Medicham (OU Antilead)

[DarXidE]

erased. whoops!

 

[GaRgAnt]

sorry for double post



You beat metagross, as low kick is always a 2hko and you outspeed. I also said you beat roserade who sleep powder first turn, or the bulkier ones who lead, as you can outspeed them, and fake out scouts it for you.

ok i lose to Azelf, Jirachi, Swampert/Hippowdon you say? 3 out of however many is not bad at all. except, vs. those leads, Medicham gets the advantage. He can Fake Out Jirachi to scout its item, as well as Fake Out Azelf to remove its sash, while some Azelfs can also beat machamp, and Jirachi will flinch it as well. Swampert and Hippowdon, i do lose to. but they are not used very often at all, and machamp cant hit them as hard as medicham can anyway.

I'd also like to add that if Rotom were to switch in, Zen Headbutt can 3HKO it while Lum Berry protects you from will-o-wisp. Now without Hi Jump Kick, you dont take damage from the switchin, which isnt too much anyway. Thunderbolt wont OHKO, and you're faster than all rotoms that arent a +speed nature or scarfed, who you 2HKO.

You don't understand. You're losing to some of the most common leads in OU without question. You can surely Fake Out Jirachis to figure out their item yes, and oh look you get flinched to death. That's you're idea?

 

[Ice-eyes]

Oh, and it would be helpful if you would explain exactly how using Fake Out on Jirachi lets you figure out its item.

 

[Chillarmy]

5%, meaning 5 out of 100. thats not very common imo.

Azelf and Metagross outright destroy this set while Aero's stuck with the choice of setting up SR, or scouting for a Sash. Out of the 'common' leads, Machamp is the only Pokemon that Medicham reliably beats, and it's not very difficult to design a lead that shits on LeadChamp. Jynx and Espeon can OHKO Machamp and get the jump on a few other leads, but does that grant them their own lead set? Hell no. Like Medicham, they have few little utility outside of the lead position, and are a bitch to switch back in (barring double switches and revenge kills of course). That being said, Medicham won't be able to do much later in the game with a base 80 Speed, paper defenses, and shitty coverage.

On a smaller note, three of the top 5 leads only have 5% lead usage, that doesn't mean that they're uncommon. Swampert takes up a good 13% of overall usage in OU if you wanna go there, too. Then again it doesn't take bringing up statistics to know that Swampert is a common lead. Maybe you're just lucky? I don't know, but I can't go three matches without seeing one.

 

[DarXidE]

You don't understand. You're losing to some of the most common leads in OU without question. You can surely Fake Out Jirachis to figure out their item yes, and oh look you get flinched to death. That's you're idea?

I'm sure you know that you can switch out, to something such as a heatran to take iron head or trick. Machamp wouldnt know his item, and would have to take a blind guess. and how the hell does he lose to most of the common leads?? i mean seriously. He loses to Azelf, yes, but you can at least remove its sash and switch out. with machamp, you do beat the regular SR lead, but against coulber and choice band azelf, machamp loses too. but at least you get damage on it with medicham. it doesnt really lose to much else except infernape and swampert, while machamp loses to Metagross, Swampert sometimes, some Azelf, Dragonite, Jirachi, and other things, where medicham gets the advantage.

Azelf and Metagross outright destroy this set while Aero's stuck with the choice of setting up SR, or scouting for a Sash. Out of the 'common' leads, Machamp is the only Pokemon that Medicham reliably beats, and it's not very difficult to design a lead that shits on LeadChamp. Jynx and Espeon can OHKO Machamp and get the jump on a few other leads, but does that grant them their own lead set? Hell no. Like Medicham, they have few little utility outside of the lead position, and are a bitch to switch back in (barring double switches and revenge kills of course). That being said, Medicham won't be able to do much later in the game with a base 80 Speed, paper defenses and shitty coverage.

On a smaller note, three of the top 5 leads only have 5% lead usage, that doesn't mean that they're uncommon. Swampert takes up a good 13% of overall usage in OU if you wanna go there, too. Then again it doesn't take bringing up statistics to know that Swampert is a common lead. Maybe you're just lucky? I don't know.

Ok, i have no idea how metagross destroys this set at all.

Turn one:
Medicham used Low Kick. Metagross lost 52% minimum.
Metagross used Stealth Rock.

Turn 2:
Medicham used Low Kick. Metagross Fainted!
Medicham still has 100% health.

also, his defenses arent very paperthin. they arent great, but it lets it survive a few things. Maybe if i changed the EV spread to be able to survive things such as roserade's leaf storm of infernape's fire blast, it would be better.

Oh, and it would be helpful if you would explain exactly how using Fake Out on Jirachi lets you figure out its item.

If theres Leftovers recovery, then its leftovers....if not, then its scarf, which most are.

 

[Chillarmy]

Turn one:
Medicham used Low Kick. Metagross lost 52% minimum.
Metagross used Stealth Rock.

Turn 2:
Medicham used Low Kick. Metagross Fainted!
Medicham still has 100% health.

Metagross has great chance at OHKOing Medicham with Meteor Mash, and if it survives, can finish it off with Bullet Punch. Who the fuck is going to leave Medicham at full HP? It's very likely that something as frail as Medicham is going to be holding a Sash if it's leading off the game. You're making it seem as if every player underestimates Medicham's offensive capability (come on, who doesn't know that Pure Power is Medicham's only ability lol).

also, his defenses arent very paperthin. they arent great, but it lets it survive a few things. Maybe if i changed the EV spread to be able to survive things such as roserade's leaf storm of infernape's fire blast, it would be better.

Then Medicham either loses a shitload of power, or becomes a lot slower.

If theres Leftovers recovery, then its leftovers....if not, then its scarf, which most are.

Lum Berry and Damp Rock don't recover HP

 

[DarXidE]

Metagross has great chance at OHKOing Medicham with Meteor Mash, and if it survives, can finish it off with Bullet Punch. Who the fuck is going to leave Medicham at full HP? It's very likely that something as frail as Medicham is going to be holding a Sash if it's leading off the game. You're making it seem as if every player underestimates Medicham's offensive capability (come on, who doesn't know that Pure Power is Medicham's only ability lol).



Then Medicham either loses a shitload of power, or becomes a lot slower.


Lum Berry and Damp Rock don't recover HP

if that scenario happens against Metagross, than your job was accomplished by stopping SR, while taking away more than half of its HP.

for the HP EV's i would probably take out of its speed, but leave enough to outspead certain pokemon like anti lead dragonite.

and you're right about the 3rd thing, but still some do have leftovers. if they are the damp rock / lum berry leads, well machamp doesnt do much better.

 

[supermarth64]

I'm sure you know that you can switch out, to something such as a heatran to take iron head or trick.

If you have to switch out to beat Jirachi then you don't beat it.

Machamp wouldnt know his item, and would have to take a blind guess.

Like that really matters, it flinch haxes you even if it doesn't have a Scarf.

and how the hell does he lose to most of the common leads?? i mean seriously. He loses to Azelf, yes, but you can at least remove its sash and switch out.

Machamp can remove its Sash with Payback/Bullet Punch anyway. If you're switching out against Azelf then you haven't beaten it yet.

with machamp, you do beat the regular SR lead, but against coulber and choice band azelf, machamp loses too. but at least you get damage on it with medicham.

Machamp can at least beat Azelf, all that you manage to do is get off some weak damage against it and then you're forced to switch out because you don't 2HKO it.

it doesnt really lose to much else except infernape and swampert,

Azelf: Medicham can't 2HKO any Azelf set, Machamp beats non-Colbur and Band Azelf sets. Additionally, you're forced to switch out to beat Azelf, and while you can say "Oh just switch in a Ghost on Explosion", he's seen 3 of your Pokemon AND gotten down SR while you've seen 1. I'd rather use Machamp.
Machamp: For Machamp, whoever DynamicPunches first wins, while Medicham wins outright. Medicham here.
Aerodactyl: Both 2HKO Aerodactyl, but it gets up SR anyway. Machamp is the bigger threat because confusion > anything that Medicham has. Rather use Machamp.
Metagross: Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch 2HKOes Medicham while Medicham can't Low Kick twice. If they SR, you win but it's more advantageous to Metagross to Meteor Mash, as they beat you and can get up SR later. As for Machamp, Metagross can SR + Explode or SR + Meteor Mash and switch in something faster than Machamp (not hard). If Metagross Meteor Mashes first vs Medicham, you lose. Rather use Machamp, as least you get off a big chunk of damage and remove its Lum Berry if they 2x Meteor Mash Machamp.
Swampert: Both 3HKO Swampert, Machamp can win with Confusion hax. I'd rather use Machamp.
Jirachi: It flinch haxes both. However, it 3HKOes Machamp and 2HKOes Medicham, while Machamp can 2HKO with Dpunch and Medicham can't do jack besides Fake Out and then switch out. I'd rather use Machamp.
Infernape: Fake Out + Fire Blast KOes Medicham a good chunk of the time, meaning it still has its Sash. Machamp survives and can DPunch. I'd rather use Machamp.
Roserade: Leaf Storm OHKOes Medicham, doesn't OHKO Machamp. Roserade loses its Sash both ways. I'd rather use Machamp.
Heatran: Medicham outspeeds and 2HKOes Heatran while Machamp DPunches after Heatran sets up SR or Explodes. Medicham wins here.
Ninjask: Medicham Fake Outs for w/e damage, while whatever comes in for Machamp gets hit by a DynamicPunch and confused. If it's a Ghost, Shadow Ball OHKOes Medicham while Machamp can at least Payback. I'd rather use Machamp.
Hippowdon: Hippowdon 2HKOes Medicham with EQ, Medicham 3HKOes with Low Kick. Hippowdon 3HKOes Machamp while Machamp 4HKOes Hippowdon but Hippowdon has to fight Confusion hax. I'd rather use Machamp.
Tyranitar: Using Machamp lets Tyranitar get up SR but no good player would sacrifice Ttar JUST for SR. I'd rather use Machamp due to DPunch.
Starmie: HPump OHKOes Medicham but you get off a Fake Out, Machamp lives and gets off a Payback. I'd rather use Machamp.
Uxie: Machamp can 2HKO TrickScarf Uxie with Payback, while Medicham does jack with its attacks. I'd rather use Machamp.
Dragonite: Machamp can eat a Draco Meteor and KO back with Ice Punch, while Medicham can outspeed and KO with Ice Punch. Medicham wins here.

So it loses to: Azelf, Aerodactyl, Metagross, Swampert, Jirachi, Infernape, Roserade, Ninjask, Starmie, and Uxie.

while machamp loses to Metagross, Swampert sometimes, some Azelf, Dragonite, Jirachi, and other things, where medicham gets the advantage.

Metagross: If it Meteor Mashes first Medicham loses.
Swampert: Confusion > nothing as both 3HKO.
Azelf: Medicham beats NO Azelf, Machamp beats non-Band and Colbur Azelf.
Dragonite: Loses in comparison to Medicham but beats Dragonite anyway.
Jirachi: Machamp 2HKOes with DPunch while Jirachi 3HKOes with Iron Head. Jirachi 2HKOes Medicham and Medicham does nothing and if you're switching out then you lost the lead matchup.

also, his defenses arent very paperthin. they arent great, but it lets it survive a few things. Maybe if i changed the EV spread to be able to survive things such as roserade's leaf storm of infernape's fire blast, it would be better.

If you EV it to survive stuff then it either doesn't outspeed Heatran or it doesn't hit hard enough.

 

[cim]

Against the common leads Medicham beats, Machamp can sometimes win against opposing machamp, although anti lead vs. anti lead accomplishes cothing. Dragonite can beat machamp. Metagross is usually faster, so it has a good shot of setting up SR and exploding for the OHKO, which i would call a loss. Smeargle and Aerodactyl, Machamp wins. Heatran is outsped and OHKOd by Medicham, while it can either sacrifice itself for SR or OHKO with a specs Overheat or an Explosion, which would be a loss for Machamp.


Overall, it seems like Medicham beats the common leads better than machamp does.

That's just not true. Metagross being faster doesn't matter because unlike Medicham, Machamp can actually live through an attack. Dragonite always loses to Machamp (doesn't OHKO, gets hit with Ice Punch). The case basically applies to every Pokemon you've listed.

op-ed: People need to stop being so obsessed with "beating all the other leads" and need to stop putting so much importance in stopping what your opponent is doing. If you lose to 2 or 3 leads or they get out Stealth Rock, there are ways to get around that! Notably, you can use your Medicham to be an offensive threat. If people stopped their obsession with "beating the top 10 leads" and rejecting every set that doesn't maybe we wouldn't have even stumbled onto Machamp in the first place. basically, lead matchups are way less important than people think

all of that being said I don't think this lead is anything special out of testing. If it were a bit more bulky I'd love it as a decently fast offensive threat that is hard to set up on after the lead matchup, but right now it's far too easy for the lead to just be a "5-5 trade" with no upside for the Medicham user.

 

[Chillarmy]

if that scenario happens against Metagross, than your job was accomplished by stopping SR, while taking away more than half of its HP.

How is Medicham's job accomplished if Metagross can just fire off a Bullet Punch before it dies? Your opponent has SR up and Medicham can no longer feign a Focus Sash, giving just about anything to chance to switch in and revenge it.

Medicham just can't put as much pressure on opposing teams like Machamp can. Machamp has its Lum Berry and usable bulk to fall back on later in the game, and can just fire off Dynamicpunches to its heart's content. The fact that Medicham almost 4HKOes Swampert with no chance of preventing SR makes it extremely underwhelming and its defenses aren't anything better. Try switching Medicham in on ScarfTar's Crunch, or U-turn from Scizor

 

[HART4FLOON]

If you EV it to survive stuff then it either doesn't outspeed Heatran or it doesn't hit hard enough.

There is probably no way to make Medicham bulky enough to survive since it'll need to invest at least 200+ EVs and even then it's at LEAST 2HKOed by everything (most things will do 90%+ anyway).

 

[cim]

There is probably no way to make Medicham bulky enough to survive since it'll need to invest at least 200+ EVs and even then it's at LEAST 2HKOed by everything (most things will do 90%+ anyway).

While you're pretty much right, please don't just "guess" EVs. We have calculators...

 

[Curtains]

Dragonite always loses to Machamp (doesn't OHKO, gets hit with Ice Punch).

choice band Dnite ko's with Outrage so it does not "always" lose. Anyways basically this set is extremely outclassed and darxide can't explain why it isn't.

 

[iDunno]

You're better off just running this thing banded with Bullet Punch...

Then at least it can deal somewhat with Aerodactyl...

Even though it can still get its rocks up...

So it ends up being useless anyway...

nvm forget i said anything

 

[Shizzle]

Most of this logic is fairly stupid. Why would Metagross stay in for the second Hi Jump Kick. Hello Rotom-A or something which resists/immune to Fighting, and easily threatening to OHKO Medicham with almost any move.

There is a difference with Machamp, because he has Dynamic Punch, in other words confusion will screw up anything not immune to it, and Payback royally screws over any decent ghost pokemon [gengar/rotom-a], and neither threatens to OHKO. Rotom-A can't even use Will o Wisp because of Lum Berry.

Machamp also has the defences to take hits really well from opposing leads, and as such doesn't even need a sash which other frail leads rely on.

You must also realise, an Anti-Lead can take on several roles, none of which are met by Medicham. You don't prevent Stealth Rock in any way. You don't pose any threat because the opponent can easily switch out after getting rocks out if the matchup is not good.

 

[cim]

You must also realise, an Anti-Lead can take on several roles, none of which are met by Medicham. You don't prevent Stealth Rock in any way. You don't pose any threat because the opponent can easily switch out after getting rocks out if the matchup is not good.

While I agree with you, Medicham doesn't "not pose any threat". It has a massive Attack stat and Zen Headbutt can nearly OHKO Rotom-A on the switch. While the set isn't good, it does have immediate power going for it.

 

[Setsuna]

I don't see why this set should be on-site. Several people, including QCers, have already proved with solid statements how the proposed set is not an effective Anti-lead, and I'm going to base on that for giving this set its final rejection.