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Little things you like about Pokémon

Worldie said:
I'd be interested in what your definition is for it, since in my opinion a "mixed attacker" is simply a offensive oriented pokemon that has close enough special and phisical stat (and possibly, the movepool to accomodate it) to be able to feasibly run both phisical and special moves at same time despite investing in only one (or even investing in both).

...Which 90% of the time ended up in still using only a single stat (see Dragapult or Greninja) because realistically speaking unless there's very specific movepool situations or you are looking for a lure set, even if you have exactly equal spatk and atk, you'd rather fully invest in one of them to be able to hit harder without nerfing your defenses or speed via nature.

The only similar case I can really think of recently was Mega Salamence who (mostly in doubles) would go special with a -def nature in order to have access to both a strong Hyper Voice / Draco Meteor, but also being able to hit hard on phisical side with Double Edge / Return or Earthquake, and even that was mostly due to the fact that you had no good special normal/flying stab, but also no good phisical dragon stab (unless you fancied locking yourself in Outrage or risking Dragon Rush misses), and in a scenario where Salamence had both reliable +spammable stabs in one direction, it'd really just rather have gone full phis or full special.
Which is basically Iron Valiant's scenario, where if it had Play Rough or a special high BP stab that didnt feature 30% miss chance, it's unlikely people would even consider going mixed outside of some lure sets
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What I see as mixed attackers (or at least a successful ones) are mons like Iron Valiant, doubles Mega Salamence as you described, Mega Diancie, and Mega Garchomp (though I get the sense that Mega Chomp being a successful mixed attacker was unintentional on Game Freak's part). Pokemon that have it in their best interest to run mixed sets.

Keep in mind that I don't see "successful" and "viable" as meaning the same thing. Dragapult and Scovillain are very viable Pokemon, but they're not successful mixed attackers. Cacturne's viability may be dogshit, but I still consider it a successful mixed attacker.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
Keep in mind that I don't see "successful" and "viable" as meaning the same thing. Dragapult and Scovillain are very viable Pokemon, but they're not successful mixed attackers. Cacturne's viability may be dogshit, but I still consider it a successful mixed attacker.
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Ok, so I think the thing was that you meant "viable" mixed attacker, in which case I do agree with you.

Though it's a bit of a oof that in order to make a viable mixed attacker, what ends up mattering is actually not having good reliable stats, so running mixed is something you do as a consequence of not having both reliable strong stabs, and not an actual interest in running split offenses.

Main reason I thought of Scovillain is that (in the tier it's viable in which tbfh may end up not existing :tymp: ) is that it actually has solid split offenses... but will always run full special cause it does actually have high BP stabs in both (even has Solar Beam which solidifies it as clorophyl mon), but would end up using phisical coverage since it doesnt have any good special one anyway, but has access to some ok phisical non stab coverage while basically having no usable special coverage.
Poor scovillain, was this close to be good, yet so far, just needed slightly higher offenses, 108 just doesn't really cut it in 2023 for a glass cannon :blobpensive:
 
toucannon.gif

bicannon :)
 
I think the thing that contributes most immediately to a Mixed Attacker is the environment of stuff it fights, so it's hard to say a Pokemon is "successful" per the above discussion without looking at what it has to target. Would Iron Valiant's Mixed sets be as big a deal in an environment where its Fighting STAB didn't get much mileage due to, say, a shortage of viable Steel Types? Or Close Combat might be preferred even over a Special Fighting STAB (let's imagine a Special-Accurate option just existed for argument's sake) in a Metagame where Blissey showed up more to stop Special Attackers (or the Reverse of running Special Psychic over Zen due to Physically-invested Bulky Poison types like Amoonguss or avoiding contact with Rocky Helmet Mons for example).

This is what I think makes the Mixed Attacker topic fascinating: Since the main appeal is versatility, it's one of the most Meta-dependent roles to find value in because it needs both capability in moves/stats (Scovillain falling short there compared to something like old Infernape) without overwhelming on either by default (Mega Lucario for an extreme case, as either "focused" set was already strong enough to break its "intended" defensive stops) and use cases in what it's dealing with (Protean Greninja mostly cared about mixed because Gunk Shot was how it got past staple Clefable, for example, if not just bowling things over with Battle Bond's raw Power, see point 2). Their circumstances for seeing viable play are highly specific, but given those circumstances, they have very unorthodox or at least more specific counterplay and thus can be very influential presences when those stars align. Compared to other roles usually showing a gradual decline from power creep or an uptick from gaining a new tool, Mixed Attackers as both a role and looking at individual Pokemon can fluctuate heavily in value
 
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Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant are my two favorite Paradox Pokemon, and these two are direct counterparts among them and share the same distinct standout properties as the "final boss" Paradox mons of the lot, having 590 BST, being among the legendaries in the Pokedex order, and whatnot. They are also the most different since Roaring Moon draws more from Mega Salamence while Iron Valiant is a hybrid of Gallade and Gardevoir (and also draws from their Megas to an extent).

But what's pretty damn cool is that the basis of these two works well with respect to each other flavor wise, and one thing I like about this duo is that together they (whether intentionally or not) end up embodying the dichotomy of dragon vs knight: the bestial, dreadful dragon and the warrior knight who serves to strike it down, because of the species they derive from.

Iron Valiant is a hybrid of Gardevoir and Gallade, who are both perhaps the most "knightly", "chivalrous" Pokemon in existence. Gardevoir's name in Japanese even translates to "Sir Knight". It is in lore a loyal, devoted, guardian of a Trainer is shares a close bond with, it will protect its Trainer with its life, true to how an ideal knight in fiction would act. PLA's Dex entry (from Laventon's POV) even describes its "dress" as akin to that of nobility. Gallade is a more obviously designed warrior, it is a swordsman with blades for arms. It is attuned to the wishes of others for help, it will rush in to guard those in need of protecting. And it is a masterful sword fighter but also very honorable and courteous in combat, true to the ideal image of a knight, albeit in a different fashion from Gardevoir.

Roaring Moon is more based on Salamence (albeit Mega Salamence), who is basically the embodiment of the textbook European bestial dragon you often see in folklore. There isn't much to say about it, but among the many Dragon-types we had Salamence is basically standout for being the textbook bestial monster that we often think of European dragons as. Its physique is built like one, it can fly, it breathes fire, and it's aggressive and often destroys its enemies with its breath of fire and shredding claws.

Their respective dual typings complement each other well in this regard, with the knight being the one who slays the Dragon. Iron Valiant's dual typing is a hybrid of both Gallade and Gardevoir's second typings (Fairy and Fighting), but both of these types also happen to be advantageous against Roaring Moon's type combination, which is Dragon and Dark. Fairy is the type that slays Dragon, while Fighting is advantageous against Dark with Fighting type representing the honorable warrior vs Dark being "Evil-type" in Japanese and the type representing either dishonorable/dirty tactics or sheer malice. Hence Iron Valiant having a total advantage against Roaring Moon: Iron Valiant being derivative of a pair of knightly/chivalrous mons while Roaring Moon is a derivative of the textbook bestial monster dragon.

Many Paradox counterpart duos come off as rather arbitrary as to who is a counterpart to who, aside from the Volcaronas and Donphans, but this one, being the "special" pair of Paradoxes above the rest barring the cover legends, is a clever pair as to Valiant and Moon in particular being counterparts with each other, in a pretty fun way imo.

(Yes, for the record I know all of the Paradoxes in universe are depicted as aggressive and cruel, but that can be attributed to them being not of this world and being in a world that they don't belong in, similar to the Ultra Beasts, who are also extremely aggressive to everything in the normal world, and despite the differences both are foreign to the normal Pokemon world and are likely on guard attacking things that are unfamiliar to them as they live in a world where they don't belong).
 
ScraftyIsTheBest said:
(Yes, for the record I know all of the Paradoxes in universe are depicted as aggressive and cruel, but that can be attributed to them being not of this world and being in a world that they don't belong in, similar to the Ultra Beasts, who are also extremely aggressive to everything in the normal world, and despite the differences both are foreign to the normal Pokemon world and are likely on guard attacking things that are unfamiliar to them as they live in a world where they don't belong).
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I think a couple like Iron Hands lack any direct mention that they are specifically aggressive, Iron Thorns explicitly saying it avoids conflict compared to the vicious Tyranitar, and while a lot are aggressive, only some like Iron Valiant, Jugulis, and Moth are specifically described in a manner of being targeted/cruel compared to automatic or defensive aggression as one might attribute to animalistic creatures. While it is a trend, I do think that going out of their way to mention it on Iron Valiant, especially given its bases, does make it worthy of consideration on that specific mon's design philosophy and portrayal.
 
Been playing through Violet and while I still have a ways to go in terms of completing it, one thing I really like from exploring Glaseado Mountain is seeing how Pyroar show up.

While I was exploring the mountain I would often see Pyroar in two ways: a pack containing one male Pyroar surrounded by a group of female Pyroar, and oftentimes I would also often see a male Pyroar surrounded by a group of Litleo.

This is pretty neat because this is very reflective of lion prides and how they are often formed and structured in real life. In-game this was already lampshaded all the way from Pyroar's debut back in X and Y by their gender ratio being 1:7 male female (aka significantly more likely to be female), reflecting the fact that lion prides often consist of one male and a group of females, but the packs of them in SV really reflect this.

Oftentimes a lion pride consists of one male lion and a group of female lions, along with the cubs. The female lions (or as I should say, lionesses) are all responsible for hunting and gathering food for the pride, while the male is more passive and stays in the pride's territory to protect its cubs and also keeping an eye out for other male lions who might come in to try to take over the pride and territory. This is reflected in both formations of Litleo/Pyroar packs you can encounter in SV in Glaseado Mountain: the fact that one male lion is surrounded by multiple lionesses in the potential packs you can encounter consisting of one male Pyroar and multiple female Pyroar, and the latter tendency for male adult lions to stay in the territory protecting the cubs is reflected in the other potential scenario, a pack consisting of one male Pyroar and a group of Litleo (the cubs).

I think that's a pretty neat way to shout out real lion pride formations (which Pyroar's Pokedex entries allude to as well), especially in SV with the two ways Pyroar have shown up in packs.
 
Pyroar is the only evolution family to have the 1:7 distinction in that order, which makes realistic sense but not for gameplay.

DifferentDimensionVanessa said:
The glitches in RBY and how they impact how you teambuild for competitive on simulators. I never played them but got interested in it.
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I liked how crits were determined by Speed, and how Hyper Beam did not force recharge after a KO. This could've been retained in Let's Go, but that's unfortunate it didn't.
 
While I'm disappointment that Scarlet and Violet didn't give any Pokemon stat buffs, I do like how they giga-buffed certain Pokemon that were falling behind. Obviously we all know about Gallade (who is one of my favs) getting Sharpness, but there are a few others. Altaria, for example, got Brave Bird and Will-O-Wisp (which I didn't know until I saw it in a random battle lol) which drastically increases its utility and damage output compared to prior generations. Like its still weaker than other Dragon's like Mence, but having a significantly stronger main STAB move goes a long way in closing the gap.

252 Atk Altaria Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 222-264 (57.9 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 232-276 (60.5 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO

Haunter is another notable Pokemon that got severely buffed for some reason, gaining both Focus Blast and Nasty Plot. I actually like Haunter way more than Gengar, so this is a win for me haha. A few other notable buffs I ran across were Slaking getting Sucker Punch and Hariyama getting Drain Punch.

Granted, a lot of these buffed are balanced out by the fact that many of the returning Pokemon were severely nerfed due to mechanics changes or losing Transfer moves. Also a lot of Pokemon like Swalot and Hypno just didn't get anything to help them stand out from the pack, which is a shame.
 
Magcargo said:
Haunter is another notable Pokemon that got severely buffed for some reason, gaining both Focus Blast and Nasty Plot.
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I think this isn't really a case of "buff" rather fixing movepool inconsistency with Gengar, since the old gen 1 trade evos tend to have identical movepools to not punish people unable to trade in-game too much

Magcargo said:
Also a lot of Pokemon like Swalot and Hypno just didn't get anything to help them stand out from the pack, which is a shame.
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To be fair, at this point it starts to get very difficult to make a pokemon "stand from the pack".
I mean sure, you can keep giving out signature skills but... that doesn't really solve much. There's only so much flavour you can put in monotypes, expecially older gens ones which don't really have the most inspired design. Like you could give Hypno a 100% accurate sleep move "for flavour", and that still wouldn't make it get used over other faster, stronger psychic types, not on Smogon (since sleep clause exists), nor in VGC (if you're looking to use psychic types, there's a trillion better options both as TR setters and as offensive threats), and even in game it'd... "just be another mono psychic type".

I know I say this a lot, but with now over 1000 pokemon (without even accounting for forms), we have to accept that a lot will just be "generic something", kinda like there's 3 million bulky waters, 3 million regional rodents and 3 million regional birds that functionally do all the same in game thus you'd use them only if you really like one over the other, and often have near 0 competitive viability even down in PU.
There is sadly only so much you can do to give a pokemon flavour and actually achieve something in their usability.
 
:sv/Slither Wing:

Just this thing in general. There's not exactly much articulate or extraordinary about my talk here, I just like the big fuzzy bug design, its stats and typing are neat without looking try-hard OP (looking at you Gholdengo), and I find its insect like behavior endearing with how it's one of the non-aggressive paradoxes. At the least, I never found it running after me like most of the others when I was Shiny hunting (all the others except Flutter Mane would pose and then charge, while FM would just kind of watch and maybe aggro if you fought something), while this little fella just kinda stands up and looks at you.

Also think it's neat as more of an evolved Larvesta compared to Volcarona itself (being more physical and land-bound than the Special-Floating moth).
 
I have been battling a lot in the Platinum Battle Frontier lately, and one thing I really like about it is how three of the facilities there allow you to override the item clause. It is very strict in the Tower and Factory, the latter is even more strict than it was in Emerald. But in the Hall, Arcade and Castle, you can have the same item on multiple Pokémon.

- In the Hall, you only have one Pokémon for Single, but you have two for Double, and you can give the same item to both of them since it would be unfair otherwise. The reason for this is that there's only one opposing set for each Pokémon in the Hall, which means that in Double, the opponents you face will always be the same set, and that means they will be holding the same item.
- In the Arcade, when you get items from the board, the same item will be given to your entire team.
- In the Castle, you can buy items freely (as long as you have enough CP), including the same item for two Pokémon, or even all three. I think this gives you an unfair advantage over the opponent since they seem to still be restricted to the regular item clause, at least I don't remember ever facing an opposing team where there were more than one of a specific hold item. I haven't done a complete check of this though, so I might be wrong here.

In Emerald, two of the facilities also allows you to override the item clause. The Tower, Dome, Arena, Palace and Pike are all very strict, while the Pyramid and Factory lets you have multiple of the same item.

- In the Pyramid, you are restricted to the items you can find on the floor, which lets you have multiple of the same item on your team.
- The Emerald Factory isn't as strict as the Platinum Factory in terms of hold items. You can face a opposing Pokémon which has the same hold item as one of the Pokémon you are using, and you are allowed to swap for said Pokémon afterwards, letting you have two or even all three members on your team hold the same item.

I think this is quite cool, I had never really thought about it before.
 
you can also swing the camera around and check that way
they aren't aggressive so yo ucan take your time on it iirc
 
Worldie said:
I think this isn't really a case of "buff" rather fixing movepool inconsistency with Gengar, since the old gen 1 trade evos tend to have identical movepools to not punish people unable to trade in-game too much


To be fair, at this point it starts to get very difficult to make a pokemon "stand from the pack".
I mean sure, you can keep giving out signature skills but... that doesn't really solve much. There's only so much flavour you can put in monotypes, expecially older gens ones which don't really have the most inspired design. Like you could give Hypno a 100% accurate sleep move "for flavour", and that still wouldn't make it get used over other faster, stronger psychic types, not on Smogon (since sleep clause exists), nor in VGC (if you're looking to use psychic types, there's a trillion better options both as TR setters and as offensive threats), and even in game it'd... "just be another mono psychic type".

I know I say this a lot, but with now over 1000 pokemon (without even accounting for forms), we have to accept that a lot will just be "generic something", kinda like there's 3 million bulky waters, 3 million regional rodents and 3 million regional birds that functionally do all the same in game thus you'd use them only if you really like one over the other, and often have near 0 competitive viability even down in PU.
There is sadly only so much you can do to give a pokemon flavour and actually achieve something in their usability.
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I actually lied about Swalot, it did get some big buffs like Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, and Toxic Spikes, along with Body Press which it can combo w/ Acid Armor. Don't think these are gonna make it a staple by any means, or even let it stand out for that matter, but they still are appreciated.

Yeah, I don't think every Pokemon needs to be unique or good to justify their existence. Take Spidops for example. Easily considered the worst of Gen 9's new Pokemon stat-wise and it doesn't actually stand out from most older Pokemon outside of having a mid signature move and Sticky Web, which is mostly a unique novelty in this game specifically and will likely be gone once home transfers become a thing. Its not that bulky or that strong, and that's ok. It still has some good points and traits despite not being all that unique. Sure, it could have had way better stats and a cooler secondary typing, but I think that would have taken away from some of its charm. Pokemon like Spidops serve a very important purpose, which serving as a baseline to make other Pokemon around it feel more special. Because if everything is special and unique, nothing is.
 
Magcargo said:
I actually lied about Swalot, it did get some big buffs like Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, and Toxic Spikes, along with Body Press which it can combo w/ Acid Armor. Don't think these are gonna make it a staple by any means, or even let it stand out for that matter, but they still are appreciated.

Yeah, I don't think every Pokemon needs to be unique or good to justify their existence. Take Spidops for example. Easily considered the worst of Gen 9's new Pokemon stat-wise and it doesn't actually stand out from most older Pokemon outside of having a mid signature move and Sticky Web, which is mostly a unique novelty in this game specifically and will likely be gone once home transfers become a thing. Its not that bulky or that strong, and that's ok. It still has some good points and traits despite not being all that unique. Sure, it could have had way better stats and a cooler secondary typing, but I think that would have taken away from some of its charm. Pokemon like Spidops serve a very important purpose, which serving as a baseline to make other Pokemon around it feel more special. Because if everything is special and unique, nothing is.
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You can only have so much baseline Pokémon before it get stale even faster, but I do agree about leaving some single typed Pokémon as a baseline for others. It’s not like every Pokémon needs a signature move, ability, special held item or unique form to become someone’s favorite.

Obviously power creep is not a good solution either, and GF have handled it much more worse than before especially now that even the likes of Zacian can get their base stats changed, so there’s nothing wrong with making some Pokémon not meant for lasting until endgame. Spidops can be a decent Bug-type for early game, but not meant to last long after, for example.

It’s only when it’s a blatant repeat of what came before without important variation - Butterfree vs Ledian vs Beautifly vs Mothim vs Vespiquen, all early Bug / Flying within the first four generations - that it becomes a problem.
 
Samtendo09 said:
You can only have so much baseline Pokémon before it get stale even faster, but I do agree about leaving some single typed Pokémon as a baseline for others. It’s not like every Pokémon needs a signature move, ability, special held item or unique form to become someone’s favorite.

Obviously power creep is not a good solution either, and GF have handled it much more worse than before especially now that even the likes of Zacian can get their base stats changed, so there’s nothing wrong with making some Pokémon not meant for lasting until endgame. Spidops can be a decent Bug-type for early game, but not meant to last long after, for example.

It’s only when it’s a blatant repeat of what came before without important variation - Butterfree vs Ledian vs Beautifly vs Mothim vs Vespiquen, all early Bug / Flying within the first four generations - that it becomes a problem.
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Nah, Spidops actually wasn't too bad later in the game when I was using it. It kinda sucks early game because Silver Powder Bug Bite is weak af, but once you get Leech Life from TM / Lunge + Sucker Punch from Egg move Transfer w/ Lokix, it isn't too bad since its got solid self sustain w/ Leech Life + Leftovers. Spikes, T-Spikes, and Sticky Web can be situational useful in some of the tougher battles, but its quite noticable in the situations they are useful, like against Penny (where I pratically beat her with T-Spikes alone) and Arven (where I was able to set my hazards up against his Greedent and get crucial damage + speed control vs his team for my Tinkaton to go sicko mode). One quite memorable moment I remember was it walling Nemona's Pawmot, tanking a Double Shock and subsequent CC + Ice Punches to setup Sticky Web and heal itself w/ Leech Life to eventually win the 1v1 vs it. That Sticky Web would later be crucial against her Meowscarada, letting my weakened Flamigo outspeed it and KO it with Brave Bird. There are some battles where it is def useless, like against Larry and Hassel, but overall, it wasn't that bad.
 
Walking Wake is such a fantastic design. Like I mentioned in the annoyance thread, it's cool how while it didn't follow through on the "trio merged" concept it still took some concepts in the drawing into the design proper and all while making a version of Suicune that's recognizable but also very different.
It's what I wanted all the paradoxes to be like and looks fantastic.
 
Honestly I’m a little disappointed I got Violet, just because the Scarlet paradoxes have generally better designs. I mean I prefer Miraidon to Koraidon, and Iron Valiant is excellent, but in general there are far more options for designs from ancient times I feel.
(maybe I’m just being close minded and getting old too #everythingusedtobebetterinthegoodolddays)
 
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