or Talonflame seems good on paper, but in practice, Pinsir doesn't have the firepower to OHKO even a Hawlucha if it has the Defense boost from a seed. Talonflame suffers in a different way, as its priority is extremely difficult to maintain without sacrificing a move in the link for Roost - and pray it doesn't come in on Stealth Rock! Finally, friendly Speed boosting is an option. Speed Boost Sharpedo, however, needs three boosts to outspeed most Unburden users, which requires two or more Protects in a row. And of course, one could simply run their own Unburden setup. Indeed, none of these options were all too favorable.
This all being said, with helpful feedback from the thread and the OM room, I'm going to go ahead and quickban instant Speed-boosting abilities. This isn't as extreme as with Shared Power; Speed Boost, Steadfast, Rattled etc. will remain valid. This ban consists entirely of Unburden, Surge Surfer, and the weather-boosted Speed abilities. These abilities' capability to boost Speed without spending any turns are what has been a most immediate problem.
This isn't a magical cure-all sadly. There will be new nastiness rising from the ashes, like the Swagger + Thunder Wave, Fake + Out U-turn dangerous duo described by KuraiTenshi26. Dual screens Koko, Paralysis-inducing Prankster users, and sweepers will continue to rise. Very versatile setup moves like Shell Smash will be particularly valuable as a way to boost both Speed and an attacking stat while using an damaging move. Trick Room remains a venerable threat. "Double Dance", not seen too often, will likely also find a niche among those without Shell Smash or Shift Gear. However, overall, this first decision to remove speed-boosting abilities ought to be a good step in the right direction!
So there's definitely one particular lad that stole the spotlight early these past two days, and that's Hawlucha. Thanks to the new seeds mechanic, Unburden users can get an instantaneous boost in Speed, winning just about any Speed war in a hyper offensive matchup. This has settled as the most popular and efficient way to double Speed, as it persists for as long as the mon lasts in battle. This is especially nice for snowballing sets like SD Acrobatics Hawlucha.
Some replays: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728200171 (roomtour finals)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728217585 (thanks again volc lol)
Unburden aside, the issue lies clear in Speed. Other effects like weather and terrain (Swift Swim / Surge Surfer) instead sacrifice this permanence in favor of reusability. While weather has immediately fallen in usage due to being outperformed by Unburden, early test tournaments on Dragon Heaven showed it to be just as deadly. Surge Surfer is the runt of the litter, but Alolan Raichu could very well fill the same role with a Nasty Plot set, or provide obscenely fast FakeTurns.
There were a handful of ways to fight this. Strong priority in the form of Mega Pinsir or Talonflame seems good on paper, but in practice, Pinsir doesn't have the firepower to OHKO even a Hawlucha if it has the Defense boost from a seed. Talonflame suffers in a different way, as its priority is extremely difficult to maintain without sacrificing a move in the link for Roost - and pray it doesn't come in on Stealth Rock! Finally, friendly Speed boosting is an option. Speed Boost Sharpedo, however, needs three boosts to outspeed most Unburden users, which requires two or more Protects in a row. And of course, one could simply run their own Unburden setup. Indeed, none of these options were all too favorable.
This all being said, with helpful feedback from the thread and the OM room, I'm going to go ahead and quickban instant Speed-boosting abilities. This isn't as extreme as with Shared Power; Speed Boost, Steadfast, Rattled etc. will remain valid. This ban consists entirely of Unburden, Surge Surfer, and the weather-boosted Speed abilities. These abilities' capability to boost Speed without spending any turns are what has been a most immediate problem.
This isn't a magical cure-all sadly. There will be new nastiness rising from the ashes, like the Swagger + Thunder Wave, Fake + Out U-turn dangerous duo described by KuraiTenshi26. Dual screens Koko, Paralysis-inducing Prankster users, and sweepers will continue to rise. Very versatile setup moves like Shell Smash will be particularly valuable as a way to boost both Speed and an attacking stat while using an damaging move. Trick Room remains a venerable threat. "Double Dance", not seen too often, will likely also find a niche among those without Shell Smash or Shift Gear. However, overall, this first decision to remove speed-boosting abilities ought to be a good step in the right direction!
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is hawlucha broken or something?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728208934
i dont know if it was pure luck the flinches but i feel something is wrong with that
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728208934
i dont know if it was pure luck the flinches but i feel something is wrong with that
A ban based off of 2 replays seems a bit rushed to me its the first 2 days of the meta at least allow it to settle. That rain team i flexed with in dragon heaven and my unburden spam team share a glaring weakness: they are awful versus a competently built tr team. Tr also happens to be one of the most prominent playstyles making them woefully inconsistent. Banning unburden just feels extremely rushed.
I'm a person that usually will say U-Turn is a broken (or at the very least unfair) move in regular play
-Will nearly be a guarantee to be used outside of fainting
-Makes predictions obsolete
-Only counter-play is spot on predictions in scenarios where you have SE moves on the predicted switch (Baton Pass/Parting Shot being tauntable and Volt-Switch at least being unable to hit ground types)
-No major sacrifices like Memento
-Allows people to be completely mindless
-Does damage on top of everything else and not being too shabby either
And now these problems are 10 times worse.
-Whirlwind/Roar/DT/CT+U-Turn giving you automatic momentum
-Fake Out+U-Turn chains (Fake Out also being really broken in this meta, but is fine regularly)
-Support move+U-Turn, making almost everything a weather user that has that combo, giving easy Tailwinds/Trick Rooms
-Negates negative affects of non-recoil moves
-Momentum punishing even harder with 2 moves being used
Since Protect is unlinkable due to it making battles uncompetitive by giving free moves if you were faster/higher priority, I'd say U-turn would just give free switches in most scenarios (which is regularly does) and with so little with what you can do.
-Will nearly be a guarantee to be used outside of fainting
-Makes predictions obsolete
-Only counter-play is spot on predictions in scenarios where you have SE moves on the predicted switch (Baton Pass/Parting Shot being tauntable and Volt-Switch at least being unable to hit ground types)
-No major sacrifices like Memento
-Allows people to be completely mindless
-Does damage on top of everything else and not being too shabby either
And now these problems are 10 times worse.
-Whirlwind/Roar/DT/CT+U-Turn giving you automatic momentum
-Fake Out+U-Turn chains (Fake Out also being really broken in this meta, but is fine regularly)
-Support move+U-Turn, making almost everything a weather user that has that combo, giving easy Tailwinds/Trick Rooms
-Negates negative affects of non-recoil moves
-Momentum punishing even harder with 2 moves being used
Since Protect is unlinkable due to it making battles uncompetitive by giving free moves if you were faster/higher priority, I'd say U-turn would just give free switches in most scenarios (which is regularly does) and with so little with what you can do.
So if you're running a TR team and you need a mega, I suggest that use this one. Weird compared to normal sets, but it definitely works.
Merciless (Slowbro-Mega) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Aqua Tail
Set up TR, and the rest is pretty straightforward.
Merciless (Slowbro-Mega) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Aqua Tail
Set up TR, and the rest is pretty straightforward.
While I was playing Linked with a prankster Thundurus, I tried to use thunderbolt, which was not linked to anything (status moves included), on a mega Gyarados, but showdown said "In gen 7, Dark is immune to Prankster moves." and it did not deal damage. From what I can tell, this is a glitch. Here's the replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7linked-728281458 Can someone explain and/or fix this?
Something I've noticed is that priority moves that are linked to non-priority moves (so they don't have increased priority) do not work in Psychic Terrain. Specifically, I tried using Fake Out + U-turn in Psychic Terrain and Fake Out failed. Is that an intentional mechanic? I think it should be adequately explained in this thread's OP.
I also experienced something similar, in this case I had Volt Switch and Trick Room linked on my Magearna, but when I clicked Fleur Cannon under TR against an opposing Manaphy, it outsped and killed Magearna, altough Manaphy is slower than Magearna in TR. So maybe for some reason the negative priority from TR was linked to Fleur Cannon, altough the first two moves were TR and Volt Switch?
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
It may be better to give it Trick Room and Belly Drum as the link, so you can have an extra turn of Trick Room, and not obligate a teammate to be Trick Rooming for it (plus avoid taking damage on the switch in).
Trick Room also means that Belly Drum will go after the foe and won’t outspeed slower Pokémon like Shuckle, therefore you won’t be in KO range (if you take a hit to below 50% and use Belly Drum then it’ll just fail, rather than lose 50% to Belly Drum and then lose your foe’s Attack).
This thing makes hawlucha look useless! Because of its unaware, it doesnt really matter if lucha is +6, it just keeps hitting close to nothing with this set.
Drum sets? Shell smash sets? nah, not for this fella
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stockpile
- Recover
- Earthquake / Toxic
- Scald
The psuedo Z-stockpile Quagsire! Just stockpile and recover until ur nice and cozy and then just spread status among all of the opponent's pokemon. Beware for grass knot and solarbeam though!
Ingame, instructing a Slaking that has just used a move will burn a Truant turn. So in Linked, Truant should also be move-based rather than turn-based. Same thing with Sleeep turns I guess?
LatiasDigs
formerly digitalson
I can understand swift swim, surge surfer, and unburden, but i see no reason to ban slush rush this early on
Recharge moves should take up the linked move and allow u to spam it again next turn. However, atm u still need to recharge even though u didnt use the linked move. Bug? Or did i read it wrong?
THE SUN (Volcarona) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flame Body
Shiny: Yes
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain
Tired of those near-pervasive Shuckle leads? Use this and counter them by creating a monstrous sweeper! Shuckle's lack of an ability to do anything to this setup lends nicely to this getting the chance to set up at least two QDs and maybe proc a few Fiery Dance boosts in the meantime. By the time Shuckle faints, you wont be worried about the rocks and webs-because +2(or 3 or 4)/+2/+2 will slaughter things with relative ease. It does struggle against Mimikyu due to Disguise, but with enough boosts from Shuckle time, even Greninja struggles to pose much of a threat. Have fun!
Ability: Flame Body
Shiny: Yes
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain
Tired of those near-pervasive Shuckle leads? Use this and counter them by creating a monstrous sweeper! Shuckle's lack of an ability to do anything to this setup lends nicely to this getting the chance to set up at least two QDs and maybe proc a few Fiery Dance boosts in the meantime. By the time Shuckle faints, you wont be worried about the rocks and webs-because +2(or 3 or 4)/+2/+2 will slaughter things with relative ease. It does struggle against Mimikyu due to Disguise, but with enough boosts from Shuckle time, even Greninja struggles to pose much of a threat. Have fun!
I just want to point out something that is really, inherently stupid to fight.
Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Heart Stamp
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
Thunder Wave Jirachi plus two linked moves with a 60% chance to flinch each insures that you're never beating this thing unless you outspeed it. Please consider handling this thing :(
Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Heart Stamp
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
Thunder Wave Jirachi plus two linked moves with a 60% chance to flinch each insures that you're never beating this thing unless you outspeed it. Please consider handling this thing :(