OU Ludicolo

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#1

♪ Do the dance dance dance dance dance dance dance do the dance dance… ♪

Overview
########
Ludicolo is the only fully evolved Pokemon in the game with it's typing, and is also a force to be reckoned with under rain with its ability Swift Swim. This grants Ludicolo a niche in the OU metagame as a decent rain abuser.

[Pros]

-Excelent offensive and defensive typing
-Amazing speed stat after Swift Swim boost, and a monsterous Hydro Pump or Surf under rain
-Nifty 4x Water-type resistance

[Cons]

-Weak to common Flying- and Bug-type attacks, as well as Poison-type attacks which are gaining popularity due to the Fairy-type
-Middling stats when not under rain
-Faces lots of competition from Manaphy, Kabutops and Kingdra as a rain sweeper
-Is very reliant on rain to succeed in the tier


Rain Sweeper
########
name: Standard
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rain Dance
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

-Stab Hydro Pump is monsterous under rain
-Surf can also be used if you prefer reliability over power as it is still powerful, but a little more reliant on being under rain to hit hard
-Giga Drain provides a strong Grass-type STAB, hitting the Water-types that can sponge Hydro Pump, while also healing Ludicolo.
-Ice Beam hits Dragons which resist Ludicolo's dual STABs, as well as hitting Grass-types which do the same
-Rain Dance is obligatory as Ludicolo needs to be able to set up its own rain in case it runs out while Ludicolo is on the field, or just so that Ludicolo can be used on teams without Politoed.


Set Details
========

-The EVs maximise Ludicolo's power and speed
-Life Orb is prefered to boost Ludicolo's power as its attacks that aren't boosted by the rain aren't that powerful.
-Modest is prefered for the power boost it provides, and Ludicolo doesn't really need to run a Timid nature under the rain.
-Swift Swim is used to turn Ludicolo into a fast monster, swiftly KOing things that don't resist it's moves


Usage Tips
========

-Ludicolo has a limited amount of turns abuse Swift Swim, so play it with precision (in other words, land your predictions; you can't afford to use Hydro Pump against a Water-type resist!). However, it might be best to save it should you happen to refresh rain (via Rain Dance from another pokemon or Politoed)
-Make sure that rain is up as much as possible while Ludicolo is on the field
-Remove anything that can stop Ludicolo's sweep, such as Talonflame and Ferrothorn, before you attempt to sweep with it.


Team Options
========
-Politoed is a great partner for Ludicolo as it is capable of setting up Rain for Ludicolo as well as being the only pokemon with a weather ability that can afford to run its respective weather rock
-Kingdra mutually benefits Ludicolo as they share the same set of checks and counters offensively, giving you a backup if one or the other faints
-Rotom-Wash can deal with Talonflame without messing up Ludicolo's weather.
-Entry hazards aid Ludicolo's sweep further, making Ferrothorn and Deoxys-S good teammates for Ludicolo.
-Rapid Spin and Defog from pokemon such as Forretress and Mandibuzz can remove Sticky Web from your side of the field.
-Conkeldurr and Lucario can deal with Ferrothorn, although the latter must be wary of Thunder Wave
-Tentacruel absorbs Toxic Spikes and can heal using rain dish, as well as being able to use the aformentioned Rapid Spin to clear Sticky Web.


Other Options
########

-Ludicolo has a large movepool which gives it a number of options that it could run, although they are generally outclassed by the set above.
-Choice Specs can be used to ease prediction, however Ludicolo will lose the ability to set up its own rain, and the combination of Hydro Pump in the rain and Ice Beam will usually 2HKO Latias and always 2HKO Latios anyway, so it isn't recommended.
-Energy Ball is stronger than Giga Drain, successfully scoring a guaranteed OHKO on 212 HP Azumarill, Scald is helpful for its ability to burn physical attackers and Focus Blast is Ludicolo's best way to hit Ferrothorn and Abomasnow. This could warrent the use of either/both moves on the 'Rain Sweeper' set, however the former is left outclassed by Giga Drain due to the lack of healing provided wheras the latter leaves Ludicolo with a case of four-moveslot-syndrome as it requires all of the moves listed to make an impact in the OU metagame and Scald misses out on many KOs even when it does burn.
-Rain Dish could be utilised to make a SubSeed or Rain Tank set viable, however the death of endless rain makes such a strategy obsolete in this generation. Furthermore, in the case of the SubSeed set, rain stall is no longer an effective tactic due to the lack of the endless rain which was the only thing that made it viable last generation.


Checks & Counters
########
*Super Effective Damage*

-Talonflame can OHKO Ludicolo provided it invests enough EVs into attack (something that will usually be the case).
-Mega Venusaur doesn't care about anything that Ludicolo can throw at it due to Thick Fat and can retalliate with a STAB Sludge Bomb.

*Anti-Rain*

-Anything that can change the weather from rain, most notably Mega Charizard Y who can OHKO with a sun-boosted Fire Blast (and if Ludicolo predicts it and uses Rain Dance when Charizard Mega Evolves modest varients always OHKO with Air Slash whereas timid variants OHKO 68.8% of the time anyway) and Mega Tyranitar who can outpace in the sand and OHKO with Stone Edge, is a decent way to deal with them, although all of them but Mega Charizard Y must be wary of Rain Dance.

*Hard Hitters*

-Kyurem and Kyurem Black laugh at Ludicolo's attacks and deal heavy damage back with Draco Meteor and Outrage (respectively).
-Assault Vest Conkeldurr can tank Ludicolo's attacks (although it doesn't enjoy taking a STAB, rain boosted Hydro Pump) and can deal heavy damage back with Drain Punch or Knock Off.

*Walls*

-Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur wall Ludicolo to no end and can retalliate with Knock Off or Sludge Bomb, respectively.
-Special walls such as Chansey, Blissey and Assault Vest Goodra are left unscathed by Ludicolo's attacks

*Anti-Speed Tactics*

-Trick Room leaves Ludicolo in a bit of a predicament as it leaves Ludicolo moving last most of the time while it is active provided rain is up.
-Ludicolo hates Paralysis as it negates Swift Swim's effect, meaning that common users of Thunder Wave, such as Thundurus and Ferrothorn, cause huge problems for Ludicolo.
-Sticky Web negates Swift Swim to a lesser extent than Paralysis but still has a profound effect on Ludicolo's sweeping capabilities
-Galvantula can set up the detrimental Sticky Web and 2HKO Ludicolo with Bug Buzz while surviving whatever it throws at it with its trusty Focus Sash.

*Wearing-Down*

-Toxic and Will-O-Wisp wears this sweeper down quickly in conjunction to the Life Orb recoil.
-Entry hazards and phazers force Ludicolo to take damage a lot as it will cause Ludicolo to switch out and back in again later as well as stalling out its rain.
-Toxic Spikes gets the all important poison and bad poison statuses onto Ludicolo which contributes to Ludicolo's short life, which is only shortened by said status.


Overview
########

Ludicolo is the only fully evolved Pokemon with the great offensive and defensive typing of Water / Grass, which makes it a force to be reckoned with when it has rain to play in; add its nifty 4x resistance to Water-type moves into the mix, meaning that opposing Water-types can't abuse the rain that Ludicolo is in, and Ludicolo makes a decent rain abuser, with an excellent Speed stat after the Swift Swim boost. However, the weather nerf hit Ludicolo very hard, although it does enjoy there being no more Drizzle + Swift Swim clause to mess around with its sweeping capabilities. It is weak to Flying- and Bug-type attacks, as well as Poison-type attacks which are gaining popularity due to their effectiveness against Fairy-types. Furthermore, when Ludicolo is outside of the rain, its stats are no better than middling, meaning that it is completely reliant on said weather to succeed in OU. Ludicolo receives stiff competition from Kabutops and Kingdra as rain sweepers in OU, both of which have better overall stats, require less team support, and are less reliant on rain to succeed. However, Ludicolo is in no way a bad Pokemon, as it still has its unique typing and blazing Speed once the rain is up.

Rain Sweeper
########
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Focus Blast
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

Hydro Pump is a monstrous move when the rain is active, as it scores many OHKOs and 2HKOs on Pokemon which do not resist it, such as Bisharp, Thundurus and Conkeldurr, easing prediction. However, if you fear the accuracy of the move, you can run Surf, although the power drop is noticable. Giga Drain is the Grass-type STAB of choice for Ludicolo as it hits with decent power, covering the Water-types that like to come in and sponge Ludicolo's hits while also providing healing. Ice Beam is there to hit the Grass- and Dragon-types which resist both of Ludicolo's STAB moves. Finally, Focus Blast is an attractive option for hitting Ferrothorn and Abomasnow, the latter of which can clear your rain. However, Ludicolo should only be using this on a predicted switch-in as these two Pokemon are only 2HKOd by Focus Blast and can both maim Ludicolo back with Knock Off and Blizzard, respectively. If you prefer the ability to set up rain with Ludicolo itself predicting a forced switch, you can run Rain Dance. This also has merit for gaining momentum against opposing weather-changer switch-ins. However, this does leave Ludicolo completely walled by the aformentioned Ferrothorn and Abomasnow despite the momentum gained against the latter; as such, it isn't recommended.

Set Details
========

The given EVs are simple: maximize Ludicolo's Speed while providing as much punch as possible. Life Orb is used to aid Ludicolo in this respect as it can boost its power to terrifying levels in the case of Hydro Pump and usable levels for its other moves. A Modest nature has been chosen in order to boost Ludicolo's power further, as Ludicolo will mostly be attacking under rain as it is. Swift Swim is used so that Ludicolo actually has some sweeping capabilities, as its Speed stat is otherwise middling.

Usage Tips
========

Due to the weather nerf this generation, Ludicolo now has a limited number of turns in which to use rain, so play Ludicolo with precision (i.e., land all of your predictions: Ludicolo doesn't have enough time to using a resisted move). However, you will find that Ludicolo will still be using Hydro Pump most of the time anyway due to its raw power when under rain. Make sure that the rain is always up when you bring Ludicolo in; if it means sacrificing your Politoed to get the rain up, so be it. Refresh the rain as much as possible; also make sure that you remove anything that can prevent Ludicolo from successfully sweeping, such as Talonflame and Ferrothorn.

Team Options
========

Politoed, most notably the Damp Rock variant, is an amazing partner for Ludicolo for obvious reasons. Kingdra and Ludicolo share the same set of checks and counters offensively, giving you a backup plan when one of them faints and letting one soften walls for the other to break. Additionally, Ludicolo gets past bulky Water-types for Kingdra, making it easier for Kingdra to sweep when Ludicolo cannot. Rotom-W is capable of dealing with Talonflame effectively, making it a valuable asset on any team that features Ludicolo. Rapid Spin and Defog users, most notably Tentacruel for its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes and Latios due to its nicely buffed-up Surf and Thunder, are able to deal with Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes, both of which plague Ludicolo due to the fact that they limit its sweeping capabilities and wear it down quickly, respectively. Anything with Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to get rid of status on Ludicolo, such as Chansey, Blissey, or Vaporeon, is an excellent teammate. Finally, Thundurus provides a reliable stop to both Ferrothorn and Talonflame, most notably the former as Ludicolo is immune to Leech Seed and Thundurus is immune to Thunder Wave. Thundurus also has great synergy with Ludicolo with its nicely buffed Thunder.

Other Options
########

Ludicolo has a massive movepool to use. However, most of its other options are either outclassed by the options listed or another Pokemon that can do the job much better. First of all, Ludicolo can run Choice Specs for its ability to ease prediction a little, getting a guaranteed 2HKO on Latios with Hydro Pump. However, aside from the fact that Life Orb Ludicolo 2HKOes Latios with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam anyway, the main issue is that Ludicolo needs the ability to switch moves if it wants to do anything useful, as a Choice Specs set is outclassed by most specially based attackers. Energy Ball could be used over Giga Drain for the extra power output, scoring a guaranteed OHKO on 228 HP Azumarill, and Encore is an option for stopping Pokemon from setting up on Ludicolo once the rain has worn off; however, Ludicolo misses the healing that Giga Drain provides, while Encore has very limited use and is very situational. Scald can be used over Surf or Hydro Pump for the burn chance, but it lacks in power compared to said moves, missing out on many KOs even when it does burn. Finally, Ludicolo has access to Rain Dish, which could warrant a tank set with Assault Vest. However, the lack of permanent rain this generation diminishes the usefulness of such a set dramatically, so it is not recommended.

Checks and Counters
########

**Super Effective Attacks**: Talonflame doesn't care about Swift Swim due to Gale Wings and can OHKO Ludicolo with Brave Bird 100% of the time, although it can't switch in directly, forcing it to come in after a fainted teammate, slow U-turn, Volt Switch or Parting Shot, or on a predicted Giga Drain. Mega Venusaur doesn't care about Ice Beam due to Thick Fat and can hit Ludicolo hard back with a STAB Sludge Bomb.

**Weather Control**: Anything that can change the weather from rain is a good counter. Offensively, Mega Charizard Y can outpace Ludicolo in the sun and OHKO with a sun-boosted Fire Blast, and Mega Tyranitar can outpace in sandstorm and OHKO with Stone Edge 100% of the time. Defensively, Abomasnow and its Mega Evolution are by far the kings of the heap, only fearing Focus Blast. Ninetales can change Ludicolo's weather and outpace it to get off a Will-O-Wisp, with specially bulky varients rarely being 2HKOed.

**Tanks**: Kyurem ad Kyurem-B shrug off everything that Ludicolo can throw at them barring Focus Blast and deal heavy damage back with Draco Meteor or Outrage, respectively. Assault Vest Goodra can tank even Ice Beams and threaten back with a Dragon Pulse or the rare Sludge Wave or Sludge Bomb. Mega Venusaur fears nothing that Ludicolo can throw at it and can retaliate with a STAB Sludge Bomb.

**Walls**: Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur wall Ludicolo to no end and can retaliate back with Knock Off or Sludge Bomb, respectively. Furthermore, any special wall, such as Chansey, Blissey, or Assault Vest Goodra, can tank whatever Ludicolo throws at it and stall out Ludicolo's rain with ease.

**Anti-Speed Tactics**: Trick Room leaves Ludicolo in a predicament as the latter is forced to use the rain to have any sort of offensive presence, and Trick Room just flips this on its head. Ludicolo also hates paralysis, which cuts its Speed stat down to a quarter. This means that common users of Thunder Wave, such as Ferrothorn and Thundurus, are able to cause massive problems for Ludicolo. Finally, Sticky Web, while having less of an effect on Ludicolo than paralysis, is still detrimental for Ludicolo. This makes Galvantula and Smeargle, the most common users of the move, checks to Ludicolo, and to top it all off Galvantula is able to 2HKO Ludicolo with Bug Buzz.

**Residual Damage**: Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are able to wear Ludicolo down quickly in conjunction with the Life Orb recoil. Toxic Spikes can also get this powerful timer onto Ludicolo by inflicting poison. Finally, the combination of entry hazards and phazers increases the rate at which Ludicolo gets worn down further.
 
Last edited:

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Contributor Alumnus
#2
SubSeed
########
name: SubSeed
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Leech Seed
move 4: Protect / Scald / Toxic
ability: Rain Dish
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Bold
I saw you post in the other thread saying you had success with this. Honestly, I think this was an outright lie. At least, I hope for the sake of your opponents that it was, because this set is beyond bad. It's verging on useless.

Do you seriously think you can have a set where the only form of damage you have is leech seed? That leaves you entirely walled by every pokemon with substitute, every grass type, every pokemon with magic guard and sap sipper, and every pokemon that can heal more than 12% per turn. This thing is just asking to be set up on.

This set would, of course, be far better if scald (or I suppose maybe toxic) were made mandatory. That being said, the idea of setting up your own rain dance for rain dish recovery is just silly. For using rain dance, you get 5/16 recovery over 5 turns (or is it 1/4; I can't remember quite how it works. I'll be generous and say 5/16). For using, say, synthesis, you would get 50% recovery immediately. Yes, it boosts scald too, but it's not close to being worth the moveslot even on a ludicolo. And bearing that in mind, it's not at all worth using ludicolo for subseed. Frankly subseed has not been good on anything for ages, anyway.
 

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#3
I saw you post in the other thread saying you had success with this. Honestly, I think this was an outright lie. At least, I hope for the sake of your opponents that it was, because this set is beyond bad. It's verging on useless.

Do you seriously think you can have a set where the only form of damage you have is leech seed? That leaves you entirely walled by every pokemon with substitute, every grass type, every pokemon with magic guard and sap sipper, and every pokemon that can heal more than 12% per turn. This thing is just asking to be set up on.

This set would, of course, be far better if scald (or I suppose maybe toxic) were made mandatory. That being said, the idea of setting up your own rain dance for rain dish recovery is just silly. For using rain dance, you get 5/16 recovery over 5 turns (or is it 1/4; I can't remember quite how it works. I'll be generous and say 5/16). For using, say, synthesis, you would get 50% recovery immediately. Yes, it boosts scald too, but it's not close to being worth the moveslot even on a ludicolo. And bearing that in mind, it's not at all worth using ludicolo for subseed. Frankly subseed has not been good on anything for ages, anyway.
that's why I slashed scald into the set. I think I will just have Scald as the only move in that last moveslot for that reason. I have tested all the moves for the last slot a bit more sinse I posted this thread, and i agree that such a set would need to be able to attack, so yes maybe it would be a good idea to do a bit more testing of the actual moveset, but i do feel that it isn't terrible based around the testing I have done myself (I wasn't lying when I said I had tested the set and found that it worked)
 

trc

Stop Playing Wit The Game Y U Do Me This Way
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
#4
I honestly don't even believe SubSeed should have a set. It is a terrible strategy in OU and the set you have listed will stall out the rain, losing the main reason to use Ludicolo in the first place. I would definitely remove the set.
 

CyclicCompound

is a bicycle person thing
is a Contributor Alumnus
#5
Hi, not QC but I'll offer up some suggestions to improve this analysis.

First of all, Ludicolo faces a lot of competition for both of its sets. Kingdra and Kabutops are more commonly used as Swift Swim sweepers, and SubSeed faces a lot of competition from Pokemon such as Poison Heal Breloom and Chesnaught, both of which aren't weather-reliant and have access to moves like Spore and Spiky Shield, respectively (I'm not really sure how viable subseed is, but if it is, it has a lot of competition). I would make sure to highlight in the analysis (in the overview) what specifically differentiates Ludicolo from these other Pokemon. Another source of competition is Manaphy—Manaphy has stronger attacks, better defenses, and a more reliable method of boosting its attacks. Although you already mention Ludicolo's speed under rain, which is the main reason to use it over Manaphy, I'd definitely put Manaphy there as a direct competitor.
Remove anything that can stop Ludicolo's sweep, such as Talonflame and Ferrothorn, before you attempt to sweep with it.
You mention this point, but you don't go into how you remove Ferrothorn in the Team Options (other than Volcarona in rain, which is not optimal nor efficient).
Volcarona that lack Giga Drain enjoy the power that Ludicolo brings to the table, as well as hitting opposing Ludicolo hard with its Hurricane and Bug Buzz, as well as dealing with Ferrothorn to an extent with its Fire-type moves
QC may disagree with me on this, but I strongly question the use of Volcarona with Hurricane on a rain team. Considering the lack of permanent rain and that Volcarona usually needs to set up before it starts attacking, I don't see how this is particularly efficient.
Florges has Flower Veil which enables Ludicolo to ignore Sticky Web and proceed to sweep the opponents team
This only works in Double Battles.
Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Heat and Rock-types without Sand Stream can deal with Talonflame without messing up Ludicolo's weather.
While Rotom-W is a good teammate, Rotom-H does not appreciate its most powerful STAB move becoming significantly weaker in rain. Also, the only really viable Rock-type to use in this scenario would be Rhyperior, so I'd mention it by name.
Toxic can also be used to rack up yet more damage on the opponent than is already being caused each turn by the Leech Seed. This works well in conjunction with a pokemon with Shadow Tag or Arena Trap to stall out pokemon very quickly, although Arena Trap users must be wary of attacks as the main user of the ability (Dugtrio) is very frail.
Neither Dugtrio nor other Shadow Tag/Arena Trap users should be used for this purpose. They remove checks and counters to other Pokemon, but to use them to attempt stall opponents out is usually a waste of a teamslot, so I'd remove this point.
This set works well on stall teams for its amazing stalling abilities.
This is kind of iffy. Stall teams arguably need Mega Venusaur to succeed, in which case Rain isn't optimal since it takes away the healing power of Synthesis. With that said, rain stall is also pretty dead this generation. At any rate, I would use the term defensive over stall. Most stall teams don't want something as frail as Ludicolo on their team.
Rotom Wash and Heat can deal with Talonflame well without disrupting the rain that Ludicolo needs to function.
Again, Rotom-H hates rain. I'd remove this.
A swords dance set with Waterfall, Seed Bomb and Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch / Rain Dance could be used, but, as you can see by the number of slashes in the fourth moveslot, Ludicolo has a rather severe case of four-moveslot-syndrome and, as such, it isn't recomended.
It's not so much the 4MSS that gets in the way of using this set, it's more the fact that it requires two turns of setup due to Ludicolo's pathetic unboosted Attack stat.

Now, in my opinion, your Checks and Counters section should be seriously expanded (and by virtue of that, your Team Options to find things to get rid of Ludicolo's checks and counters). Special walls such as Chansey can't be broken through by the Swift Swim set. Mega Tyranitar can switch in, change the weather, outspeed, and OHKO the Swift Swim set with Stone Edge after one round of Life Orb recoil or Stealth Rock. Kyurem-B laughs at everything Ludicolo throws at it except the rare Focus Blast. AV Conkeldurr can take a hit and hit back extremely hard with Drain Punch. Ludicolo doesn't have the greatest defensive stats, and this is especially true when uninvested on the Swift Swim set. With the fact that it needs a turn to set up and that it holds Life Orb, Ludicolo has a hard time against offensive teams with good momentum control that can easily wear it down and take it out before it has much of a chance to do anything. Anything with Substitute that doesn't mind Scald (Mega Gyarados, Kyurem-B, etc.) or that doesn't mind Leech Seed in general (offensive Pokemon with recovery moves like Mega Charizard X, Magic Guard users like Clefable) can set up on Ludicolo all day.

..And with all of that said, I seriously doubt the viability of SubSeed Ludicolo. Echoing what jc104 said above me, SubSeed is in itself a rather dubious strategy, and Ludicolo is not really a prime user of it, ESPECIALLY when it has to set up its own rain to have a niche. Frankly, the time it takes to set up the strategy and get it working is not worth using a Pokemon with a highly limited niche that comes bundled with pathetic defensive stats and a limited way of helping its team.

Again, I'm not QC, but thank you for considering my suggestions.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#6
Subseed is 100% useless. All the opponent needs is a decent u-turn user and you will never cause any damage. This might not be a huge problem if every team didnt carry one of these. Ludicolo is probably one of the worst sub seeders, I mean, it even takes neutral damage from volt switch and you didnt even slash a move to hit grass types in the least.
 
#7
Remember to list in your OO that Energy Ball actually has a chance to score KO's on Pokemon like Azumarill.

Also, I was sad to see Specs not listed at least in the OO. As I've said in the previous thread, it allows you to spam moves such as Hydro Pump without having to worry about prediction. It's especially helpful against offensive teams, as it can function as a VERY powerful revenge killer that doesn't loose HP every turn. It functions very similar to how Stoutland did, actually.
 

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#8
Remember to list in your OO that Energy Ball actually has a chance to score KO's on Pokemon like Azumarill.

Also, I was sad to see Specs not listed at least in the OO. As I've said in the previous thread, it allows you to spam moves such as Hydro Pump without having to worry about prediction. It's especially helpful against offensive teams, as it can function as a VERY powerful revenge killer that doesn't loose HP every turn. It functions very similar to how Stoutland did, actually.
ah. thanks for reminding me about Specs. Forgot about them. I meant to add them to OO and forgot, and I will add it when I get the time to edit it when I get home from school
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#11
I find it strange that you would indicate Rain Dish in the overview, and yet, it's nowhere to be found in the analysis. Make a note of it in OO, and mention that the rain nerf has taken a severe toll on the set's viability.

That said, it looks good.

APPROVED 1/3
 
Last edited:
#12
I think Focus Blast should be slashed before Rain Dance in the main set, as it can 2HKO Ferrothorn, helps break down Chansey and Blissey to some extent, and hits Tyranitar very hard in the sand. Other pokemon such as Azumarill, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, and other bulky waters are all hit hard by Ludicolo's Grass STAB. All of the pokemon above are troubling to many other common members of rain teams and Ludicolo excels at getting rid of them, that should be emphasized somewhere in the analysis.

Also, you say that anything that can change the weather is a good check/counter to Ludicolo, but why "most notably Abomasnow?" Tyranitar and Mega Charizard Y are way more notable weather changers than Abomasnow.
 
Last edited:

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#13
I think Focus Blast should be slashed before Rain Dance in the main set, as it can 2HKO Ferrothorn, helps break down Chansey and Blissey to some extent, and hits Tyranitar very hard in the sand. Other pokemon such as Azumarill, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, and other bulky waters are all hit hard by Ludicolo's Grass STAB. All of the pokemon above are troubling to many other common members of rain teams and Ludicolo excels at getting rid of them, that should be emphasized somewhere in the analysis.

Also, you say that anything that can change the weather is a good check/counter to Ludicolo, but why "most notably Abomasnow?" Tyranitar and Mega Charizard Y are way more notable weather changers than Abomasnow.
I explained why Focus Blast is inferior in the last thread, and i have mentioned it in OO for that reason.

I find it strange that you would indicate Rain Dish in the overview, and yet, it's nowhere to be found in the analysis. Make a note of it in OO, and mention that rain nerf has taken a severe toll on the set's viability.

That said, it looks good.

APPROVED 1/3
thanks for the QC. I will make changes accordingly when i get some time (I am doing this from school).
 

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#14
OK. I have made changes to the thread.

I currently have a rain tank set next to SubSeed in OO, however I feel that it will have a little more success as just a straight out tank and could deserve a main set. I will be testing it and would also like to have you all test it so that we can have a mini-vote on weather it deserves a main set. The set will look as follows:

Tank
########
name: Tank
move 1: Scald
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rain Dance / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Rain Dish
item: Leftovers / Assault Vest
evs: 24 HP / 32 Def / 252 SpA / 200 SpD
nature: Modest

The EVs maximise the damage that Ludicolo will be dealing - further boosted by the modest nature - , and they allow Ludicolo to survive Mega Charizard Y's sun-boosted Fire Blast. The rest are invested into defense to increase Ludicolo's bulk further. The moves are self explanitory: Scald is a good water-type move on a tank for its reliable base power and high burn rate, Giga Drain provides recovery, Ice Beam hits Dragons which resist the Water-/Grass-type coverage, and the last moveslot is a filler that depends on your item: Rain Dance provides healing through Rain Dish, wheras Focus Blast and Hidden Power Fire hit Steel-types such as Ferrothorn that wall Ludicolo otherwise. Assault Vest allows Ludicolo to run a more physically-defensive EV spread to take hits (still clarifying on a decent physically-defensive spread and the listed EVs may need a better HP:Defense ratio than what they currently have (I am still fairly new to specialised EVs, but I am getting better at them)
 
#15
  • Immune to Leech Seed
Not only is this innate to every Grass-type, it doesn't really matter because the most common Leech Seed users beat Ludicolo! The overview is good, but I hope the final version has less fluff.

  • Scald can burn physical attackers, as well as having solid power. However, Scald misses out on KOs when it fails to burn.
It misses out on KOs period; with or without the burn. You need to change this up

  • Play this set very offensively, but dont be afraid to withdraw Ludicolo if you need to
You can elaborate on this. "Don't be afraid to withdraw Ludicolo" doesn't tell the reader anything they already don't know. Try a different angle;

"Ludicolo has a limited amount of turns abuse Swift Swim, so play it with precision (in other words, land your predictions. You can't afford to use Hydro Pump against a Water-type resist!). However, it might be best to save it should you happen to refresh rain (via Rain Dance from another Pokemon or Politoed)

  • Kingdra benefits from the Grass-type coverage provided by Ludicolo for that extra bit of power provided by a super effective Giga Drain
How? Kingdra can already punch through Water-types with its Water moves. Kingdra and Ludicolo mutually benefit each other because they have the same sets of checks and counters.

  • Volcarona that lack Giga Drain enjoy the power that Ludicolo brings to the table, as well as hitting opposing Ludicolo hard with its Hurricane and Bug Buzz, as well as dealing with Ferrothorn to an extent with its Fire-type moves
Volcarona is an extremely niche partner. Take this out.

  • Rotom-Wash and Rhyperior can deal with Talonflame without messing up Ludicolo's weather.
Rhyperior is a horrible, horrible choice for a rain team though. Remove it.

Talonflame enjoys the coverage against Rotom-Wash, Rotom Heat and Tyranitar that Ludicolo provides
It doesn't enjoy the rain however. Remove it.

  • Anything that can remove Ferrothorn, such as Talonflame, Conkeldurr and Charizard is a valuable asset to your team
  • Heal Bell and Aromatherapy heal Ludicolo of paralysis, poison and burns, making Umbreon and Blissey good teammates.
  • Rapid-Spinners and Defoggers such as Hitmontop, Forretress, Starmie, Tentacruel, Skarmory and Mandibuzz can clear hazards from the feild lowering the chance of Ludicolo being worn down quickly.
1) This should be mentioned in the team options section.
2) Its worth noting that Rain teams simply do not have the time to set up/refresh Rain Dance and rely on Heal Bell support.
3. See #2. Ludicolo is not specifically vulnerable to hazards, and the fact that it gets worn down quickly is irrelevant. After all, it only gets a few turns to attack.

You can remove all of this.

Your Checks & Counters section needs a complete overhaul. Why on earth is Scizor mentioned?? It takes significant damage from rain boosted Hydro Pump, and Ludicolo resists Bullet Punch. You can probably remove Galvantula from the super effective damage section, and simply mention it in the Speed section.

  • Ludicolo has a hard time against offensive teams as it requires a turn to set up and is pretty much forced to hold a Life Orb.
  • Hyper Offense will often deal heavy damage to Ludicolo and not allow it to have any real impact on the match.
1)Ludicolo has a leg up on offensive teams when the rain is up, and its completely useless when it isn't.
2) Pointless fluff. Remove it.

  • Ludicolo hates Paralysis as it negates Swift Swim's effect.
Examples! Thundurus-I, Ferrothorn are prime candidates.

There's a complete lack of special walls. Chansey / Blissey, Assault Vest Goodra... all viable stops to Ludicolo.

*Weather Changing*
  • Anything that can clear Ludicolo's rain, most notably Mega Charizard Y to OHKO with a sun-boosted Fire Blast (and if Ludicolo predicts it and uses Rain Dance when Charizard Mega Evolves modest varients always OHKO with Air Slash whereas timid variants OHKO 68.8% of the time anyway), is a decent way to deal with them, although all of them but Mega Charizard Y must be wary of Rain Dance.
  • Mega Tyranitar can come in on the turn Ludicolo uses Rain Dance, still be able to change Ludicolo's weather while attacking to give your team momentum, outpace Ludicolo in the sand and OHKO with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock or one round of Life Orb recoil. It must, however, be wary of when Stone Edge misses as this allows Ludicolo to set up rain, outpace mega Tyranitar and have an 87.5% chance to OHKO it.
Add Abomasnow and the other Weather changes. The simple fact that they change the weather (even if they're weak to Ludicolo's STAB) makes it worth mentioning.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#16
In addition to what PK said:

Really doesn't enjoy having its item knocked off
Meaningless; what does?

Specially defensive Jellicent can wall Ludicolo, although Giga Drain damage will start racking up.
Anything that gets nailed by a Super Effective STAB coupled with Life Orb should, in no way, ever be mentioned as a counter.

Knock Off users can deal with Ludicolo as it finds itself lacking in power a little without Life Orb.
You have to be more specific on this one. Ludicolo destroys most things that have Knock Off with Rain-boosted Hydro Pump, outside of Ferrothorn and Venusaur, which wall Ludicolo in any circumstance.

Hone Claws botches up Hydro Pump's accuracy, but does little else aside from give Ludicolo the aformentioned four-moveslot-syndrome. However, a mixed set with Hone Claws, Hydro Pump, Giga Drain and Rain Dance could be viable. This, however, is generally outclassed by the standard set.
This doesn't even deserve an OO mention. Hone Claws is almost strictly outclassed by Swords Dance and Rain Dance as set up options.
-----

Additionally, Rain Dish Ludicolo should not have a mention outside of OO, as its primary niche as a Sub-Protect staller was completely dismantled by the rain nerf. It's lackluster as a bulky water due to its mediocre stats, and middling defensive typing that gives it a weakness to Flying and neutrality to Fire.
 
Last edited:

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#17
ok. I've made the changes.

After testing and Super Mario Bro's input, I have decided not to move the tank set out of OO.
 
#19
Ludicolo is the only fully evolved Pokemon in the game with it's typing, and is also a force to be reckoned with under rain with its abilities Swift Swim and Rain Dish. This grants Ludicolo a niche in the OU metagame as the premier rain abuser.
Rain Dish Ludicolo should never be used. Remove that. Ludicolo is also nowhere near the premier rain abuser, so I would remove that too and simply state that it has a niche as a decent rain abuser in OU.

  • Decent defensive capabilities
Not really, defensive Ludicolo is bad and outclassed. I would remove.

  • Most of its types' weaknesses covered by each other
What does this mean?

  • Wide movepool
Not really, it only uses one specific moveset with no move slashes, so I would remove this.

  • Really doesn't enjoy having its item knocked off
  • Has a rather severe case of four-moveslot-syndrome
Remove both of these. The first point is a given, and the second isn't even true. It only needs its 3 offensive moves to do work.

  • Stab Hydro Pump is monsterous under rain, as well as being a force to be reckoned with outside of it
It's not a force to be reckoned with outside of it, that's an exaggeration. Just say it hits hard outside of rain.

  • Surf can also be used if you prefer reliability over power as it is still powerful, but a little more reliant on being under rain to work effectively
I would replace "work effectively" with "hit hard."

  • Giga Drain provides a strong Grass-type STAB while also healing Ludicolo.
I'd mention it hits Water-types that like to sponge Hydro Pumps.

  • Swift Swim is used to turn Ludicolo into a fast monster, swiftly KOing things that don't resist it's moves (or 4x resist them in the case of Hydro Pump, Surf and Scald)
Remove the 4x resist thing, it's redundant.

  • A swords dance set with Waterfall, Seed Bomb and Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch / Rain Dance could be used. However Ludicolo's unboosted attack stat is pitiful and, as you can see by the number of slashes in the fourth moveslot, Ludicolo has a rather severe case of four-moveslot-syndrome and, as such, it isn't recomended.
SD Ludicolo is probably the most revolting set one can use on it. That's totally outclassed by Kabutops in all aspects, so remove this please. This is a joke.

  • Cloud Nine negates the rain while the user is on the field, making the rare Cloud Nine Lickilicky and Altaria helpful in this instance.
No one uses these in OU... remove.

Do these and consider this as:



QC 2/3
 
#20
All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. gamer boy, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
 

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#21
All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. gamer boy, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
I have updated the pirate pad.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#23
gamer boy

Overview
########
Ludicolo is the only fully-evolved pokemon in the game that has its type combination which is above-average both offensively and defensively, and is a force to be reckoned with when it has rain to play in. This turns Ludicolo into a decent rain abuser, with an excellent speed stat after the Swift Swim boost. Add his nifty 4x resistance to water into the mix, meaning that opposing Water-types can't abuse the rain also provided that Ludicolo is in. However, it isn't all good news for Ludicolo, and the transition to generation six wasn't kind to it at all and the weather nerf hit Ludicolo very hard, although it does enjoy there being no more DrizleSwim clause to mess around with its sweeping capabilitites. It is weak to common Flying- and Bug-type attacks, as well as the Poison-type which is gaining popularity due to the introduction of the Fairy-type. Furthermore, when it is outside of the rain its stats are no better than middling, meaning that it is completely reliant on said weather to succeed in the OU tier. Because of this, Ludicolo recieves stiff competition from Manaphy, Kabutops and Kingdra as rain sweepers in the OU tier, all of which have better overall stats, require less team-support and are less reliant on rain to succeed. However, once you look past these drawbacks, you see that Ludicolo is in no way a bad pokemon, as it is still a force to be reckoned with its excelent, unique typing and blazing speed once the rain is up.
This first sentence is questionable.. How do you figure Ludicolo's typing is the only possible typing that is both good offensively and defensively? For example I would argue Thundurus and Bisharp both also fall into this category.. Find a way to reword this. Again, this but about bug attacks is questionable. The only common bug attack is unSTAB sometimes even uninvested U-turns now that Genesect is gone. Manaphy is not much of a rain sweeper, it doesnt benefit from the rain as much as other rain abusers such as the ones you've listed. What you've actually said besides these things is GOOD, but the prose needs a little work. GO over it once or twice more, and the GP guys will help you out a bit too.

Rain Sweeper
########
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Focus Blast
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

Hydro Pump is a monsterous move when the rain is active, gaining many OHKOs and 2HKOs on pokemon which do not resist it. However, if you are on the side of accuracy in that endless war between power and accuracy, you can run Surf, although you must remember that it will miss out on many KOs and that it is more reliant on rain than Hydro Pump to hit hard. Giga Drain is the Grass-type STAB of choice for Ludicolo as it hits with decent power, covering the Water-types that like to come in and sponge Ludicolo's hits, while also providing healing for Ludicolo. Ice Beam is there to hit the Grass- and Dragon-types which resist both of Ludicolo's STAB moves, although when attacking Dragonite it may be a good idea to break its multiscale first to minimise the chance of activating its Weakness Policy. Finally, Rain Dance is there so that Ludicolo can activate rain itself if it so requires, although it is often best to switch out so that something else can set it up for Ludicolo.
Firstly, the names of the set should be the same for both. Secondly, I'm changing Rain Dance to Focus Blast. YOu say yourself its better to have teammates (politoed) take care of the rain, and this is something I completely agree with. Its not like any weather changing poke switches into Ludicolo at all. Focus Blast helps deal with Ferrothorn who completely walls Ludicolo otherwise and is a persistent annoyance to rain in general. Thirdly, the bit about Dragonite doesnt need to be said, Dragonite with scales intact checks basically anything. It's more of a usage tip if anything.

Set Details
========

The given EVs are simple: maximise Ludicolo's speed while providing as much punch as possible. Life Orb is used to aid Ludicolo in this respect as it can boost its power to monstrous levels in the case of Hydro Pump and to boost them to usable levels for its other moves. A modest nature has been chosen in order to boost Ludicolo's power further as well as due to the fact that Ludicolo will mostly be attacking under rain as it is, making a timid nature redundant. Swift Swim is used so that Ludicolo actually has some sweeping capabilities, as its speed stat is otherwise middling.
This isn't exactly correct usage of the word "redundant". Redundant implies "the same thing twice such that the second is superfluous". A positive natured swift swim user can be appropriate, but in this case it doesnt need the speed.

Team Options
========

Politoed, most notably the Damp Rock variant, is an amazing partner for Ludicolo for obvious reasons, as simply switching it in successfully is all the time it needs to get the rain up due to Drizzle. Kingdra mutually benefits Luudicolo as they share the same set of checks and counters offensively, giving you a backup plan when one of them faints. Rotom-Wash is capable of dealing with Talonflame effectively without messing up Ludicolo's rain, making it a valuable asset on any team that features it. Rapid Spin users, most notably Tentacruel due to Rain Dish and its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes upon switch-in, are able to deal with Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes, both of which plague Ludicolo due to the fact that they limit Ludicolo's sweeping capabilities and wear it down quickly, respectively. On the subject of Toxic Spikes, anything with Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to get rid of paralysis, burn or poison from Ludicolo is an excelent teammate as Ludicolo hates all three of these statuses. Finally, Conkeldurr and Lucario can deal with Ferrothorn effectively, although the former must be wary of Rocky Helmet variants and the latter must be wary of Thunder Wave and, depending on weather it is physically or specially based, the aformentioned Rocky Helmet variants.
I would mention that now that Ludicolo is going to carry Focus Blast it can break past Ferrothorn for Kingdra. AS for Talonflame Kabutops is a very good rain team member that deals with Talonflame quite well, add it. Tentacruel as a spinner is questionable imo. Rain Stall tactics such as protect + rain dish are pretty bad now with the rain that doesnt last long and Tentacruel has a hard time against AEgislash as well its really redundant defensively with Politoed and Ludicolo who are always going to be together. Rapid Spin Kabutops and Defog Latios are imho the very best in Rain hazard removal as Kabutops is an amazing rain abuser in its own right, and Latios really adds to rain teams defensively by being able to check/counter Keldeo, Azumarill, Thundurus, and abuse the rain pretty well with its Juiced up Thunder and Surf. As for Heal Bell / Aromatherapy users list some that may be viable with Ludi. Finally the Ferrothorn bit ought be changed a bit as now Ludi should be sporting Focus Blast as well neither Conk nor Lucario are great answers to Ferro, and not exactly great rain team members. Thundurus is suprisingly good at dealing with Ferrothorn with Ludicolo for a few reasons. Firstly, Ludi is immune to seeds so it is unlikely that Ferrothorn would try to leech seed, most likely try and power whip or paralyze it which Thundurus easily shrugs off. From there it can taunt Ferrothorn, or boost up with Nasty Plot and blast it with Focus Blast. Its a pretty decent rain abuser with Thunder and all too. If anyhting I would mention Thundy, it also deals with Talonflame pretty decently.

Other Options
########

Ludicolo has a massive movepool to abuse. However, most of Ludicolo's other options are either outclassed by the options listed or another pokemon who can do the job much better. First of all, Ludicolo can run Choice Specs for its ability to ease prediction a little, getting a guaranteed 2HKO on Latios with Hydro Pump. However, aside from the fact that the combination of Life Orb Hydro Pump in the rain and Life Orb Ice Beam 2HKO Latios anyway, the main issue that it faces when it uses this is the fact that Ludicolo needs the ability to switch moves if it wants to do anything useful in the OU tier, as a Choice Specs set is outclassed by all of the pokemon listed in the overveiw excluding Kabutops, who is physically-based anyway. Energy Ball could be used over Giga Drain for the extra power output and Focus Blast gives Ludicolo a way to deal with Ferrothorn; however Ludicolo misses the healing that Giga Drain provides while Focus Blast gives Ludicolo a case of four-moveslot syndrome. On the subject of alternative moves, Scald can be used over Surf or Hydro Pump for the burn chance. However, you will often find that it lacks in power compared to said moves, missing out on many KOs even when it does burn. Finally, Ludicolo has access to Rain Dish which could warrent a tank set with Assault Vest. However, the lack of permanent rain this generation diminishes the usefulness of such a set dramatically, so it is not recommended.
Remove Focus Blast from here and add Encore into here. Encore is pretty neat but only situationally useful and drops useful coverage.

Checks and Counters
########

**Super Effective Damage**:Talonflame doesn't care about Swift Swim due to Gale Wings and can OHKO Ludicolo with Brave Bird 100% of the time, although it can't switch in against you, forcing it to come in after Ludicolo's attack. Also, Mega Venusaur doesn't care about Ice Beam due to Thick Fat and can hit Ludicolo hard back with a STAB Sludge Bomb.

**Anti-Rain**:Anything that can change the weather from rain, most notably Mega Charizard Y who can OHKO with a sun-boosted Fire Blast - and if the mega evolution is predicted and Ludicolo uses Rain Dance modest variants can always OHKO with Air Slash whereas Timid variants will still OHKO 68.8% of the time - and Mega Tyranitar who can outpace in sandstorm and OHKO with Stone Edge 100% of the time while getting momentum when it predicts Rain Dance by mega evolving, is an effective way of dealing with Ludicolo, although Ninetales and non-mega Tyranitar varients must be wary of Rain Dance.

**Hard Hitters**:Kyurem ad Kyurem Black shrug off everything that Ludicolo can throw at them with ease and deal heavy damage back with Draco Meteor or Outrage, respectively, and Assault Vest Conkeldurr can tank Ludicolo's attacks although, as a rain-boosted Hydro Pump will hurt a lot, it must get a free switch-in against Ludicolo or predict an Ice Beam or Giga Drain correctly and it can threaten Ludicolo back with a powerful Drain Punch or Knock Off.

**Walls**:Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur wall Ludicolo to no ent and can retalliate back with Knock Off or Sludge Bomb, respectively. Furthermore, any special wall, such as Chansey, Blissey or Assault Vest Goodra, can tank whatever Ludicolo throws at it and stall out Ludicolo's rain with ease.

**Anti-Speed Tactics**:Trick Room leaves Ludicolo in a predicament as Ludicolo is forced to use the rain to have any sort of offensive presence, and Trick Room just flips this on its head. Ludicolo also hates Paralysis as it completely negates the effects of Swift Swim. This means that common users of the move, such as Ferrothorn and Thundurus, are able to cause massive problems for Ludicolo. Finally Sticky Web, while having less of an effect on Ludicolo than paralysis, is still detremental for Ludicolo. This makes Galvantula - the most common user of the move - check to Ludicolo, as well as being able to 2HKO Ludicolo with Bug Buzz while taking whatever Ludicolo throws at it with its trusty Focus Sash.

**Wearing-Down**:Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are able to wear Ludicolo down quickly in conjunction with the Life Orb recoil. While I'm still talking about Toxic, Toxic Spikes is also able to get this powerful timer onto Ludicolo by inflicting the poison or bad poison statuses onto Ludicolo. Finally, the combination of entry hazards and phazers increase the speed at which Ludicolo gets worn down further.
This is fine but I wouldnt really mention Galvantula as a check at all, Focus Sashes are far from "trusty", a lot of shit can check other shit with a Focus Sash in tact, its not worth mentioning.

make these changes and
QC 3/3
 

Martin

Viability is a social construct
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
#24
gamer boy



This first sentence is questionable.. How do you figure Ludicolo's typing is the only possible typing that is both good offensively and defensively? For example I would argue Thundurus and Bisharp both also fall into this category.. Find a way to reword this. Again, this but about bug attacks is questionable. The only common bug attack is unSTAB sometimes even uninvested U-turns now that Genesect is gone. Manaphy is not much of a rain sweeper, it doesnt benefit from the rain as much as other rain abusers such as the ones you've listed. What you've actually said besides these things is GOOD, but the prose needs a little work. GO over it once or twice more, and the GP guys will help you out a bit too.



Firstly, the names of the set should be the same for both. Secondly, I'm changing Rain Dance to Focus Blast. YOu say yourself its better to have teammates (politoed) take care of the rain, and this is something I completely agree with. Its not like any weather changing poke switches into Ludicolo at all. Focus Blast helps deal with Ferrothorn who completely walls Ludicolo otherwise and is a persistent annoyance to rain in general. Thirdly, the bit about Dragonite doesnt need to be said, Dragonite with scales intact checks basically anything. It's more of a usage tip if anything.



This isn't exactly correct usage of the word "redundant". Redundant implies "the same thing twice such that the second is superfluous". A positive natured swift swim user can be appropriate, but in this case it doesnt need the speed.



I would mention that now that Ludicolo is going to carry Focus Blast it can break past Ferrothorn for Kingdra. AS for Talonflame Kabutops is a very good rain team member that deals with Talonflame quite well, add it. Tentacruel as a spinner is questionable imo. Rain Stall tactics such as protect + rain dish are pretty bad now with the rain that doesnt last long and Tentacruel has a hard time against AEgislash as well its really redundant defensively with Politoed and Ludicolo who are always going to be together. Rapid Spin Kabutops and Defog Latios are imho the very best in Rain hazard removal as Kabutops is an amazing rain abuser in its own right, and Latios really adds to rain teams defensively by being able to check/counter Keldeo, Azumarill, Thundurus, and abuse the rain pretty well with its Juiced up Thunder and Surf. As for Heal Bell / Aromatherapy users list some that may be viable with Ludi. Finally the Ferrothorn bit ought be changed a bit as now Ludi should be sporting Focus Blast as well neither Conk nor Lucario are great answers to Ferro, and not exactly great rain team members. Thundurus is suprisingly good at dealing with Ferrothorn with Ludicolo for a few reasons. Firstly, Ludi is immune to seeds so it is unlikely that Ferrothorn would try to leech seed, most likely try and power whip or paralyze it which Thundurus easily shrugs off. From there it can taunt Ferrothorn, or boost up with Nasty Plot and blast it with Focus Blast. Its a pretty decent rain abuser with Thunder and all too. If anyhting I would mention Thundy, it also deals with Talonflame pretty decently.



Remove Focus Blast from here and add Encore into here. Encore is pretty neat but only situationally useful and drops useful coverage.



This is fine but I wouldnt really mention Galvantula as a check at all, Focus Sashes are far from "trusty", a lot of shit can check other shit with a Focus Sash in tact, its not worth mentioning.

make these changes and
QC 3/3
I understand your point about Focus Blast, and I am slashing it in with Rain Dance for now. However, the issue I have with this is that it faces the same issues as HP Fire Amoonguss in OU: you have teammates to deal with threats, and I am not sure Focus MissBlast has any use outside of Ferrothorn and Abomasnow as I'm pretty sure everything else is hit harder by Ludicolo's other moves.

Also, about the bug moves. Scizor will always carry either U-Turn or Bug Bite, and it was the 7th most common 'mon after February's usage stats for OU (march stats hadn't been released at time of posting), so I will leave that in for now unless you find a slightly more sturdy justification

I have modified the bit about Galvantula a bit as it is still a check for its ability to set up sticky web, but I have removed the bit about Focus Sash. I have also added Smeargle to the list as it can also set up Sticky Web to cripple Ludicolo.

I will implement the rest your changes later when I have a little time.

Edit: Changes made
 
Last edited:

tehy

Banned deucer.
#25
amcheck

Bug and Flying are NOT common;they've got 1-2 common pokemon that use them. Other than that they're fairly barren overall. Contrast that with, say, electric, with many pokemon using it as their STAB and others using it as a coverage move. Or...say, ground. And while poison-type attacks have gained in popularity, it's by a pretty small amount. The only reason i'd even classify it as gained in popularity is that you now have at least a sliver of a reason to use them on some pokemon.

Overview
########

Ludicolo is the only fully-evolved pPokemon win the game that has its type combination. This is a great combination both offensively and defensevelyive typing of Water/Grass, which makinges Ludicolo a force to be reckoned with when it has rain to play in. This turns Ludicolo into; a decent rain abuser, with an excellent speed stat after the Swift Swim boost. Add his nifty 4x resistance to water into the mix, meaning that opposing Water-types can't abuse the rain also provided that Ludicolo is in. However, it isn't all good news forand Ludicolo, and the t makes a decent rain abuser, wition to gh an excelleneration six wasn't kind to it at all andpeed stat after the Swift Swim boost. However, the weather nerf hit Ludicolo very hard, although it does enjoy there being no more DrizzleSwim clause to mess around with its sweeping capabilitites. It is weak to common Flying-, and Bug-type attacks, as well as the Poison-type attacks, which isare gaining popularity due to the introduction of the Fairy-type. Furthermore, when it is outside of the rain its stats are no better than middling, meaning that it is completely reliant on said weather to succeed in the OU tier. Because of this, Ludicolo recieives stiff competition from Kabutops and Kingdra as rain sweepers in the OU tier, allboth of which have better overall stats, require less team-support, and are less reliant on rain to succeed. However, once you look past these drawbacks, you see that Ludicolo is in no way a bad pPokemon, as it is still a force to be reckoned with its excellent, unique typing and blazing speed once the rain is up.

Rain Sweeper
########
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rain Dance / Focus Blast
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

Hydro Pump is a monsterous move when the rain is active, gainscoring many OHKOs and 2HKOs on pPokemon which do not resist it. However, if you are on the side of accuracy in that endless war between power and accuracy, you can run Surf, although you must remember that it will miss out on many KOs and that it is more reliant on rain than Hydro Pump to hit hard. Giga Drain is the Grass-type STAB of choice for Ludicolo, as it hits with decent power, covering the Water-types that like to come in and sponge Ludicolo's hits, while also providing healing for Ludicolo. Ice Beam is there to hit the Grass- and Dragon-types which resist both of Ludicolo's STAB moves. Finally, Rain Dance is there so that Ludicolo can activate rain itself if it so requires, although it is often best to switch out so that something else can set it up for Ludicolo -, making Focus Blast an attractive option for hitting Ferrothorn and Abomasnow harder than Ludicolo's other options. However, you should only be using this on a predicted switch-in, as these two Pokemon are only 2HKOed by Focus Blast and can both maim Ludicolo back with Knock OffPower Whip and Blizzard, respectively.

Set Details
========

The given EVs are simple: maximise Ludicolo's speed while providing as much punch as possible. Life Orb is used to aid Ludicolo in this respect, as it can boost its power to monsterousrifying levels in the case of Hydro Pump and to boost them to usable levels for its other moves. A mModest nature has been chosen in order to boost Ludicolo's power further, as well as due to the fact that Ludicolo will mostly be attacking under rain as it is. You can run timid if you want, however Ludicolo doesn't need the speed and will lose quite a bit of power with it; this is especially true if Ludicolo is running Surfmostly be attacking under rain as it is. Swift Swim is used so that Ludicolo actually has some sweeping capabilities, as its speed stat is otherwise middling.



Usage Tips
========

Due to the weather nerf this generation, Ludicolo now has a limited number of turns in which to abuse the rain, so play Ludicolo with precision (ie. land all of your predictions: Ludicolo doesn't have enough time to using Hydro Pump against something that resists ited move). However, you will find that Ludicolo will still be using Hydro Pump most of the time anyway, due to its raw power when under rain. Make sure that the rain is always up when you bring Ludicolo in: if it means sacrificing your Politoed to get the rain up so be it. Refresh the rain as much as possible, although nine times out of ten it will be best to have something other than Ludicolo set up the rain through Rain Dance or Drizzle. Also make sure that you remove anything that can prevent Ludicolo from successfully sweeping, such as Talonflame and Ferrothorn.




Team Options
========

Politoed, most notably the Damp Rock variant, is an amazing partner for Ludicolo for obvious reasons, as simply switching it in successfully is all the time it needs to get the rain up, due to Drizzle. Kingdra mutually benefitsand Luudicolo as they share the same set of checks and counters offensively, giving you a backup plan when one of them faints and letting one soften up walls for the other to break. Rotom-Wash is capable of dealing with Talonflame effectively without messing up Ludicolo's rain, making it a valuable asset on any team that features itLudicolo. Rapid Spin users, most notably Tentacruel for its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes upon switch-in and Latios due to its nicely buffed up Surf and Thunder, are able to deal with Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes - both of which plague Ludicolo due to the fact that they limit Ludicolo's sweeping capabilities and wear it down quickly, respectively. On the subject of Toxic Spikes, aAnything with Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to get rid of paralysis, burn or poison from Ludicolo, such as Chansey, Blissey or Vaporeon, is an excellent teammate as Ludicolo hates all three of these statuseparalysis. Finally, Thundurus provide a reliable stop to both Ferrothorn and Talonflame, most notably the former as Ludicolo is immune to Leech Seed and Thundurus is immune to Thunder Wave, while also having great synergy with Ludicolo with its nicely buffed Thunder.


Other Options
########

Ludicolo has a massive movepool to abuse. However, most of Ludicolo's other options are either outclassed by the options listed or another pPokemon who can do the job much better. First of all, Ludicolo can run Choice Specs for its ability to ease prediction a little, getting a guaranteed 2HKO on Latios with Hydro Pump. However, aside from the fact that thLife Orb Ludicombinlo 2HKOes Lation of Life Orbs with Hydro Pump in the rain and Life Orb +Ice Beam 2HKO Latios anyway, the main issue that it faces when it uses this is the fact that Ludicolo needs the ability to switch moves if it wants to do anything useful in the OU tier, as a Choice Specs set is outclassed by all of the specially offensive Pokemon listed in the overveiw excluding Kabutops, who is physically-based anyway. Energy Ball could be used over Giga Drain for the extra power output, and Encore is an option for stopping Pokemon from setting up on Ludicolo once the rain has worn off; however Ludicolo misses the healing that Giga Drain provides while Encore has very limited use and is very situational, making it a gimmick at best. On the subject of alternative moves, Scald can be used over Surf or Hydro Pump for the burn chance. H; however, you will often find that it lacks in power compared to said moves, missing out on many KOs even when it does burn. Finally, Ludicolo has access to Rain Dish. which could warreant a tank set with Assault Vest. However, the lack of permanent rain this generation diminishes the usefulness of such a set dramatically, so it is not recommended.




Checks and Counters
########

**Super Effective DamageAttacks**:Talonflame doesn't care about Swift Swim due to Gale Wings and can OHKO Ludicolo with Brave Bird 100% of the time, although it can't switch in against you, forcing it to come in after Ludicolo's attack or on a predicted Giga Drain. Also, Mega Venusaur doesn't care about Ice Beam due to Thick Fat and can hit Ludicolo hard back with a STAB Sludge Bomb.

**Anti-RainOther Weathers**:Anything that can change the weather from rain, most notably Mega Charizard Y who can OHKO with a sun-boosted Fire Blast - and if the mega evolution is predicted and Ludicolo uses Rain Dance modest variants can always OHKO with Air Slash whereas Timid variants will still OHKO 68.8% of the time -, and Mega Tyranitar who can outpace Ludicolo in sandstorm and OHKO with Stone Edge 100% of the time, while getting momentum when it predicts Rain Dance by mega evolving, is an effective way of dealing with Ludicolo, although Ninetales and non-mega Tyranitar varieants must be wary of Rain Dance.

**Hard -Hittering Tanks**:Kyurem ad Kyurem Black shrugs off everything that Ludicolo can throw ait them with ease and deal heavy damage back with Draco Meteor or Outrage, respectively, and. Assault Vest Conkeldurr can tank one of Ludicolo's attacks although, as a rain-boosted Hydro Pump will hurt a lot,nd strike back with a powerful Drain Punch or Knock off, although it must get a free switch-in against Ludicolo or predict an Ice Beam or Giga Drain correctly, and it can threaten Ludicolo backs a rain-boosted Hydro Pump with a powerful Drain Punch or Knock Offll hurt.

**Walls**:Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur wall Ludicolo to no entd and can retalliate back with Knock OffPower Whip or Sludge Bomb, respectively. Furthermore, any special wall, such as Chansey, Blissey or Assault Vest Goodra, can tank whatever Ludicolo throws at it and stall out Ludicolo's rain with ease.

**Anti-Speed Tactics**:Trick Room leaves Ludicolo in a predicament, as Ludicolo is forced to use the rainaster to have any jusort of offensive presence, andabout every common Trick Room just flips this Pokemon its head. Ludicolo also hates Paralysis, as it cuts Ludicompletely negates the effectslo down to a fourth of Swift Swimits speed. This means that common users of the move, such as Ferrothorn and Thundurus, are able to cause massive problems for Ludicolo. Finally, Sticky Web, while having less of an effect on Ludicolo than paralysis, is still detreimental for Ludicolo. This makes Galvantula and Smeargle - the most common users of the move - checks to Ludicolo, as well as the former being able tond to top it all of Galvantula even 2HKOes Ludicolo with Bug Buzz.

**Wearing- Down**:Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are able to wear Ludicolo down quickly in conjunction with the Life Orb recoil. While I'm still talking about Toxic, Toxic Spikes is also able tcan also get this powerful timer onto Ludicolo, by inflicting the poison or bad poison statuses onto Ludicolo. Finally, the combination of entry hazards and phazers increase the speed at which Ludicolo gets worn down further.
[/amcheck]



I had way too many of what i'd honestly call "QC" edits here, a lot of just really problematic stuff overall. I question if you know the meta well enough to write about it and it's kind of exhausting, along with all the bad grammar and stuff that i had to completely retool to make it work and then i'm kinda not really supposed to do that but someone has to and it might as well be me and ahh no more thought for tonight.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)