(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[Nokocchi]

Making Zing Zap widely distributed would also not help Luxray and Electivire from sucking. It would in fact help even less than Volt Tackle.

Not to mention that Zing Zap's Japanese name implies that you need be spiny to use it, which is why only Togedemaru and Pincurchin can learn it("Shocking and Prickly")

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Making Zing Zap widely distributed would also not help Luxray and Electivire from sucking. It would in fact help even less than Volt Tackle.

Yeah the issue with the physical Electric-types that exist isn't really that they lack a good STAB move. It's really a matter of everything else with the individual Pokemon and how they're built.

Luxray: It's slow, not that bulky, and doesn't have a way to boost its own power.
Electivire: Relies on low Base Power moves for coverage (elemental punches namely) or its other coverage moves come from its lower Special Attack, and it has no way to boost its power on either end of the spectrum, so it fails as a wallbreaker. Not to mention its Speed is a little too low for it to sweep. It's not strong enough and it's not fast enough.
Zebstrika: Has the right stats to be a sweeper, but its physical movepool is direly lacking. Flame Charge, Pursuit, and Thrash is a pretty sad physical movepool. It has Overheat, but that comes from its lower Special Attack. (That said, it does also get Low Kick as of Gen 8 according to HOME, so that's something, really)
Eelektross: Slow and has middling bulk.

Those four are just fundamentally flawed in some way or another because of either movepool issues or they are lacking in certain stats to make them strong enough for higher tier play, even if many of them may be very usable for in-game runs. To improve them they either need a movepool improvement or better stats in some regards.

 

[Nokocchi]

Zebstrika: Has the right stats to be a sweeper, but its physical movepool is direly lacking. Flame Charge, Pursuit, and Thrash is a pretty sad physical movepool. It has Overheat, but that comes from its lower Special Attack. (That said, it does also get Low Kick as of Gen 8 according to HOME, so that's something, really)

It got Low Kick starting in USUM. Seeing that you didn't realize that, it shows how little it helped overall.

 

[Hugin]

Yeah the issue with the physical Electric-types that exist isn't really that they lack a good STAB move. It's really a matter of everything else with the individual Pokemon and how they're built.

Those aren't the only physical electric types, though. There's Arctozolt, Dracozolt, Zekrom, and Zeraora, all of which are extremely viable in upper tiers, and all of which have a signature physical move. There's also Thundurus-I, Tapu Koko, and Regieleki, all of which are good pokemon with useable attack stats that never run physical sets because they don't get a good STAB.

There's a core question: Should generally special types get a good physical option? If the answer is yes, then then they should give Psychic/Fire/Electric/etc an 80 BP/100 acc move with wide distribution and no drawbacks. If no, then Dexit Waterfall.

Really, the issue is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of logic to which moves exist and get distributed and which don't. Some types get a pile of good attacking moves in the 80-120 bp range with a variety of balance factors, others get almost nothing. I'm not saying every type should be the same, but there should be a core template that each type normally gets, so that the deviations from that template can make sense and tell us more about the type.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Those aren't the only physical electric types, though. There's Arctozolt, Dracozolt, Zekrom, and Zeraora, all of which are extremely viable in upper tiers, and all of which have a signature physical move. There's also Thundurus-I, Tapu Koko, and Regieleki, all of which are good pokemon with useable attack stats that never run physical sets because they don't get a good STAB.

There's a core question: Should generally special types get a good physical option? If the answer is yes, then then they should give Psychic/Fire/Electric/etc an 80 BP/100 acc move with wide distribution and no drawbacks. If no, then Dexit Waterfall.

Really, the issue is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of logic to which moves exist and get distributed and which don't. Some types get a pile of good attacking moves in the 80-120 bp range with a variety of balance factors, others get almost nothing. I'm not saying every type should be the same, but there should be a core template that each type normally gets, so that the deviations from that template can make sense and tell us more about the type.

Zekrom and Zeraora would still be great Pokemon without Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt, and Plasma Fists, Thundurus does in fact sometimes run a Bulk Up set with Wild Charge, Tapu Koko mainly runs special sets because its only Fairy STAB is Dazzling Gleam, and Eleki runs special sets because Rising Voltage, Volt Switch, and Electroweb are special. The Zolts wouldn't be nearly as good without Bolt Beak but Bolt Beak is an absurd move that really can't be compared to any regular widely-distributed move.

Electric already has a good physical attacking move in the 80-120 bp range with wide distribution and no drawbacks. 1/4 recoil is barely a drawback.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Wild Charge isn't bad, y'all. 90 base power is solid, and the recoil is only 1/4. Many physical Electric-types have issues, but replacing Wild Charge with Volt Tackle won't fix those issues. Stop trying to turn Volt Tackle from a cool hidden move that you need to breed for into just some move that won't actually help anything.

It's like saying that Normal-types could settle for Take Down because Double-Edge ain't gonna fix their issues. (The accuracy isn't the same, I know, but the argument is about power.)

I can't imagine what you could possibly be thinking to say that.

Yeah, how instead of focusing on two Physical Electric-type moves which cause recoil we instead agree they should just make a better generic Physical Electric-type move. My suggestion: Circuit Break (my original thought is that its an Iron Head copy, though could also be a Liquidation copy; either works).

I have a cheaper idea.

Remember Electro Ball? Make it physical, 90BP, no drawbacks.

Boom. It just works.

Normally I advocate for more moves with flavor, but Physical Electrics lack a basic reliable STAB, so they need that before the quirky stuff.

Those aren't the only physical electric types, though. There's Arctozolt, Dracozolt, Zekrom, and Zeraora, all of which are extremely viable in upper tiers, and all of which have a signature physical move. There's also Thundurus-I, Tapu Koko, and Regieleki, all of which are good pokemon with useable attack stats that never run physical sets because they don't get a good STAB.

There's a core question: Should generally special types get a good physical option? If the answer is yes, then then they should give Psychic/Fire/Electric/etc an 80 BP/100 acc move with wide distribution and no drawbacks. If no, then Dexit Waterfall.

Really, the issue is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of logic to which moves exist and get distributed and which don't. Some types get a pile of good attacking moves in the 80-120 bp range with a variety of balance factors, others get almost nothing. I'm not saying every type should be the same, but there should be a core template that each type normally gets, so that the deviations from that template can make sense and tell us more about the type.

Speaking of flavor...

I personally believe that all types should have a basic, drawback-free, well-distributed move in the range of 80/90 BP.

Then, with the failsafe/widespread coverage option out of the way, you can have moves that add flavor to the types themselves, for example, Frost Breath and Freeze-Dry.

 

[Ironmage]

There's a core question: Should generally special types get a good physical option? If the answer is yes, then then they should give Psychic/Fire/Electric/etc an 80 BP/100 acc move with wide distribution and no drawbacks. If no, then Dexit Waterfall.

There's the other side of this too: should primarily physical types like fighting get widespread reliable special moves?

As a reference, I've gone and sorted the types based on the difference between the average Attack and Special attack for fully evolved mons (data from Bulbapedia):

physically biased: delta>10

Fighting: Delta 46.56
Ground: Delta 34.13
Rock: Delta 31.75
Steel: Delta 30.65
Dark: Delta 20.18
Bug: Delta 18.1
Normal: Delta 17.32

neutral: 10>=Delta>=-10

Ice: Delta 7.35
Grass: Delta 6.74
Water: Delta 2.23
Flying: Delta 0.73
Poison: Delta -0.56
Dragon: Delta -1.9
Ghost: Delta -2.22
Fire: -6.77

specially biased: Delta <-10

Fairy: Delta -10.71
Electric: Delta -16.89
Psychic: Delta -19.5

If we're saying move utility should align with the stat distribution of the type itself, Earth Power has no business being as good as it is.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

It's like saying that Normal-types could settle for Take Down because Double-Edge ain't gonna fix their issues. (The accuracy isn't the same, I know, but the argument is about power.)

I can't imagine what you could possibly be thinking to say that.

I can't imagine what you could possibly be thinking to say that either, because I didn't say that. Take Down's shaky accuracy a much bigger downside than its 1/4 recoil. Scrafty spelled it out nicely. The Pokemon that people complain would be good if they only had a """good""" STAB would still be bad, because lack of a """good""" STAB isn't what makes them bad.

(also, most Normal-types aren't good, and weren't good even when Return was a thing, so yeah, there's more to a Pokemon's viability than """good""" STAB)

 

[Hugin]

Zekrom and Zeraora would still be great Pokemon without Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt, and Plasma Fists, Thundurus does in fact sometimes run a Bulk Up set with Wild Charge, Tapu Koko mainly runs special sets because its only Fairy STAB is Dazzling Gleam, and Eleki runs special sets because Rising Voltage, Volt Switch, and Electroweb are special. The Zolts wouldn't be nearly as good without Bolt Beak but Bolt Beak is an absurd move that really can't be compared to any regular widely-distributed move.

Electric already has a good physical attacking move in the 80-120 bp range with wide distribution and no drawbacks. 1/4 recoil is barely a drawback.

In competitive, 1/4 recoil is basically losing 25% of your HP every time you faint a fellow sweeper, more when you faint a wall. Dealing 50% to something on the switch is basically an extra SR switch-in. That's pretty significant. In-game, recoil moves are a steady tax on your healing items and attention. Yes, you can compensate, but there's no reason that the games should make us, except that GF has decided for whatever reason not to bother with giving Eelektross et al an electric-type Crunch.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The Pokemon that people complain would be good if they only had a """good""" STAB would still be bad, because lack of a """good""" STAB isn't what makes them bad.

While that is a thing, it's not far-fetched to expect the same "bad" mon to perform better with actual STAB to back it up.

Flare Blitz may not have shot Flareon all the way up to OU, but ask people if they wanna go back to Meme Flareon.

Electivire would still have issues with Volt Tackle, everyone knows that. That does not mean it's not valid to want a better option.

Wild Charge is not a good STAB option. Hugin explained why perfectly.

Physical Electrics are taking recoil damage for the same Base Power all the Special Electrics spamming TBolt had since Gen 1.

Volt Tackle would at least give them a 120BP option, which by the way, is 33% stronger. Not insignificant.

It would at least justify the drawback, even if it wouldn't solve the bigger issue of the lack of plain, reliable STAB options.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

While that is a thing, it's not far-fetched to expect the same "bad" mon to perform better with actual STAB to back it up.

Is... is that supposed to be revelatory? Yeah obviously getting a stronger STAB move would make a Pokemon comparatively stronger than it was before. That's just kinda how the damage formula works.

That does not mean it's not valid to want a better option.

Perhaps, but clambering to make the game less interesting by either stripping it of a cool secret or introducing a bland white bread 80 power move, all without actually accomplishing the entire point of this change which is to make Pokemon like Electivire and Luxray not suck ass, is a really fucking stupid way to go about it. It's near the top of the list of genuinely awful ideas that are super popular among fans, right up there with "make Electivire part Fighting" and "make Hail boost Defense".

 

[The Mind Electric]

Perhaps, but clambering to make the game less interesting by either stripping it of a cool secret or introducing a bland white bread 80 power move, all without actually accomplishing the entire point of this change which is to make Pokemon like Electivire and Luxray not suck ass, is a really fucking stupid way to go about it. It's near the top of the list of genuinely awful ideas that are super popular among fans, right up there with "make Electivire part Fighting" and "make Hail boost Defense".

It's more interesting that physical Electric types don't have access to the same basic STAB moves that special Electric types get? What?

 

[Fusion Flare]

i mean if i wanted DPP electivire to not suck ass, i'd just drop it to DPP UU. sure it's impossible thanks to the low ladderers that froze it into OU, but it wouldn't be terrible there!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

It's more interesting that physical Electric types don't have access to the same basic STAB moves that special Electric types get? What?

Thunderbolt is boring, yes. As is having physical and special attackers of a given type be basically interchangable.

 

[Siggu]

At the very least it's inexplicable that the elemental punches have such a mediocre 75 BP. Physical attackers have to get through WAY more roadblocks than special attackers (Physical attackers have to deal with Intimidate, burns, abilities or items that activate on contact -since most moves that make contact are physical-, while special attackers only have to deal with the Assault Vest, not counting signature abilities or effects that mitigate both physical and special damage) and then they have their equivalents of special moves weaker, for some reason.

 

[Wukong]

At the very least it's inexplicable that the elemental punches have such a mediocre 75 BP. Physical attackers have to get through WAY more roadblocks than special attackers (Physical attackers have to deal with Intimidate, burns, abilities or items that activate on contact -since most moves that make contact are physical-, while special attackers only have to deal with the Assault Vest, not counting signature abilities or effects that mitigate both physical and special damage) and then they have their equivalents of special moves weaker, for some reason.

I don't know physical attackers have had some tools up their sleeve over the years. Dragon Dance for example has better distribution than Quiver Dance. Swords Dance was there for three generations before Nasty Plot (though Amnesia makes up for it in Gen 1) and might still have better overall distribution. Most priority moves are physical, Bullet Punch and ExtremeSpeed being the most famous probably. And Close Combat and Earthquake were some of the best moves in the game for years even compared to their special counterparts. Fighting and Ground also have great coverage by themselves and both pair well with Rock for solid all around coverage. All three of those types are predominantly physical based.

Overall I don't think it's that unbalanced. If I think of some of the most meta game defining Pokémon in history (Tauros, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Scizor) all of them are physical leaning. Maybe we're going through a special leaning phase now, I don't know I haven't really kept up. But physical attackers have had their fair share over the years.

 

[Worldie]

Maybe phisical attackers get the shaft because in VGC they're the one who created the infamous 30% chance to flinch game which made games very fun.

A less meme response, phisical attacks generally have stronger impact on VGC level than special ones. Rock Slide, most priority moves, Earthquake being for several gens the most common phisical ground attack, elemental fists having way more distribution than their special counterpart (how many non-gen 1 non ice/water types learn Ice Beam, how many non electric/psychic types learn Thunderbolt and how many non fire/dragon types learn Flamethrower compared to Ice, Thunder and FIre Punch, for example?)

Wider distribution / stronger doubles impact is likely why phisical attackers have to deal with more ""counterplay"" in the form of intimidate and contact-triggered abilities compared to special ones.

(This is your daily reminder that as far as balancing goes, singles more or less do not exist outside of 3v3 BSS with a low timer and dynamax allowed)

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

At the very least it's inexplicable that the elemental punches have such a mediocre 75 BP. Physical attackers have to get through WAY more roadblocks than special attackers (Physical attackers have to deal with Intimidate, burns, abilities or items that activate on contact -since most moves that make contact are physical-, while special attackers only have to deal with the Assault Vest, not counting signature abilities or effects that mitigate both physical and special damage) and then they have their equivalents of special moves weaker, for some reason.

They're from a time when they were supposed to be mid-game special moves, intended to be upgraded into TBolt and the like. They and the Fangs could probably get bumped to 80/85BP tbh.

Perhaps, but clambering to make the game less interesting by either stripping it of a cool secret or introducing a bland white bread 80 power move, all without actually accomplishing the entire point of this change which is to make Pokemon like Electivire and Luxray not suck ass, is a really fucking stupid way to go about it. It's near the top of the list of genuinely awful ideas that are super popular among fans, right up there with "make Electivire part Fighting" and "make Hail boost Defense".

You sound angry. I dunno why you catching feelings on a Sunday because some people want a type to not need to rely on wack moves, but it's really not that serious.

 

[CPU]

The biggest issue between physical and special moves isn't the power, it's how special moves can easily be made "generic," or not tied to specific body parts/actions, where as physical moves usually are.

Tri Attack/Hyper Voice, Flamethrower, Surf, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Aura Sphere (for lack of a better option here; it at least is a TR now), Sludge Bomb/Wave, Earth Power, Air Slash (there's an odd gap here for sure), Psychic, Bug Buzz, Power Gem, Shadow Ball, Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon, Moonblast/Dazzling Gleam

Almost all of the "generic" "strong" special options for moves aren't tied to specific body parts or being able to perform specific actions and involve shooting/projecting energy to attack. Easily distributable and applicable. The only ones, IMO, that are "restricted" by the user are the Normal-typed options, Power Gem, and Moonblast (which at least gets a widely-distributed, only-slightly-weaker replacement for singles). Bug Buzz should be (why can Accelgor get this), and possibly Flash Cannon as well, but basically all Steel types have a metallic luster so it's a moot point.

There are exceptions on the Physical side, but they tend to be indirect contact attacks (Earthquake, Rock Slide, perhaps options like Seed Bomb and Icicle Crash as well). Ramming attacks have become more commonplace and can make for a good physical option that is easily distributed, but most of these come with a recoil penalty. Physical moves tend to have more "cost-of-use" requirements or considerations than their similarly-powered special counterparts as well. Wild Charge vs Thunderbolt has been talked about a lot here (recoil), but there's also examples like Icicle Crash vs Ice Beam (weaker AND imperfect accuracy) and Phantom Force or Poltergeist vs Shadow Ball (both stronger than the premier special Ghost move, but Phantom Force has a charge-up turn, and Poltergeist has imperfect accuracy as well as the conditional of the target needing to be holding an item).

Anyway, as a result, physical moves tend to be more specialized than their... special... counterparts, which limits their distribution and leads to a lot of good physical options being signature moves.

I also once heard someone talk about how a lot of types have a specific kind of "move design" which reflects on the effects or drawbacks of a move, but i don't feel like getting into that.

 

[Fusion Flare]

Yeah the issue with the physical Electric-types that exist isn't really that they lack a good STAB move. It's really a matter of everything else with the individual Pokemon and how they're built.

Luxray: It's slow, not that bulky, and doesn't have a way to boost its own power.
Electivire: Relies on low Base Power moves for coverage (elemental punches namely) or its other coverage moves come from its lower Special Attack, and it has no way to boost its power on either end of the spectrum, so it fails as a wallbreaker. Not to mention its Speed is a little too low for it to sweep. It's not strong enough and it's not fast enough.
Zebstrika: Has the right stats to be a sweeper, but its physical movepool is direly lacking. Flame Charge, Pursuit, and Thrash is a pretty sad physical movepool. It has Overheat, but that comes from its lower Special Attack. (That said, it does also get Low Kick as of Gen 8 according to HOME, so that's something, really)
Eelektross: Slow and has middling bulk.

Those four are just fundamentally flawed in some way or another because of either movepool issues or they are lacking in certain stats to make them strong enough for higher tier play, even if many of them may be very usable for in-game runs. To improve them they either need a movepool improvement or better stats in some regards.

I thought that the general consensus (on FSG anyway) was that unlike the upper 3, Eelektross is a much better pokemon in the lower tiers. Decent in NU, Good in RU, and Great in PU. Luxray and Electivire wish they could have as good as a tiering run as the eel.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I thought that the general consensus (on FSG anyway) was that unlike the upper 3, Eelektross is a much better pokemon in the lower tiers. Decent in NU, Good in RU, and Great in PU. Luxray and Electivire wish they could have as good as a tiering run as the eel.

Oh it is, for sure. Part of it is that it also has a pretty solid Special Attack and a colorful special movepool while it can effectively use Assault Vest in later gens to use Electric-type's nice defensive qualities in tandem with a slow Volt Switch, plus thanks to Levitate it has no weaknesses and is Spikes immune. It's a lower-tier mon still, even though it is a good lower tier mon as in Gen 5 NU it was an excellent wallbreaker with its wide movepool on both ends while it has enough bulk to take a few hits unlike, say, Electivire, while in Gen 6 RU and Gen 7 PU it functions as a pivot thanks to its access to a slow Volt Switch, as well as utility in Knock Off and its good coverage.

I brought it up ultimately because at the end of the day, it's still a lower tier mon that doesn't really stand much of a chance in higher tiers and is slightly more physical oriented than special oriented among the Electric-type brethren. Even though it has a commendable track record in the lower tiers it's been in it has never stood much of a chance in higher tiers, which puts it in the boat of the likes of Samurott (who had a remarkable track record in NU for three gens straight even though it obviously has no shot at being viable in higher ones). It's not as flawed as the other three, but it's flawed enough to a point where it's not cut out for higher tier play. I cannot attest to its track record in VGC unfortunately, though I've heard it was pretty common in VGC 11 and still viable in VGC 12, which is something commendable, to say the least. I suppose it wasn't legal in later VGCs though as it never showed up in a regional dex ever again after Gen 5, so who knows if it could've been viable in Gen 6/7 VGC...

 

[Coronis]

Ooh, I have an idea! Maybe they should have made his team based on your Starter! Here's my suggestion:

Grookey: Uses a Hail/Sandstorm Team: Abomasnow, Arctovish, Kommo-o, Gigalith, Duraludon
Scorbunny: Uses a Rain/Sandstorm Team: Pelipper, Blastoise (Rain Dish), Goodra, Gigalith, Duraludon
Sobble: Uses Sun/Sandstrom Team: Torkoal, Venusaur (Chlorophyll), Turtonator, Gigalith, Duraludon

Basic Idea for all teams: Send out the first weather maker that would make the weather condition Starter will have disadvantage in. His first three Pokemon will be able to take advantage of that weather. However, as soon as those three Pokemon are down, sends out Gigalith to summon a Sandstorm (and just for fun, give it Explosion which it uses first move if possible; the goal here is to have Sandstorm out for Duraludon).

Not bad, except I would swap the Hail to Sobble and the Sun to Grookey.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Not bad, except I would swap the Hail to Sobble and the Sun to Grookey.

Water-type resist Ice which would weaken the power increasing of Ice-type moves, the only benefit having Hail against a Water-type is the end of turn damage.

Also don't forget that not only does Sunny Day halve the Power of Water-type moves but, though Torkoal is still weak to Water, Venusaur's Chlorophyll makes it a speedy tank (plus Solar Beam fires instantly) & Turtonator is part Dragon so is neutral to Water.

 

[misterdarvus]

I have bad luck with Pokemon that its encounter tied with your Trainer ID

I started a new Crystal save, thinking that I'm gonna add Heracross in my team. Heracross' headbutt tree location is tied to your last digit of your PID Guess what? My PID is the one with no trees that spawn Heracross, and its the only 1 out of ten!

In separate occasion, I also started new Platinum save. At gym 2 I want to add Rampardos in my team. Digging thru the underground and all I got is Shieldon's fossil. Then I checked that in Platinum, fossil drops is tied to your PID last digit , AGAIN. This time is depends on even-odd number.

Moral of the story: check and roll your desired PID everytime you starts a new game, just in case.

 

[girazard]

It's near the top of the list of genuinely awful ideas that are super popular among fans, right up there with "make Electivire part Fighting" and "make Hail boost Defense".

Sound great to me.