Ubers has primal groudon and rayquaza and is completely different from OU. I explicitly said that nothing is being brought down to check/counter other broken things, there is other reasons entirely
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Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)
- Thread starter haunter
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Ubers has primal groudon and rayquaza and is completely different from OU. I explicitly said that nothing is being brought down to check/counter other broken things, there is other reasons entirely
I think no one in their right mind is going to repeat himself since the content of that whole post was already covered during 2 or 3 pages. And I don't know how is possible for someone to say that we don't need old ubers for checking/countering Mega Mence and in the next sentence say that we should drop ubers.
But hey, I think we should just drop everything and erase Ubers. That would make the OU meta more "fun, exciting & challenging" for sure!
Uban things that were previously banned, because [reasons], and them being able to check salamence has nothing to do with it. We already have counters.
Then it makes even less sense. First, you say that Mence is the best of the best in the OU atm (that is true), then that things that are banned from OU successfully keep each other at bay (that they do, true), and then say that you do not advocate bringing anything down (which completely contradicts the first two statements). Bringing everything down to check each other does make sense (albeit in a perverted sort of way), banning things up to Ubers makes sense, but not doing anything and keeping a single overpowered threat that can punish 90% of the meta for absolutely anything and the other 10% (the supposed checks) for wrongly guessing your set or losing a 50/50 between Sub and DD makes zero sense.
Addendum:
None of them would be an answer to MMence. Genesect dies, Kangaskhan dies, Deo-S would check it only as much as Greninja does right now, Deo-D dies, Luke dies, Aegislash and Mawile die (Fire Blast or EQ), Mega Gengar is outsped after a DD and dies without even a double down through DBond
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Ok, I think you need to stop. You haven't made a single good argument in this entire thread. I want to assume that you're a Salamence fanboy. There is no such thing as a true counter to Mega Mence. If somebody is saying we have to drop Ubers to even check Mega Mence, it NEEDS TO BE BANNED, and there is no more discussion about this.
Too much bulk and raw power for the OU meta. Not to mention the unpredictability. Could be the common sub+dd set, could be dd with return and EQ, could be jolly with double edge/thrash, could be a special attacking variant. All are unpredictable and all are very strong. Basically if he gets matched up against a mon without ice beam its gg. Being able to 6-0 a team because of one bad matchup for the opponent is not fair in any way.
OK, don't fall for this guy bait. Honestly his idea is terrible to the core, as stated several times by several users.
This is plain and painfully obvious bait to derail the Salamence discussion bringing up threats that don't belong at all to the OU tier and where rightfully tested and quick banned at their time.
Let's focus on the talk of megamence qualities despite the fact that we are beating the dead dog with them rather than the irrelevant mumbo jumbo about bringing down ubers to OU.
TLDR, ignore any uber qualms and wet dreams spit randomly around here and focus on what OU has.
Can the posting rights of someone be restricted on this thread be restricted d if all its arguments were nothing but a bunch of illogical fallacies that derailed this thread on repeated occasions? I'm not trying to minimod but Damm it's painful to read users with good arguments being baited by this baseless and wishful speculation.
This is plain and painfully obvious bait to derail the Salamence discussion bringing up threats that don't belong at all to the OU tier and where rightfully tested and quick banned at their time.
Let's focus on the talk of megamence qualities despite the fact that we are beating the dead dog with them rather than the irrelevant mumbo jumbo about bringing down ubers to OU.
TLDR, ignore any uber qualms and wet dreams spit randomly around here and focus on what OU has.
Can the posting rights of someone be restricted on this thread be restricted d if all its arguments were nothing but a bunch of illogical fallacies that derailed this thread on repeated occasions? I'm not trying to minimod but Damm it's painful to read users with good arguments being baited by this baseless and wishful speculation.
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No. We. Don't.
There may be shaky counters to it's sets but there isn't a single reliable counter that can put on a team and call it a day and you said it yourself (highlighted it even).
Your proposal to unban all the previous banned pokemon violates what Smogon is trying to achieve with it's metagame. Instead of making 50 to 100 pokemon viable you'd make only around 20 viable on any serious teams. The power-creep is real and goes up no matter how much we try to ban the broken shit but we are aiming to make them reasonably manageable, we already have a tier for all the pokemon OU can't handle and it sounds like your ideal metagame so please just let it go and stop trying to make this ridiculous argument. You used the term stale to describe this:
I'd take on the team on the second page any day over the first one. Why? Cause everything would be ten times more stale if we had to worry about the Deoxys forms, mega kanga, luke, mence, maw, genesect and aegislash. It would be a ladder where only either stall or hyper-offense would exist and that would be a optimistic look. In fact it wouldn't matter if we'd brought majority of the ubers or even Mega Gengar cause I see no reason why we should favor your favorite playstyle when every other play-style becomes non-existent.
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So, we should Drop Ubers, so that we can have other Pokemon that are on par with Mega Mence. . . You're saying, there are Pokemon, that were banned to ubers, that are as capable of tearing OU apart as Menace is. You've admitted to Mence being overcentralizing, you've admitted to it having insane power, up there with the Ubers that have already been booted. So, because of this, we should bring these Ubers down to "balance" what the meta is now. Instead of just moving Mence up with its broken counter parts.
How does this not sound ridiculous even to you?
How does this not sound ridiculous even to you?
My thoughts on all this: I honestly don't think MegaMence should be quick banned. While i agree it is super strong and can rip holes through teams, it does have reliable checks. Even if you have to sacrifice one of your pokes to get your check in safely, thats just a part of playing pokemon. If you don't want to deal with OP stuff then don't play pokemon! Also, most of your regular birdspam counters work here as well.
Itl probably get banned anyway tho because like 95 percent of the posts in here say quick-ban..
Itl probably get banned anyway tho because like 95 percent of the posts in here say quick-ban..
As far as I can tell he wants a everything goes OU test ladder(Wich is called UBERS already) so he can use whatever he wants and disguise it with the excuse of us wasting time and resources on balancing that (Witch will end up going back to be OU as all of the above will be banned again) instead of using what we already worked hard to balance for a desired OU meta.
Just ignore his bait. Not even a magikarp would bite that old rod.
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Ok, so I do get your point, (although I disagree with it), but it is completely irrelevant. This is not a discussion about whether there are mons in Ubers that need to be retested in OU. Perhaps there are, I don't know. Nonetheless, "reopening OU"(/Ubers, as you've referred to it elsewhere, idk) is not on the table here. Stop arguing for it, it's off topic. It's a discussion for a different day and different thread.
So nothing is getting brought down from Ubers to 'balance' OU, and in which case you're agreeing with us that Mence should be banned in the current OU meta (you bolded that sentence, not me). End of discussion.
EDIT: Edited to reflect Haunter's post below! :)
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This is not necessarily true. We might retest a few things once the metagame stabilizes, however, we're not going to drop any Uber just in the hope it balances out Mega Salamence.
Bottom line is: unbanning broken things to check other broken things has never been our policy and will never be.
These checks are far from reliable as most are either OHKO'd or 2HKO'd easily with little to no effort. Sacrificing pokemon to get a check in safely is not part of the game. That isn't a standard and shouldn't be a standard on any archetype played on any given day. So the logic you're describing is that the game should revolve around one extremely strong powerful central figure and nothing else and if we don't agree with this we should stop playing? That's just shunning a community that wants to play this game without the burden of dealing with something that is obviously unhealthy and way too strong in the tier in a metagame that isn't Ubers. There's strong stuff in OU but a majority of them have enough flaws present for many to consider that it won't be a huge constraint on teambuilding. Most of your regular birdspam counters don't work here as well. As mentioned they are either OHKO'd or 2HKO'd on various sets. Too many sets to account for, too many variations within those sets on top of the bulk and power M-Mence provides.
More like 99%. If you're going to suggest keeping it in OU at least give a decent argument as to why instead of saying you just have to sack something or that if you don't want to deal with broken mence then don't play pokemon.
Also, yesterday when you were liking all of the posts about keeping mega salamence your profile picture was a shiny mega salamence. I noticed you changed it before posting that. Totally not biased at all. lol.
I think the way XY handled bans last year shows an indication to how it will be handled again in ORAS:
Quickban: M-Gengar, M-Kangaskan
These Pokemon were just ridiculous, had very few flaws and led to crazy over-centralisation.
Suspect test with overwhelming majority: M-Lucario (99% ban lol), (Genesect)
After the 'obviously broken' Pokemon were banned, these ran rampant. They had flaws, but were overshadowed by it's ability to wreck things too easily.
Somewhat 'controversial' bans: Aegislash, M-Mawille
These bans were handled more carefully (a 'no Aegislash' ladder) and were more controversial since they were 'more overpowered' in the upper ladder leading to other players questioning the ban.
I believe that the existence of scarf Greninja and that every Ferrothorn and Skarmory is running shed shell (to escape from the M-Salamence + Magnezone core) is an indication of the 'crazy over-centralisation' that the 'Quickban' Pokemon showed. Unlike XY, we have had more than enough time to experience M-Salamence's demolition and I think many people can agree that the metagame is very unhealthy right now due to its presence.
TL;DR: Quickban M-Salamence
Quickban: M-Gengar, M-Kangaskan
These Pokemon were just ridiculous, had very few flaws and led to crazy over-centralisation.
Suspect test with overwhelming majority: M-Lucario (99% ban lol), (Genesect)
After the 'obviously broken' Pokemon were banned, these ran rampant. They had flaws, but were overshadowed by it's ability to wreck things too easily.
Somewhat 'controversial' bans: Aegislash, M-Mawille
These bans were handled more carefully (a 'no Aegislash' ladder) and were more controversial since they were 'more overpowered' in the upper ladder leading to other players questioning the ban.
I believe that the existence of scarf Greninja and that every Ferrothorn and Skarmory is running shed shell (to escape from the M-Salamence + Magnezone core) is an indication of the 'crazy over-centralisation' that the 'Quickban' Pokemon showed. Unlike XY, we have had more than enough time to experience M-Salamence's demolition and I think many people can agree that the metagame is very unhealthy right now due to its presence.
TL;DR: Quickban M-Salamence
This hydreigon moves. So its more awesome. Anyway, I wouldn't mind it getting banned (i play battle spot more anyway), but that i would be happy to have it stay in OU and that it is actually a game thing to have to sacrifice a poke to get i safely. You have to make risks to play pokemon, and thats just part of it.(EDIT: Apparently CB Adamant Mamo can OHKO Non-bulky variants with Ice Shard)
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Unless I was mistaken, what was causing people to give you grief was your general denial of objective proof. Also, I guarantee that if you try and make yourself out to be a victim your point will never get across.
What? there are COUNTLESS alternatives. Mega Zard X, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile are just the first 3 to come to mind. Throw in wallbreakers and the list gets longer. Why aren't they used? Because the opportunity cost is NOT being able to use Mega Salamence. That's usually a huge sign of overcentralization.
Raw power and speed aren't the only thing that determine whether or not something is broken and ban-worthy. Heck if Mega Salamence's only viable set was Return / Earthquake / Substitute / Dragon Dance, we might honestly not have a problem. However, like Mega Lucario, it's the fact that it has multiple, viable sets with very few good overlapping checks causing problems for anyone trying to deal with MegaMence.
The reason why people give you grief for this is because Smogon has historically had something exactly like you proposed. When the XY ladder first came out, you could use Mega Khan, Mega Luke, Mega Gengar, heck I think even Mega Blaze was allowed (it was a little before my time so I may be wrong about Mega Chicken). Sound familiar? It's pretty much what you've been constantly proposing. So, what happened? They did not interact the way you think they would, and we ended up in a stale tier where an incredibly small number of threats ruled the tier. Adding that list to ORAS would be almost identical because ORAS isn't enough of a shift. All we really got are some new megas, Megas that, with the exception of 2 Stall megas, are pretty much always inferior choices to the ones we've already banned, so they'd be swapped out for the previously banned Megas, and BOOM: we revert back to an almost exact replica of the original XY tier with the addition of 1 more offensive Mega. You say that you can't be denied this, but if anything this is the one point you've made where we have historical evidence can be used to show what your proposal would cause. What I'm stating isn't an just an opinion. It's a conclusion based on historical evidence, something strong enough where if you can't back up your counterargument with historical evidence of your own, you will look like a fool. I say this for your own sake: unless you can back up this claim with real evidence, stop saying that an "unlocked ORAS" would fix the overcentralization problem. Also remember that you can have an overcentralized tier consisting of MULTIPLE overcentralizing threats. Ubers is an example of this.
I've already said what needs to be said about dropping old threats back into OU. As for the rest of your argument, I honestly have no idea what you're complaining about. The game has always been about trying to produce free turns for yourself in order to gain momentum. Even Stall does this by forcing switches and deterring attacks. Our issue with Mega Salamence, and many other threats that were banned, is that the user only needs 1 free turn to lay waste to a team. No one should be able to have that much of an advantage for one free turn. Not only that, Salamence can break most of his checks, which is what causes so many issues in teambuilding. Now, is Mega Salamence unbeatable? No, nothing is. GeoXern could be handled with a Scizor / Klefki core. That's not the point. The point is that Mega Sal forces us to either run the same few mons or mons that are considered gimmicks so that we might have a chance of recovering if we lose 1 free turn. In any tier not named Ubers, this is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Also, you think that Lando-T, a bulky mon used in UBERS, isn't bulky? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
The meta may adapt, but it would still be heavily centralized, and anyone not running stall who lets Mega Lucario get off 1 buff move would still be heavily punished for giving up just 1 free turn. Just because your pet style may thrive doesn't mean the rest of us who use balance or offense should have to suffer. Also, the issue isn't developing decent cores to deal with 3 individual threats that can't show up in 1 team, it's coming up with good cores that can deal with those threats and their other 5 team members that would strain teambuilding.
How can you claim there was Gen 5 bias? I read the Mega Luke and Genesect thread and I didn't see any of this so-called bias. I know no one who wants them back in the tier more than half a year after they were banned, so you can't say there's somehow some magic bias that keeps them banned. I honestly think you need to play more offense because you seem to be incredibly subjective. Latias and Zapdos aren't bulky? LATIAS is not bulky? You're proposing that we need to use only pure offense or pure defense mons? This is something deep-rooted that I know I can't convince you of otherwise. Also, offense has like 10 new toys already. The issue is that 1 is a PS4, and the other 10 are Atari 2600 units in comparison. As for the pics, congrats you found a pic with two teams with 3 matching mons. This shows absolutely nothing."They were banned for a reason why bring them back? It's backward progress."
Because many of the people who voted for banning the original suspects like lucario and deoxys were doing so with a gen5 mentality still fresh in their minds. By now everyone has experienced just how offensive gen6 has become and it's been shocking, much the same as the original gen4 power up. I think everyone was trying to preserve a game where things as questionably weak as zapdos and latias should actually be able to get free switch ins. Players want to have speed AND power AND pivot ability AND enough bulk to handle the meta. Lol that's so screwy, if you want to have any defensive answers at all to the meta then you have to pay a price somewhere. You use skarm instead of landorus and you use sylveon instead of clefable and you use defensive ttar instead of terrakion.
Meanwhile, not only would defense go through its own evolutions but offense would be completely revitalized and have all kinds of toys to use instead of just 1.
This:
That is infinitely better than whatever stale OU game you're trying to preserve by banning things:
I think I've said enough addressing your points. I've only kept this up because I don't think you're trolling which others might be convinced of other wise.
Given that Haunter has just stated the Council's opinion on retesting at this point, I think we can close this argument. As for reopening ubers, drop the subject. This isn't the place and your only arguments are weak hypothetical arguments that don't address real historical evidence. Any hate you've received has been based on this subject, so for your own sake, don't bring it up.
Yes fuckin please! Mega Mence is easily one of the most broken mons to have ever been in OU throughout the generations. You have an offensive pokemon that can forego investing in its offenses for added bulk to set up right into oblivion on pokemon it has no business setting up on and rek your entire team. I would go into more detail but everything has already been touched on.
Quickban this mofo
Quickban this mofo
I'm likely going to repeat what has been said here, but I'm gonna go for it anyway.
Mega Salamence is a horribly detrimental force to ORAS OU. Due to its combination of insane power, brutal physical bulk on turn 1 and great Speed even when unboosted, as well as possessing the stats to take on a huge variety of offensive roles that royally fuck up counters to one set and access to both HP- and status recovery, this dragon literally is the metagame right now. Its mere presence renders a whole slew of Pokémon less or simply unviable and that makes the metagame stale, boring and sometimes devoid of clever strategy. When you have to run extremely obscure and/or specific builds that teammates can take care of with the greatest ease to take Mega Salamence down, you KNOW this reptile should just get the boot as quickly as possible. Nothing can deal it with reliably and there's so much stuff it partners with that can handle its checks; it's simply uncounterable.
Quickban Mega Salamence, for the love of all that is good.
Quickban Mega Salamence, for the love of all that is good.
Did I just do a timewarp backward into the Mega Khan thread or am I still in the Mega Mence one?
Doesn't matter either way. When thats your only reliable option there is something wrong.
1. We aren't banning Rayquaza (or anything) from ubers.
2. We aren't bringing down Aegislash (or anything) from ubers. More broken Pokemon means a more unbalanced metagame. I don't see why you idiots can't fathom this.
2. We aren't bringing down Aegislash (or anything) from ubers. More broken Pokemon means a more unbalanced metagame. I don't see why you idiots can't fathom this.
3. Mind your tone? Or we'll just end the discussion and pin the Facebook backlash on you. You're not helping end the circle jerk with this post, only furthering it.
People keep bringing up how you shouldn't have to sack things to deal with Mega Mence, but I'd like to point out that this is occasionally the only option heavily offensive playstyles have when it comes to checking things in general.
Still think it's a broken piece of shit, but I wanted to throw that out there.
Still think it's a broken piece of shit, but I wanted to throw that out there.
I know that's supposed to sound like a disincentive, but I'm sure at least half of the people posting in the thread would totally take that bullet if it meant not waiting 6-9 days for Mence to get banned.
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