How the hell can you prepare yourself for Rain Dance teams? Chansey is to most obvious counter to Ludicolo, but what if it turns out to be an SD set? Tangrowth should do well then but he cannot take on entire Rain teams. Stalling out rain is almost impossible if your opponent has somewhat of a prediction skill. IMO the only way you can make a decent chance against these "Rain Dance noobs" is by using a Rain Dance team of your own.
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Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2458551&postcount=822
There is a list if you like. I cannot make it any more clear "how not to lose against rain dance teams". Kabutops is an issue, I know, but really it's only ONE Pokemon, if you prepare for it you should be fine. At least you can be 100% sure it will be on every (good) Rain team.
This is is another reason why Damp Rock is not the culprit, since the only real way to "stop" Rain Dance is to stop it from being set up in the first place. Regardless of whether it's 5 or 8 turns, you will have just as much trouble if you let them set it up.
It was pretty obvious to me that a rain team would win the tour. Good battlers usually avoid making rain team, so when they do, it tends to fuck players over pretty hard. Anyone know what team he was using? Also, don't use HP Grass Kabutops, Waterfall in the rain still kills opposing Kabutops.
All I need to say to this bullshit is that 'IPL won a tour this weekend too.' I'm not going to spoil his team, but anyone that knows what I'm talking about can clearly understand what point I am making with this statement.
You know, its actually quite sad that a rain team won a tour this weekend, considering the three Pokemon stall combo of Chansey, Tangrowth, and CRESSELIA stops every rain dance team ever made. So please, you can prepare yourself, and you can prepare yourself quite well without having to dedicate an entire team of 6 Pokemon even.
The question is, why would you let him SD up in the first place?? Say you have he comes in on Chansey. If he chooses to SD, then you can easily just Thunder Wave and fuck him over. Yes, he can kill you with Waterfall, but he stays at 361 or 329 Attack and then you can bring in something like Hitmontop for the Intimidate. A Rain team can't be countered by one Pokemon, I know, but you have remember a Rain team is a team. This means you require more than one Pokemon to counter it. You can't expect to stick a Tangrowth in front of a Rain team and expect him to wall everything.
Also I'd like to add some extra strategies onto Heysup's "How to beat Rain" guide.
-Toxic Spikes are great (I it's not that good in UU teams due to the number of grounded Poison types, but normally a team won't carry too many Poison types, meaning if you take it out, Toxic Spikes are absolutely wonderful. It pretty much fucks over a Rain team). Yes, I know Qwilfish can absorb them, but you can easily just set up the Spikes, then go on the offensive and Qwilfish would never be able to come in and absorb them without dying. One layer is enough against Rain teams (Arguably better than 2, because of the consistent 12% per turn damage, 22% when you factor in Life Orb). It takes one turn to absorb and one turn to set up, not much loss.
-Substitute on Rain Dancers. Usually, shit like Uxie who set up Rain teams won't be able to break Subs, all they do is set up Rain and U-Turn out. Sub on the Rain Dance and act accordingly. Stuff like SubPlot Houndoom, Mismagius, SubRoost Moltres give annoys the fuck out of Rain teams. If you have a Sub up (Toxic Spikes really shine here), you can stall out the Rain turns by Subbing as they break your Sub (If they SD or whatever, doesn't matter, you have your Sub to protect you, and they just lost a turn of Rain and possibly some health due to Poison). If you are carrying Leftovers, you can easily waste 5/6 or 7 turns of Rain sweeping, and if Toxic Spikes are up, expect that Rain sweeper to be stalled out the point where you can just OHKO the sweeper as they break your last Sub.
-Count the fucking Rain turns. I have seen so many people not count turns of Rain and watch Rain get set up again. Bring your Taunter or whatever (Taunt/SD Drapion works great) in straight after the Rain has stopped or preferably (If you can predict right, or if it's safe to) on Turn 8 of Rain Dance. Taunt the Rain Dancer and set up, then proceed to sweep.
-Punish the in-coming Rain sweeper. If you predict Uxie is going to U-Turns out on your Registeel, say, Explode or Thunder Wave on their incoming Ludicolo or Gorebyss or whatever. Exploding on a Kabutops doesn't hurt either, you probably just cut his sweep in half. If you have something like Steelix out (Preferably with entry hazards up too), Roar at the incoming Rain sweeper to i) Burn a turn of Rain and ii) Stack residual damage on another sweeper or Rain Dancer. Every bit of residual damage counts. If you have a TrickScarfer or TrickSpecs, you can Trick at the Uxie or the Rain sweeper (May sound stupid, but restricting a sweeper to one move really helps). If you Trick Uxie, that's fine, he can't set up 8 turns of Rain next time and you fucked over his support options. If you Trick'd the sweeper, fine, he's restricted to one move.
So, you don't have to have a dedicated anti-Rain team (Which would get owned by probably everything else), you just need to keep anti-Rain strategies in your head when playing against it.
Those are all good points, Shrang, but good rain teams can deal with all of them. For instance, I use Mespirit instead of Uxie; Mespirit can easily break most substitutes with some minor investment. It's hilarious watching Raikou attempt to sub on me and then end up facing down a kabutops with 75% health. I also use Qwilfish, and absorbing toxic spikes is actually easy, because Qwilfish gets a surprising amount of safe switchins (against Toxic, Hitmontop's Mach Punch, Toxicroak's vwave, etc). And I use moves like Heal Bell and Yawn to stop pseudohazers from "wasting" a turn of rain; if they choose to phaze expecting me to switch, I just got a free turn, which is really scary in Heal Bell's case especially, since people love to sac registeel to paralyze Kabutops.
Adding something to the so said rain guide; SleepTalk Rotom turns out to be a great asset against rain. It can burn physical rain abusers (IIRC Kabutops can't 2HKO if it gets burned in between attacks), has STAB on Tbolt/ Discharge, to deal some heavy damage to Qwilfish and Kabutops, while also having a nice paralysis rate (Discharge's case) to hit those annoying Ludicolos switching in. Finally, it won't mind switching into Explosion and can force Electrode to do so; as Thunder is barely hurting Rotom and no one will want to risk eating paralysis when switching to Ludicolo.
@ToF: That's undoubtedly a good defensive core against Rain, and should be enough to handle it when well played, but I wouldn't say by themselves. Qwilfish is still a bitch for this core to take down, as nothing will like Explosion and Tangrowth hates Poison Jab. Also, nothing stops a core of Qwilfish/Kabutops/ Physical Ludicolo breaking through it with some smart moves and putting pressure on Tangrowth.
@ToF: That's undoubtedly a good defensive core against Rain, and should be enough to handle it when well played, but I wouldn't say by themselves. Qwilfish is still a bitch for this core to take down, as nothing will like Explosion and Tangrowth hates Poison Jab. Also, nothing stops a core of Qwilfish/Kabutops/ Physical Ludicolo breaking through it with some smart moves and putting pressure on Tangrowth.
@ ToF: Although those suggestions are very nice I find it hard to accept that one MUST have Chansey, Cresselia and Tangrowth on it's team just to be able to have a chance against Rain teams. That is 50% of a team. You might as well fill the other positions on the team with a solid counter to Porygon-z, Raikou and Sandstorm/ Hail. This will make all teams look alike.
I mean isn't it insane that those pokemon are a must to counter one of the most predictable strategy ever made without having a solid chance of success.
About that "how to beat Rain" guide. Those suggestions might help but how are you able to set up Toxic Spikes, Subsitute, ... (and preferable multiple times in the battle) when you are constantly under attack. I think that Scarfed Venusaur lead that Heysup uses is one of the more reliable (and also one of the easiest) ways to actually counter Rain Dance teams as it prevents Rain from setting up to begin with. And that is actually pretty clever. I mean if you make sure that your opponent will never get the Rain up then it's sweepers are far from dangerous.
I mean isn't it insane that those pokemon are a must to counter one of the most predictable strategy ever made without having a solid chance of success.
About that "how to beat Rain" guide. Those suggestions might help but how are you able to set up Toxic Spikes, Subsitute, ... (and preferable multiple times in the battle) when you are constantly under attack. I think that Scarfed Venusaur lead that Heysup uses is one of the more reliable (and also one of the easiest) ways to actually counter Rain Dance teams as it prevents Rain from setting up to begin with. And that is actually pretty clever. I mean if you make sure that your opponent will never get the Rain up then it's sweepers are far from dangerous.
I really hate it when someone lists counters and someone else is like, "Oh so now you HAVE to have those Pokémon. BROKEN!!!" It's just putting words into people's mouths and completely discrediting the other guy's experiences for no reason other than "That's not what I experienced."
Again, I'd like to say that Rain Dance is a team. This means you require a team to counter it (More than 1 Pokemon at least). Also Chansey, Tangrowth and Cresselia (Going to be banned soon, so whatever) can easily form the defensive core of a Stall team. Also, if you play your strategies right, you don't need those Pokemon at all. I remember when I beat Flare and his Rain team, all I had was a Kabutops lead (Which in the end isn't really going to be able to stand up to Rain sweepers), Bulk Up Technitop that was really any good checks to a Rain team. I also had defensive Drapion and SubRoost Moltres that did probably more damage to the Rain team more than anything else. So really, it isn't really down to the counters, it is up to your strategies.
Bluewind, that's exactly the idea. Qwilfish has to explode on Cresselia who has no other business beating rain anyway. I've already explained this to god knows how many people, if you can get your rain opponent to play in a predictable way that benefits you then good, you've won half the battle. If Qwilfish explodes on Cresselia, great, because Tangrowth and Chansey stop the rest of the opposing rain dance sweepers. It's done its job. I've already discussed how Tangrowth individually beats both SD Ludicolo and a non-boosted Kabutops in the rain, so I'm not going to bother with that one again.
I also said the stall core of - this implies I'm talking about a stall team. Offensive teams should have other ways to beat rain, including Moltres who can basically kill every rain based member once you stall rain barring Aqua Jet Kabutops. Other things offensively that do well include Absol, Venusaur does decently, Raikou can be a monster, etc. You aren't restricted to using stall-based Pokemon to stop rain, it was just a suggestion. That three mon core is damn unbeatable against rain.
I also said the stall core of - this implies I'm talking about a stall team. Offensive teams should have other ways to beat rain, including Moltres who can basically kill every rain based member once you stall rain barring Aqua Jet Kabutops. Other things offensively that do well include Absol, Venusaur does decently, Raikou can be a monster, etc. You aren't restricted to using stall-based Pokemon to stop rain, it was just a suggestion. That three mon core is damn unbeatable against rain.
Still the only valid argument against Rain being UU is that:
"<insert offensive Pokemon> can beat rain except for Kabutops". SD Kabutops is literally the only thing making Rain even being considered a suspect.
Actually, Absol can beat it if you predict the Aqua Jet and use Superpower instead of Sucker Punch (Absol always survives unboosted Aqua Jet, and will usually survive after Stealth Rock damage). If Absol has not taken Stealth Rock damage, it will then get in one last Sucker Punch against anything but Qwilfish's Aqua Jet. But anyway, after Kabutops is gone, Moltres can defeat a Rain team after rain ends. So can Venusaur, since it can survive all Ice-typed attacks and then plow through the opponent, although attacking drops from Leaf Storm plus entry hazards, or Life Orb damage, can defeat it prematurely.
Uh, Heysup, Qwilfish gets Aqua Jet too. It's also better suited to handling Moltres since it can actually survive any of Moltres' attacks, unlike Kabutops, who rolls over and dies to HP Grass. I'm getting rather sick of this "It's Kabutops!" business. Myself and others have proven multiple times over that Kabutops isn't particularly better than any other rain sweeper.
While Kabutops does not enjoy an HP Grass, Moltres doesn't enjoy an Aqua Jet either, making Moltres a somewhat shaky check unless it doesn't mind losing half of its health. Moltres can beat everything on a rain team when it is not raining EXCEPT for Kabutops and Qwilfish because they have Aqua Jet, which doesn't KO unboosted, but will seriously hurt.
Edit: Wrong thread >_> Anyway, yeah, Moltres won't enjoy an Aqua Jet, but it can still survive unboosted aqua jets if it's not raining and it hasn't taken SR damage.
Absol "can", but all Kabutops needs to do is use a regular attack and it can survive + still OHKO Absol. It does a great job against every other Pokemon, so Kabutops won't mind leaving itself with 2-3ish turns left to sweep in order to take out Absol.
Also, notice how once Kabutops is gone Rain counters are popping up everywhere?
Timid Moltres Air Slash vs Qwilfish: 92.3% - 108.9%
You were saying? Oh did you mean any of Moltres's attacks except Air Slash? Kabutops fairs better without the Rain, especially if it picks up a Swords Dance.
And you did not even remotely prove anything about Kabutops not being better than any other Rain sweeper. Feel free to try, but it would likely be a waste of time. No other Pokemon has great defense, Stone Edge, 361 unboosted Attack, Aqua Jet, and Swords Dance, etc etc etc. Kabutops is the sole reason Rain wins against Offense, Stall, and Balance since it has a very very small amount of viable counters.
The funny thing is no one would even bother trying to make a Kabutopsless Rain Dance team. If you thought Damp Rockless rain was bad, you have another thing coming.
That's an odd damage calculation, since I recall my Qwilfish surviving Moltres Air Slashes before. I wonder if the 32-odd EVs I have in HP make a difference. Or maybe I'm confusing it with the damage my bulky leadfish took. Anyway, even if the calc is accurate, it just means that Qwilfish is about as similar as Kabutops is with regards to dealing with Moltres, which is against your point anyway. Also, I did prove that Kabutops was not better than any other rain sweeper, you just chose not to accept my proof. Or the statements any of the other individuals made regarding the issue. Or the experiences of the people who actually use rain teams. That's not really my problem. And finally, no one uses a serious rain team without Kabutops because it's one of the the best rain sweepers. It would be like saying "Froslass' easy spikes aren't broken because people primarily use it with Moltres/Swellow/[insert effective sweeper] and not Luvdisc". I personally wouldn't ever use a serious rain team without Ludicolo either, so I'm not sure what your point is supposed to prove.
To those people that feel like SD Kabutops is the problem, you're wrong. Rain Dance as a whole facilitates as a group to overwhelm a "spectrum" - sorta like HO on drugs. Its very rare that you see Kabutops alone without physical Qwilfish, physical Ludicolo, or even physical Floatzel to work with alongside it. I believe that X won't function well with Y beating up a physical wall. You can't just weed out SD Kabutops because it has great defense, access to priority, and a great secondary STAB, etc. There are still notable rain threats with their own special niches that could be comparable with Kabutops. I just think its unfair to isolate Kabutops when I feel like SD Qwilfish, Ludicolo, or Gorebyss could equally be dangerous.
Except, you know, that it can OHKO Moltres with a +2 Aqua Jet. You are confusing more than just your damage calculations my friend.
And my damage calculation is clearly not odd, arguing with a fact does not get you anywhere.
No I'm right. I don't get the point of people saying things like this.
I guess I'll read the rest :P.
Franky said:
Yes, I can and I am. Why "can't" I weed out the (basically) undisputed best Rain Dance abuser and question ITS tiering as opposed to Rain itself? "That's not how it works?" It's like questioning Gallade and Honchkrow with offense.
And you suggesting that "Rain overwhelms a spectrum" does not sound like "HO on drugs", it sounds like HO. The definition of HO.
Rain itself is not even remotely hard to handle. Stall teams should, and do easily handle most rain teams (ToF has explained this n times).....unless Kabutops sets up....Offense handles rain with a little bit of priority from Absol and the like (I have posted calcs n times).....until Kabutops comes out. This is the reason Rain is perceived as broken: Kabutops.
Hell, even if Stall handles Kabutops "perfectly fine", giving offense basically no chance is still grounds for banning (read: Crobat, Yanmega) just like raping stall is (read: Gallade, Honchkrow, Staraptor). To be honest I'd rather play against Yanmega than Kabutops any day.
I've been laddering for about a week now in UU, but I haven't seen any Rain Dance teams. However, I'm fairly certain my current team would do quite well, for the following reasons:
Trick and Rapid Spin Lead- If they SR first turn, awesome. Not terrible if they Rain Dance. Rapid Spin also clears the way for...
Ol' Gimmicky Shedinja- As far as I know, the only thing on Rain besides Stealth Rock to hit Shedinja is Kabutops' Rock Moves, the rare Shadow Ball Raikou, and the rare Toxic/Will-O-Wisp. Some smart switching, and then you get swept by a 1 HP bug.
The team, in theory, would work so well because Rain Dance teams completely play into my strategy.
Trick and Rapid Spin Lead- If they SR first turn, awesome. Not terrible if they Rain Dance. Rapid Spin also clears the way for...
Ol' Gimmicky Shedinja- As far as I know, the only thing on Rain besides Stealth Rock to hit Shedinja is Kabutops' Rock Moves, the rare Shadow Ball Raikou, and the rare Toxic/Will-O-Wisp. Some smart switching, and then you get swept by a 1 HP bug.
The team, in theory, would work so well because Rain Dance teams completely play into my strategy.
I seriously think there's no point arguing with Heysup because logs, testimony and personal experience are all just:
In fact something as indisputable as "having Damp Rock means you can run max attack Adamant" is still just:
Or how having 8 turns of rain means you're less vulnerable to Substitute stalling is still:
Even though getting Substitute stalled is far more likely than switching a full-health Uxie into a Swellow Facade with Stealth Rock not up, but hey, switching Uxie into Swellow is for some reason not:
but instead satisfies:
And then we get things like:
When to RD players it's obvious that Ludicolo brings so many more things to the table like its unique offensive typing i.e. being able to use STAB attacks vs. bulky Water types, as well as having access to attacks like Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch and Focus Punch for use against Pokemon like Poliwrath, Venusaur and Chansey, as well as its unpredictability, but don't worry guys: it's pretty clear that Ludicolo is on RD teams
This thread is fast going downhill.
PS: Apologies for the frustration, but when everything you say gets dismissed as "subjective and biased speculation", it's hard not to get frustrated.
Heysup said:
In fact something as indisputable as "having Damp Rock means you can run max attack Adamant" is still just:
Heysup said:
Or how having 8 turns of rain means you're less vulnerable to Substitute stalling is still:
Heysup said:
Even though getting Substitute stalled is far more likely than switching a full-health Uxie into a Swellow Facade with Stealth Rock not up, but hey, switching Uxie into Swellow is for some reason not:
Heysup said:
but instead satisfies:
Heysup said:
And then we get things like:
Heysup said:
When to RD players it's obvious that Ludicolo brings so many more things to the table like its unique offensive typing i.e. being able to use STAB attacks vs. bulky Water types, as well as having access to attacks like Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch and Focus Punch for use against Pokemon like Poliwrath, Venusaur and Chansey, as well as its unpredictability, but don't worry guys: it's pretty clear that Ludicolo is on RD teams
Heysup said:
This thread is fast going downhill.
PS: Apologies for the frustration, but when everything you say gets dismissed as "subjective and biased speculation", it's hard not to get frustrated.
Saying Shedinja beats rain isn't going to prove anything. Shedinja is a useless piece of shit outside of beating Rain teams. it can't switch in thanks to SR or spikes and it just sucks
Biased logs are biased. Unbiased logs are not biased. It is simple really. Personal experience and testimony are unreliable. Your memory is not a video recorder.
Banedon said:
Ok.
Wait what?
Banedon said:
No it isn't, I never said it was. It simply makes very little of a difference versus a Pokemon who can substitute 5 turns in a row and KO you on the turn that the rain ends (aka Raikou, Mismagius, etc).
Banedon said:
Yes damage calculations are biased speculation.
Wait what?
Banedon said:
Damn those flawed damage calculators! But not really.
Banedon said:
So then use Floatzel, it learns all of those attacks and has higher Speed and Attack.
Why do you lose Ludicolo if not for its typing? Seriously it's stupid to have on your Rain team if it's typing isn't the main reason it's used; otherwise it's outclassed.
This isn't even "subjective or biased speculation", it's just simply not making sense.
And you're pushing it down.
Banedon said:
I can't dismiss subjective and biased speculation? The simple way around this is to not use subjective and biased speculation as the foundations of your (Damp Rock crowd) argument.
The only evidence that has really been posted are the logs that happen (yes I know, "HEYSUP WOULD ONLY THINK HIS LOGS ARE GOOD") to be posted by me. If someone else was willing to post 15 non-cherrypicked random opponent ladder logs, and that they support your case, then you would indeed have a case. These logs simply showed that I played equally "good" for each team and won an equal amount.