(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[R_N]

I am putting this in the same realm of Flamethrower and its ilk. Do you advocate for that one dropping too so we can get the more interesting fire moves used more?

Cuz Mega Kick, Crush Claw or Double Edge (Which you...listed as more interesting before but then put it in the flow chart as one of 3 moves normal types use...?) are kind of in the same realm as Flamethrower vs Fire Blast/Lava Plume/Incinerate (& I would have listed Flame Burst but they got rid of that one....) to me. Im guessing most people will just default to Body Slam now so I feel we didnt really have a shift in the normal type move metagame

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I am putting this in the same realm of Flamethrower and its ilk. Do you advocate for that one dropping too so we can get the more interesting fire moves used more?

Cuz Mega Kick, Crush Claw or Double Edge (Which you...listed as more interesting before but then put it in the flow chart as one of 3 moves normal types use...?) are kind of in the same realm as Flamethrower vs Fire Blast/Lava Plume/Incinerate (& I would have listed Flame Burst but they got rid of that one....) to me.

Double-Edge was there because people occasionally use it, but not often. As for Flamethrower, it isn't really an apt comparison because 1) it has a fewer number of interesting alternatives (Fire Blast, Overheat, Lava Plume, Heat Wave in doubles, Eruption, Lava Plume and Eruption aren't common) and 2) those alternatives already get used often. I don't have an inherent problem with a good but boring move. It lets players chose whether they want to play it safe or use something spicier. The problem is when that boring move towers above its alternatives like a dull monolith.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The problem is when that boring move towers above its alternatives like a dull monolith.

Right, because there isn't an actual choice between raw power (Return/Frustration) and utility (Body Slam/Crush Claw).

The only thing the removal of Return accomplished for Normal-types was the removal of the option of consistent, drawback-free damage over utility.

Also, it just screwed over all those Normal/Flying birds that already didn't have much in terms of options, especially since most don't have access to Body Slam.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Right, because there isn't an actual choice between raw power (Return/Frustration) and utility (Body Slam/Crush Claw).

I know you were trying to be sarcastic, but you're right. Nothing used Crush Claw, and pretty much the only time Body Slam was used was when something wasn't interested in being offensive, and either lacked Thunder Wave or didn't want to be Taunt bait.

 

[R_N]

I mean it sounds the problem is less "there's a great move to use in most instances" and more Normal's other alternatives are not inherently more interesting or notable, widespread &/or good outside of Body Slam

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Nothing used Crush Claw,

*Looks up Crush Claw's distribution.*

Geez, I wonder why.

It's a perfectly viable option though. Again, the removal of options is not a good thing. Ironically, you're caping for it for the exact reason said removal is a bad thing.

I'll gladly take an offensive nerf to an already-struggling offensive type if it means that the Pokemon and the people that use them can both express themselves through their pool of STAB moves and the ones they choose, respectively.

and pretty much the only time Body Slam was used was when something wasn't interested in being offensive, and either lacked Thunder Wave or didn't want to be Taunt bait.

So you mean that mons that had the option of taking utility over damage did use that option?

Thanks for proving me right I guess.

 

[Ironmage]

It's pretty obvious that it can be important to limit the distribution of a particularly strong move, but I would argue that Return isn't broken enough to need serious action and probably shouldn't have been removed. It's not like it's run on the vast majority of its potential users anyway (i.e. every non-Normal non-Ate user not named Klinklang). If I'm looking at Normal for its ability to be, well, normal, it having one of the better non-effect moves makes sense (and shifting primarily to Body Slam and its paralysis rate doesn't). If I'm instead looking at Normal for taking in things that don't fit elsewhere, there's not enough Normal signature moves going around but those that exist are used (and Crush Grip is the least of Regigigas' problems)

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I mean it sounds the problem is less "there's a great move to use in most instances" and more Normal's other alternatives are not inherently more interesting or notable, widespread &/or good outside of Body Slam

No, Normal's alternatives ARE more interesting, and being too widespread makes it harder for different Pokemon to stand out from one another. The problem is a modified version of what you said it isn't:

Return and Frustration (basically the same move) are so much stronger and more reliable than their alternatives that it renders the alternatives, with all their interesting trade-offs, almost completely unusable, and because Return and Frustration are learned by everything, the alternatives never get a chance. They're like invasive species that choke and overpower the native flora and fauna. There is no biodiversity. There is only Return and Frustration.

So you mean that mons that had the option of taking utility over damage did use that option?

Thanks for proving me right I guess.

Nah, fam. I'm speaking entirely from the perspective of an offensive Pokemon. Their primary goal is damage. They may chose a riskier move for more power (Fire Blast and Overheat vs Flamethrower), or a weaker move for utility (Scald vs Surf) but they will always be primarily concerned with damage. Body Slam may be somewhat interesting, but its chance to paralyze isn't worth the hefty power drop.

There's an interesting parallel to be made with special Grass moves. Giga Drain sees a lot more offensive use than Energy Ball, despite the similar drop in base power. This is because 1) passive healing is consistently very useful, both for bulky attackers and frailer ones that just want to recover from hazards and stay out of priority range (30% chance to paralyze is not consistently useful), and 2) Energy Ball is also competing with Leaf Storm, which is significantly stronger and still consistent in short bursts. Return and Frustration don't have a Leaf Storm. The closest they have is Double-Edge, with a significantly lesser increase in power.

 

[R_N]

e: You know what forget I'm getting too heated over something that jsut does not matter

 

[DrPumpkinz]

can you tell me what makes normal's alternatives interesting? Because clearly there's something fire's "less interesting" moves are doing that normal's are not.
You've got hte usual trade offs almost every type gets and then you have a couple moves that only have niche uses.

Maybe if the other normal alternatives were more inherently interesting, they'd have gotten used!

Double-Edge, Mega Kick, and Thrash are interesting for the same reasons Brave Bird, Fire Blast, or Outrage are interesting. They're powerful, but have some sort of risk attached (recoil, accuracy, and rampaging).

Facade (without self status) is interesting because it protects against the Attack drop of burn, and generally punishes the opponent for throwing around status conditions.

Body Slam is interesting because it has a decent chance to paralyze, and can even do so to Ground-types.

Crush Claw is interesting because it has a high chance to lower Defense, aiding in wallbreaking and pressuring switches.

Retaliate is interesting because it lets you come in for a revenge kill and nuke something.

The problem isn't that they aren't interesting enough. The problem is that Return and Frustration overshadow them having very low risk for a very high reward. Unless there's a Ditto on the opposing team, they have no interesting mechanics. They're just extremely good attacks and nothing else. And because every single Pokemon who would ever want to use a Normal attack can learn Return and Frustration, they consistently get chosen.

To reuse an analogy, imagine Normal moves as a garden. All those interesting moves I listed above are the flowers, each with their own shape, color, and aroma. Return and Frustration are the weeds that kill off the flowers because despite being ugly, they're just better at being plants.

 

[greentyphlosion]

Okay here's something that's bugged me in the last couple of days: why does sunlight not increase the likelihood that a frozen Pokemon will thaw? Fire-type moves will thaw the Pokemon whenever they hit, but the 20% defrost chance persists even under Drought/Sunny Day. You'd think it'd be 50% or higher.

You'd think considering that a frozen Pokemon is usually depicted as being encased in a block of ice Steel-, Rock-, and Fighting-type moves would deal increased damage or also give a higher chance to defrost, but that's probably pushing it.

 

[R_N]

Okay here's something that's bugged me in the last couple of days: why does sunlight not increase the likelihood that a frozen Pokemon will thaw? Fire-type moves will thaw the Pokemon whenever they hit, but the 20% defrost chance persists even under Drought/Sunny Day. You'd think it'd be 50% or higher.

You'd think considering that a frozen Pokemon is usually depicted as being encased in a block of ice Steel-, Rock-, and Fighting-type moves would deal increased damage or also give a higher chance to defrost, but that's probably pushing it.

Huh I thought that...

Pokémon cannot be frozen in harsh sunlight, but harsh sunlight does not affect when an already-frozen Pokémon thaws.

oh? That's so weird. You'd think it would at least boost the percentage, like you say, if not thaw out immediately.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Nah, fam. I'm speaking entirely from the perspective of an offensive Pokemon. Their primary goal is damage. They may chose a riskier move for more power (Fire Blast and Overheat vs Flamethrower), or a weaker move for utility (Scald vs Surf) but they will always be primarily concerned with damage. Body Slam may be somewhat interesting, but its chance to paralyze isn't worth the hefty power drop.

These could have the choice of more power with recoil (Double-Edge) or less power but no drawback (Return).

Return and Frustration don't have a Leaf Storm. The closest they have is Double-Edge, with a significantly lesser increase in power.

But still an 18BP difference without factoring *any* modifiers. This is a very significant increase, after all, it's similar to the 17BP between Return and Body Slam.

Double-Edge, Mega Kick, and Thrash are interesting for the same reasons Brave Bird, Fire Blast, or Outrage are interesting. They're powerful, but have some sort of risk attached (recoil, accuracy, and rampaging).

Facade (without self status) is interesting because it protects against the Attack drop of burn, and generally punishes the opponent for throwing around status conditions.

Body Slam is interesting because it has a decent chance to paralyze, and can even do so to Ground-types.

Crush Claw is interesting because it has a high chance to lower Defense, aiding in wallbreaking and pressuring switches.

Retaliate is interesting because it lets you come in for a revenge kill and nuke something.

The problem isn't that they aren't interesting enough. The problem is that Return and Frustration overshadow them having very low risk for a very high reward. Unless there's a Ditto on the opposing team, they have no interesting mechanics. They're just extremely good attacks and nothing else. And because every single Pokemon who would ever want to use a Normal attack can learn Return and Frustration, they consistently get chosen.

To reuse an analogy, imagine Normal moves as a garden. All those interesting moves I listed above are the flowers, each with their own shape, color, and aroma. Return and Frustration are the weeds that kill off the flowers because despite being ugly, they're just better at being plants.

All of these are nonsense. These moves are either just not good (Mega Kick), too gimmicky and inconsistent (Retaliate) or simply not used because as you said yourself, for an offensive mon, damage is the primary concern.

And would you look at that. For these cases, Double-Edge and Return do have an interesting dynamic going on.



You're caping for the removal of options that let players express themselves, at the expense of several mons that needed the move and the type itself that needed a consistent option to work around its offensive shortcomings.

The latter point is especially damning, because you're claiming that it was a good call to promote diversity when in fact, it removes most of the real choices. Every offensive mon now *has* to pick Double-Edge because there's no alternative with less than a 25BP drop. Tanks are especially hurt by this, as their have to pick between defensive value by not having a recoil move or going on the offense and losing their defensive value with Double-Edge.

So to put it bluntly, you're saying a lot of nonsense and contradicting yourself.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

These could have the choice of more power with recoil (Double-Edge) or less power but no drawback (Return).

But still an 18BP difference without factoring *any* modifiers. This is a very significant increase, after all, it's similar to the 17BP between Return and Body Slam.

In theory, yes. Double-Edge is a stronger but riskier alternative to Return and Frustration. In practice, almost nobody wants an extra 18 power at the cost of recoil. 102 power is enough is almost every instance, so Return and Frustration get used in almost every instance.

You're caping for the removal of options that let players express themselves, at the expense of several mons that needed the move and the type itself that needed a consistent option to work around its offensive shortcomings.

The latter point is especially damning, because you're claiming that it was a good call to promote diversity when in fact, it removes most of the real choices. Every offensive mon now *has* to pick Double-Edge because there's no alternative with less than a 25BP drop. Tanks are especially hurt by this, as their have to pick between defensive value by not having a recoil move or going on the offense and losing their defensive value with Double-Edge.

So to put it bluntly, you're saying a lot of nonsense and contradicting yourself.

I never said they shouldn't also buff some of those interesting options to fill the void left by Return and Frustration (Retaliate especially feels so close to being good). But I would genuinely prefer a shitty but interesting type to a boring and slightly-less-shitty type.

 

[Pikachu315111]

*Sees the above Normal-type discussion*

Maybe they should just increase the Power of the other Normal-type moves. Nothing is weak to Normal anyway so giving their "strong" options a slightly higher Power would make up for that, maybe even giving those moves a bit of an appeal if they have a Typed variation:

Double-Edge/Head Charge: 140 Power.
Mega Kick/Mega Punch: 120 Power is fine but gotta increase that Accuracy, like maybe 90%?
Egg Bomb: I'd actually make it into a Seismic Toss clone.
Uproar/Razor Wind/Relic Song: 100 Power.
Rock Climb/Take Down/Crush Claw: 90 Power & Accuracy 100%.
Hyper Fang/Body Slam/Chip Away/Dizzy Punch/Tri Attack: 90 Power.
Slam/Strength: 95 Power & Accuracy 100%.
Horn Attack/Stomp: 85 Power.
Facade/Retaliate/Slash: 80 Power.
Quick Attack: 55 Power.

 

[CPU]

Which move is sadder, Cut or Slam?

I honestly cant decide. It was definitely Cut in gen 5 but then they nerfed Tackle's power down in gen 6 so it's less obvious now.

 

[R_N]

Which move is sadder, Cut or Slam?

I honestly cant decide. It was definitely Cut in gen 5 but then they nerfed Tackle's power down in gen 6 so it's less obvious now.

Both are pretty bad but Cut is a 50 BP move with 95% accuracy and no secondary effect.

Even in the first 4 generations where it was better tackle (which, to be clear, gen 1-4 Tackle is also a sad move) it's probably still sadder because its meant as an upgrade and locked behind a HM. It's something you're going to be carrying for entirely too long!



I am honestly not sure why this move is still in the game, HMs are gone, it has no in-game niche and is now only learnable by 2 pokemon (1 of which isnt even in the game!).

 

[CPU]

Both are pretty bad but Cut is a 50 BP move with 95% accuracy and no secondary effect.

Even in the first 4 generations where it was better tackle (which, to be clear, gen 1-4 Tackle is also a sad move) it's probably still sadder because its meant as an upgrade and locked behind a HM. It's something you're going to be carrying for entirely too long!



I am honestly not sure why this move is still in the game, HMs are gone, it has no in-game niche and is now only learnable by 2 pokemon (1 of which isnt even in the game!).

Cut's biggest, long-standing issue is that you cant easily get rid of it. But it's early game, as you said. Slam, on the other hand, is often learned fairly late for a very unremarkable (and inconsistent) move.

Cut is pretty easy to give a solid, unique effect to; let it double in damage if used the first turn in battle (symbolic of the iai technique its Japanese name references). Still not great in the long run but you'll at least get use out of it.

 

[greentyphlosion]

Cut's biggest, long-standing issue is that you cant easily get rid of it. But it's early game, as you said. Slam, on the other hand, is often learned fairly late for a very unremarkable (and inconsistent) move.

Cut is pretty easy to give a solid, unique effect to; let it double in damage if used the first turn in battle (representative of the iai technique its Japanese name references). Still not great in the long run but you'll at least get use out of it.

I was about to reply "well, at least Slam has a chance to Paralyse..." but then checked and oh wait, no. I always thought it did (I guess I thought of it as a weaker variant of Body Slam since if I had to guess I would have said it had a base power of 60, not 80).

It also has a remarkably poor distribution for a move that's existed from the start and is so generic. Definitely sadder than Cut.

 

[CPU]

I was about to reply "well, at least Slam has a chance to Paralyse..." but then checked and oh wait, no. I always thought it did.

It also has a remarkably poor distribution for a move that's existed from the start and is so generic. Definitely sadder than Cut.

Slam is basically ghetto Power Whip at this point.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Which move is sadder, Cut or Slam?

Cut, 100%.

Slam at least has an use on the early-game, take GSC Wooper for example. It's a fairly strong, though inaccurate move.

Meanwhile, Cut's niche is... Literally just being an HM move.

To make things worse, it was the worst one. By mid-game in most of the games Cut is a field move, you don't need it anymore.

It's also a memetically bad field move, you literally get to remove a simple tree-shaped roadblock. That's it. You can't even make a puzzle with it.

Cut is a hilariously bad move, but there are worse. Shoutouts to Constrict.

 

[Blue glass]

Slam because in most playthroughs you don't even use a mon that can learn it and when you do there is no reason to teach a inaccurate move with middling power at that level.

At least you use Cut in the field even if it is obnoxious and the only mon that know it is the designated HM user.

 

[R_N]

Cut, 100%.

Slam at least has an use on the early-game, take GSC Wooper for example. It's a fairly strong, though inaccurate move.

Meanwhile, Cut's niche is... Literally just being an HM move.

To make things worse, it was the worst one. By mid-game in most of the games Cut is a field move, you don't need it anymore.

It's also a memetically bad field move, you literally get to remove a simple tree-shaped roadblock. That's it. You can't even make a puzzle with it.

Cut is a hilariously bad move, but there are worse. Shoutouts to Constrict.

Constrict definitely needed to get a power boost and 1have a 100% chance of lowering speed.



Is what I Would say if it didn't get completely removed from the game

 

[Master nicfer]

Unless GF ends up ditching Cut, a way to make it interesting could be if it were to be SE against the Grass-type. At least as a small curiosity nod.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Unless GF ends up ditching Cut, a way to make it interesting could be if it were to be SE against the Grass-type. At least as a small curiosity nod.

I wanna like this idea but...

Grass already has so many weaknesses man...