1. At least it's not like having Whirlwind, a move with no effect whatsoever in battles, being a TM. At least Splash does an animation.
One word: raids. They needed a reason for players to do raids after you got each Pokémon in a den.
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
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Also, the choice of having most TMs being mediocre moves is because that way they can be distributed during the story without breaking the game (cough cough Scald / Thunderbolt early TMs in previous games)
The removal of pursuit and hidden power in swsh hopefully they would be added back in the next main series game or DLC
HP is probably never coming back. It was the source of atrocious Soft resetting and hacking for cartridge formats, hence why they removed it in the first place.
The simple fact Pokemon Home marks those moves (as well as several others) as unobtainable is enough of a marker that they are not coming back. Ever.
Plus, SwSh itself specifically replaced their text with "this move does nothing, please delete it".
Thing is that early TMs in previous games weren't just put there on accident (& note that while they did replace scald in USUM they sure as hell didn't replace Brick Break). and with so many TMs they are more than capable of just throwing them into the late (or post game!) like they've done with other moves. Like Earthquake is typically always late/post game.
They do in this very game, even. Battle Tower is holding the relatively good & acceptable replacement moves Mystical Fire, Giga Drain & Razor Shell hostage. All of the Punches are stuck in Wyndon.
i'd honestly rather they didn't even both putting replacements and just had nothing. Just cut down the TM list by half at this point, we would lose nothing. Wow thanks for having screen AND fake tears, this...is great...thanks....
Or just gave out TRs instead. I feel like the only reason Focus Energy is the only TR given out in the game is because they realzied evolving Farfetch
So, hey, turns out that Razor Shell, as a TM, sucks.
I wrote this on teh assumption that oh, this is the "easy" replacement for Waterfall. Weaker, but still strong, physical water move where they'd shift from "shell" to "slash" in interpretation
Turns out that no. There are a whopping TWO pokemon that learn it, Mew & Escavalier, who did not already learn it. Everyone else not only learns it naturally, they learn it around the early to mid 30s so I cannot fathom why this is a TM at all.
If we look at the Home TM/TR list even that doesn't help. Kabutops, Slowbro, Slowking and I think one other; and this all assumes they also don't just learn it naturally in their new learnset!
I am pretty sure no other TM in this game is like this.
why
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WHILE IM HERE
I was rattling around the idea of an all pika-clone run of XY or SM and looking at movesets, bringing forth the reveal that Dedenne still does not get Dazzling Gleam, even two generations later.
OK so, did you know? Fairy types almost always get the moves they want. Special attackers get Moonblast, Dazzling Gleam or both (& often others!); Physical attackers almost always get Play Rough. Tapu Bulu & Tapu Koko are the one exception to the latter; they didn't get Play Rough in Gen 7 but the TM/TR list shows they get it by TR now.
However, they also get Dazzling Gleam.
In fact most fairy type pokemon will get 2 out of three of these, thanks to TRs especially, even if they have no business having them. Many even get all 3! This applies to every single Fairy type Pokemon
Except for Dedenne.
Dedenne is a special attacking pokemon (81 special attack vs 58 attack) and the only damaging Fairy move is Play Rough. In fact the only other fairy move it learns is Charm. Even in the TM/TR list it doesn't seem to get any special attacking fairy move.
It's not like you can even blame this on dedenne being a pikaclone and them being bad. Emolga's not fantastic but can get Acrobatics, Aerial Ace, Air Slash and an assortment of Flying status moves like Defog, Roost & Tailwind. Togedemaru had to wait a pair of games but USUM gave it Iron Head & Tail. Morpeko in addition to its 120 BP physical move that switches between electric & dark every turn gets, like, every dark move it could ever want except Night Slash.
Which TMs? I took a quick glance through the list and while the TM lists aren't abundant they hit a lot of different lines. But there's 100 of these things so I probably missed some, I just remember looking at the Swaps and Eerie Impulse and going "oh that's far more than I thought"
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
I don't really get why in her BW1/2 rematches and in 2's Challenge Mode Caitlin's ace becomes Metagross. She's the only BW E4 member to change their main mon like that, and more importantly it just kinda doesn't make a lot of sense for her? Like if it was Gallade as a nod to Darach that woulda been kinda neat, but what does Metagross have to do with anything, and again, why is she the only BW E4 to change mains?
I feel it's just a nod to her being from a previous generation; hence she's the only one that switches to a non-Unova Pokémon. Slightly odd at first glance that it's Metagross, sure, but we never actually got to see which Pokémon she herself uses so I like that this seems to give a bit of insight into her.
Here's the thing, though, all of the moves are still fulled coded for effects(power, accuraccy, catagory, even the nitty gritty effects, like Hidden Power type is still kept track of, Returns power from Friendship, ect). All of the cut damaging moves even have coded-in Max move versions(Unlike Z-moves Hidden Power becomes a Max move of its type apparently). There are currently only two things stopping them from being usable
1) A simple flag preventing them from being used
2) They have no animations
The only difference between cut moves that kept their desciptions and ones that didn't is that the ones that didn't aren't available on Pokemon through home, with the exception of Powder(Which the Cutiefly line can get via breeding in USUM) probably due to an oversight.
In other words, removing that flag and making animations is all that is needed to make them usable again, no further programming needed. Something that could easily happen in the expansion passes. So it's not impossible for them to come back.
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Right, but the data for stuff like Soot Sack and Red Chain is still in the game. They always leave in data like this and restrict access to it, presumably because it's just easier than removing it without effecting anything else. The way Hidden Power, Dragon Rage etc have been cut and the way they tell you to outright delete them even in Home suggests something a lot more deliberate and permanent, and unless they got lots of fan requests it'd be difficult to see why they'd be added back.
But unlike those moves, soot sack and red chain are simply non-functional, their functions are not still coded into the game at all. When the Apricorn Balls were gone in Gen V and VI hacking them into your inventory did squat because they were no longer coded as Pokeballs.
As I stated the moves are still pretty much fully programed in, if someone could figure out how to remove the flag, and then turn off battle animations in the settings, they would still fully work without crashing the game. Return woulds still have 102 Power with max happiness, Hidden Power would still be Dark Type for a perfect Pokemon, Pursuit would still hit Pokemon switching out, ect.
This is quite a bit different from items cut, which were wiped clean of anything resembling function in later gens. They still work, the game just arbitarily won't let you select them is all.
That to me seems a consequence of the moves still actually being accessible unlike those items due to the way GF decided to handle them. I'd hardly put any stock in it.
I feel like those were kept so they were technically still valid moves in a pokémon moveslot, so they could set up a flag for them and let people delete them., as a way to teach them these moves are being discountinued. Would it be easier to just warn that the move was going to be deleted when you transfer into swsh and do that when it hits your box? probably, but they didn't really want to code that so they just took already made data and locked the moves.
A lot of moves deleted were just clutter or considered hard to build around. Move creation also slowed down, so it feels like gamefreak wants to tone down the amount of moves that exist. I won't be surprised if more moves are deleted on dp remakes and gen 9
THIS. This has irritated me to no end ever since Gen 6, and it continues to irritate me that it continues to happen for some unfathomable reason. This is the primary reason why I believe Dedenne’s Fairy type was slapped on at the last minute to A) Give it a token difference to the other Pikaclones and B) Eke our one more Fairy type because new mechanic. This is also the reason why I consider Dedenne to be the worst Pikaclone of the lot, and until this problem is rectified I’m sticking to it.
Here's a big list: (Discounting Mew and the Galar mons)
- Pin Missile: The only new things to learn it are Cloyster and Vespiqueen. Every other non-galar mon already learned the move.
- Magical Leaf: Only new additions are Sylveon and Ribombee.
- Scary Face: Almost all of the new additions would't have been able to get it through breding previously. (Some of them were genderless, an evolved form, or male-only)
- Charm: Lapras, Jirachi, and the Cutiefly family are the only new additions.
- Whirlpool: For Gen 5-7, only Barbacle and Popplio are new. (Contrast to gens 1-4 where every water had it thanks to HGSS)
- Icicle Spear: I guess a bunch of full evos get it. (Plus Bergemite and more majorly Kyruem)
I am forgiving on most of these. Galar mons are still valid new users, same with genderless pokemon. I guess it's a little bummed that not a lot of old mons got , say Magical leaf, (you forgot Trevenant) but that's still 8 new lines to get the move, even if 5 of those are from the latest games. and none of the Galar mons are ones that get it by level up.
And hell Icicle Spear went from 6 lines to 20-ish. And again, almost none of the new users got it naturally!
obviously the ideal is they got all kinds of pokemon new & old but I'll take move lists like this provided they help expand something by even a small noticable degree compared to some Gen 1 TM Nonsense that is Razor Shell
The real issue, I think we can both agree, is making Pin Missile, Scary Face & Charm into TMs in the first place.
Razor Shell is by far the worst offender. Whether or not a Pokemon can learn the move through breeding or previous generation isn't important, as it's way more convenient to just give it a TM. But if a Pokemon can already learn the move via level up, as R_N was talking about initially, it's much more egregious. Here's the data on the moves you listed and Razor Shell.
To determine how many Pokemon could learn a given move by TM/TR, I went to the following sources, searched for the move with ctrl+F, and recorded the number of results, dividing by two when appropriate. I realize this may skew some results, as something like Charm would provide a hit for every Pikachu variation.
https://pastebin.com/YttGzmje
https://pastebin.com/CZYW0jAX
https://pastebin.com/kjtgxzw5
https://pastebin.com/XWhWfdaj
https://serebii.net/swordshield/hometm.shtml
To determine how many Pokemon learned a move through level up, I went to the move's Bulbapedia page and hand-counted the number of Pokemon in the "learn by leveling up" section, skipping over forms that are effectively share a movepool (such as Shaymin's land and sky forms).
https://pastebin.com/YttGzmje
https://pastebin.com/CZYW0jAX
https://pastebin.com/kjtgxzw5
https://pastebin.com/XWhWfdaj
https://serebii.net/swordshield/hometm.shtml
To determine how many Pokemon learned a move through level up, I went to the move's Bulbapedia page and hand-counted the number of Pokemon in the "learn by leveling up" section, skipping over forms that are effectively share a movepool (such as Shaymin's land and sky forms).
70 learn this TM, while 25 learn it through level up. A ratio of 2.8 : 1.
131 learn this through TM, while 28 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~4.68 : 1.
276 learn this through TM, while 98 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~2.82 : 1.
273 learn this through TM, while 72 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~3.79 : 1.
268 learn this through TM, while 23 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~11.65 : 1.
55 learn this through TM, while 6 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~9.17 : 1.
24 learn this through TM, while 13 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~1.85 : 1.
Not only does Razor Shell have an incredible small TM learn base, but the number of those Pokemon that don't already learn it through level up is proportionally very low.
To put razor shell into even more perspective there's so few learners of it I could do a double count through the pastebins and and correct this to 19 total users, 13 of which learn it through level up (with the possibility of Carracosta, Kabutops, Slowbro &/or Slowking learning it naturally)Razor Shell is by far the worst offender. Whether or not a Pokemon can learn the move through breeding or previous generation isn't important, as it's way more convenient to just give it a TM. But if a Pokemon can already learn the move via level up, as R_N was talking about initially, it's much more egregious. Here's the data on the moves you listed and Razor Shell.
To determine how many Pokemon could learn a given move by TM/TR, I went to the following sources, searched for the move with ctrl+F, and recorded the number of results, dividing by two when appropriate. I realize this may skew some results, as something like Charm would provide a hit for every Pikachu variation.
https://pastebin.com/YttGzmje
https://pastebin.com/CZYW0jAX
https://pastebin.com/kjtgxzw5
https://pastebin.com/XWhWfdaj
https://serebii.net/swordshield/hometm.shtml
To determine how many Pokemon learned a move through level up, I went to the move's Bulbapedia page and hand-counted the number of Pokemon in the "learn by leveling up" section, skipping over forms that are effectively share a movepool (such as Shaymin's land and sky forms).
Pin Missile:
70 learn this TM, while 25 learn it through level up. A ratio of 2.8 : 1.
Magical Leaf:
131 learn this through TM, while 28 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~4.68 : 1.
Scary Face:
276 learn this through TM, while 98 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~2.82 : 1.
Charm:
273 learn this through TM, while 72 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~3.79 : 1.
Whirlpool:
268 learn this through TM, while 23 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~11.65 : 1.
Icicle Spear:
55 learn this through TM, while 6 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~9.17 : 1.
Razor Shell:
24 learn this through TM, while 13 learn it through level up. A ratio of ~1.85 : 1.
Not only does Razor Shell have an incredible small TM learn base, but the number of those Pokemon that don't already learn it through level up is proportionally very low.
Guide Dang It.
1. It was Gen I.
2. Don't forget the HMs. In Gen IV there was 8 HMs and in Gen V was 6 HMs (and remember Snarl was meant to be a secret TM that was never released).
3. Let's Go removed a lot of moves so GF took the opportunity to also redo the TM list so it was more useful.
4. From what I can tell a lot of powerful moves were made into TRs. By making those moves one-use they could now have those moves given out early where as if they were TMs, so players wouldn't be too OP early on, would have to make the good TMs only obtainable later on (and maybe even post game).
Also giving (Special oriented) Pokemon essentially a move that can be any Type (aside Normal and Fairy) seemed to go against having to work within the Pokemon's Type coverage limitations.
When BW made TMs reusable, it is just so convenient for the player. If they don't like players spamming powerful TMs early, just put them late game like Ice Beam or Earthquake. Having to farm Max Raids for TR is just a waste of time because the AI trainers are crappy.
Granted, the way TRs were implemented in Sword & Shield does feel shallow; they pretty much downgraded TMs not for balance reasons but because they wanted a more worthwhile rewards for the Raids (though they do at least give you an option to buy some TRs with Watts).
However, at least in future gens, I do see potential in using TRs to give players a special reward, especially when it's early in the game. I can see it done so in 3 ways:
- Exploration Bonus: You're exploring either a route, forest, cave, building/ruins, etc. and you see a branching pathway. Either from random guess or you just wanting to explore as much as you could, you go down the non-required pathway and one of the additional items you find is a TR of a powerful move you won't have access to for a while. They could also make it hidden items for those empty indents, oddly placed rocks, empty patch of grass, trash cans, etc..
- Gym Leader Daily: Now when you defeat the Gym Leader they'll give you a TM as normal, but for the early Gym Leaders sometimes their TMs aren't the best and you may outgrow them quickly. And then for the rest of the game the Gym Leader might as well not exist unless the story decides to bring them back for a story segment. But now with TRs, what if after their Gym Battle there's a place that you can visit them daily and they'll give you a TR of their Type.
- Random Trainer/NPC Bonus: Finally, what if every so often after you beat a random trainer they'll offer you a TR. Or after the battle you can talk with them again and they'll offer to give you a TR. Heck, maybe even let a few of the hundreds of random NPCs also give out a TR. Maybe even make it so some can give another every so often.