Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[mad0ka]

So since this hasn't been brought up before: LC is modeled after Nintendo's LC metagame, namely from Stadium, the last time it was officially made by Nintendo. However, now with the PGL tour, mechanics have been changed. Instead of only being able to play with level 5 mons, the game automatically changes the level to level 5 regardless of its actual level, for example. Jac and I alongside some others were wondering now that Nintendo has changed the gameplay, should Smogon adapt? Not necessarily the clauses, just the mechanics.

 

[Holiday]

So since this hasn't been brought up before: LC is modeled after Nintendo's LC metagame, namely from Stadium, the last time it was officially made by Nintendo. However, now with the PGL tour, mechanics have been changed. Instead of only being able to play with level 5 mons, the game automatically changes the level to level 5 regardless of its actual level, for example. Jac and I alongside some others were wondering now that Nintendo has changed the gameplay, should Smogon adapt? Not necessarily the clauses, just the mechanics.

As in freeing stuff like Sludge Wave Gastly? All for it.

This is actually a good point. Do we adapt to PGL Mechanics, the newest entry and "rule set" to LC's history? I'm sure there's other stuff I missed when but SW Gastly is just an example. Really any moves that were free in Lvl 10 LC and beyond that are legal, abilities should be allowed with given moves.

 

[doomsday doink]

As in freeing stuff like Sludge Wave Gastly? All for it.

This is actually a good point. Do we adapt to PGL Mechanics, the newest entry and "rule set" to LC's history? I'm sure there's other stuff I missed when but SW Gastly is just an example. Really any moves that were free in Lvl 10 LC and beyond that are legal, abilities should be allowed with given moves.

BRAVE BIRD RUFFLET FUCK YAH

 

[Merritt]

Part of the whole idea of playing on the simulators like PS is that it mirrors the cartridges as closely as possible, as in you can play the same game both on PS and on an actual game. It's not possible on the cartridges to have a level 5 Brave Bird Rufflet, and it's unlikely that it'll become an official battling option (Enter the Dragon Type certainly didn't).

While I'd love to have so many things legal (hey, Analytic Porygon might be cool) unless we can play it on cartridge I oppose it.

no ruffles rip :c

 

[Rowan]

So since this hasn't been brought up before: LC is modeled after Nintendo's LC metagame, namely from Stadium, the last time it was officially made by Nintendo. However, now with the PGL tour, mechanics have been changed. Instead of only being able to play with level 5 mons, the game automatically changes the level to level 5 regardless of its actual level, for example. Jac and I alongside some others were wondering now that Nintendo has changed the gameplay, should Smogon adapt? Not necessarily the clauses, just the mechanics.

Smogon OU singles is based on a challenge mode in the game where the levels are kept at level 100 and not changed at all, the Pokemon are just kept like they are. That's why Smogon OU is 6v6 at level 100 not 3v3 at level 50. LC 6v6 is based on the same challenge mode, where the mons are just kept as they are, it's impossible to reduce the mons down to level 5 in cartridge without it being a specific 3v3 challenge mode. So yeah, basically not advocating a change since it's impossible in-cartridge. I don't think I/macle or any smogon senior staff will shift from this view.

If anyone wants to discuss this more feel free to shoot me a vm, but would rather not use this thread for this discussion

 

[Shrug]

THESIS STATEMENT FOR CONTROVERSAL, UNLIKELY-YET-CORRECT WALL OF TEXT
So i'm generally a congenial user, but there is a presence in our metagame which rankles me, and it is thus: fucking abra. My hatred for abra is that of a thousand suns. It is the most AIDS part of this metagame, and i will try to elucidate why.

ARGUMENTS AND COROLLARIES TO THESIS VIDE SUPRA
First off: it is essentially playing with 7 mons. The purpose of Abra (generally) is to apply fast pressure to an opposition team. As with most fast strong special sweepers (abra is one of both the fastest and strongest), there is an opportunity cost: abra's frailness. However, that opportunity cost is mitigated by a specific item: focus sash. As you're trying to outspeed and pop shit with abra, it stands to reason if you are outspeed and thus hit, you (the abra) should be dying pretty easily. however, that is impossible as sash exists. you can be faster (prio counts too) and get that mon in, but you will be likely be Ko'd due to the nature of speed and frailty - the faster you are the less hits you take, in general. the counter to this is "other similar mons can use focus sash!" However, those sashes are breakable through conscious plays on your side: getting rocks up, using weather, etc. They provide a subgame that actually adds skill, as opposed to the brainless concept of 7 mon abra.

Additionally, abra promotes 50/50 bullshit. When you chose to set up in pokemon, you're aware risk is involved - your mon can be weakened, die, etc. This is especially apparent when you set up across from one another - say a timb v timb mirror. now lets say one timb has a fs abra behind it and the other does not. the timburr with focus sash abra is incentivized to go for a 50 / 50 war - the timburr wins the game for its team if it pulls of the bu war win, and doesnt lose (bc of focus sash abra) when it does not. The counterargument is succinct: how is this different than a timb v timb mirror when one is backed by spritz and the other is not? Because this is one example - spritzee behind timburr, making it an acceptable risk to be killed by the other timburr in pursuit of a sweep, is the product of good teambuilding and situational awareness. Abra does this for waaay more mons than just timburr - and can be used as a blanket check to a lot of things on the same team, meaning luck based shit can be forced all over the field.

The normal offense-checks to abra, listed in the lc room, are like: multihit moves, scarfmons, stunky (and other hit-taking counters), prio. Aside from counters, the problem is getting those things in. assuming your abra user is a functional human, he has brought abra in ("lolol abra is frail and gotta keep sash!!" is refuted with lc = lots of vturn; you can get doubles; after kills) on one of the tons of mons it threatens and is proceeding to menace that eviofoo or whatever. now, picture being on a short, very thin object (gangsterish 's penis, if you must) and trying to balance. That's getting your offensive check in. Trying to get your pawn in to sucker? dance around HP fight. your fletch need that acro to bring it to sash? shit dude dont let it get hit with psychic which ohko's after rocks. is your big dweble going to rock blast it? have fun getting ohko'd by psychic and not outrunning ever. then once you've gotten your scarfer or prio mon in it has to live an abra hit to hit it twice to ko, which is hard due to the inherent frailty of most lc scarfers and prio users. [box helpfully provided for hyperspecific strawman counterexamples]. The whole getting around and into abra by use of coverage vs. psychic guessing games is mostly luck and bullshit, particularly the part where you need to win the "get something in battle" subgame to get the first hit while it kills you then outspeed or prio again to kill - not even counting a switchout, as if brought down to sash it wont die to rocks - so yeah.

A weird thing i discovered (w/ help from Celestavian ) is the fact Abra's common "counters" (meaning fat switchins) are ravaged by LO with specific coverage. The paragon abra counter is stunky:

240 SpA Life Orb Abra Hidden Power Ground vs. 16 HP / 188 SpD Eviolite Stunky: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
is 2ho'd by hp ground if running absdaddy's stunky set (generally considered to be the best set for it). from there you enter into some dank sucker punch predictions - you can sub while he suckers and kill your counter, you can switch while he suckers, you can hp again as he pursuits and KO - or you can be 50/50 fucked yourself.

Pump large is good too right:
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 212 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and when u, damage roll expert, know it's lo:
68 Atk Pumpkaboo-Super Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

who likes some 1/16 rolls? Shrug does yeah bby

PoryGONE:
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
you cant get fatter than that w/ pory and you're dying anyway.

counterargument: lo is killed easy in 1 turn by the shit sash gets 2 hits against. But how do you know if it's sash or LO? you cant, so you pick your easy LO donked counter like Pory or your sash fucked offensive mon, that's another 50/50.


SUMMATION:
Abra should go because it:
- restricts teambuilding: offensive teams need to outspeed it twice to get past focus sash, making the concept of one fast sweeper untenable; defensive teams need some way to deal with the hammer power of LO as most of its "answers" are p fucked by its main STAB aside from Stunky which CAN be broken (hp ground sucks though I'll admit).
- Causes / incentivizes a dickload of 50/50s:
1. between mons setting up vs each other
2. in getting mons in to outspeed
3. with sucker punch and pursuits
4. to find out which set it's running
- Because it has two shots to attain its purpose, taking away the opportunity cost of playing a fast powerful frail sweeper as it isnt fucking frail if it lives literally everything (onix rock blast?? shut the fuck up)

NOTES:
- I know that some of these arguments can only apply to one set - the sash bullshit doesnt apply to the uberpowerful LO stuff, and sash isnt getting through pory - but as an opposing user you cannot know what set the abra is running for certain until you see damage or the sash is revealed. It's like greninja in the sense where you get your shit in somehow but if you've guess wrong about the set you've lost a mon anyway.
- If anyone thinks 50/50s are fun you're probably one of those people who comes to lc fallaciously believing lc is OMG SPEEDTIES LOLOL when it isnt, and 50/50 fans can simulate trials for my stats project by flipping coins again and again and predicting the outcome.

CONCLUDING OPINIONS THAT SHOULD NOT BE USED TO CRITIQUE MAIN POINT
- you know you have a problem when you're like "how to beat abra" in chat and homie Cheek Pouch is like "oh just vwave it with gunk and die" ay yes just sac your gunk because no switchins exist that's fine
- sashbra makes offense unfun to play for me; i hate being like "ok gotta get 3 / 4 mons that go first somehow so this thing doesnt fuck me if i let 1 of them die because i need 2 hits" or else running stunky. If you're going to respond with "funness is not a criteria" refer to this section heading

ATTEMPT TO POSITIVELY FRAME DISCUSSION
SO i'm down with discussion and debate about this stuff, just make sure to keep it to the confines of this argument / related ones. "Abra isnt too strong!" will be ignored and mocked; i didnt say it was "too strong". also "we cant ban abra, it's part of the game!" will be laughed at as well, as it's a poor argument too. Finally, "shrug u suck me <a gooduser> can beat abra ez" is shitty too as i didnt say it was impossible to beat i was more pointing out how shitty it makes things rather than its pure strength. But if you guys want to debate points and stuff, go ahead!

JUSTIFICATION:
lc has been dead recently it hurts me to see these forums not kicking, i'd even take some more mambo shitsets to analyze. I love lc, i want to see it get better, and AIDSbra is the sickness. thanks

 

[mad0ka]

no

 

[fatty]

Shrug while i agree that abra is definitely one of the defining aspects of the metagame, a very strong mon, and an annoyance, i do not think it is broken or even bad for the metagame. it is just that, an annoyance. just like mienfoo, sturdyjuice, and knock off. these are things in the metagame that are annoying because you can't deal with them by traditional means and need to put extra thought into your moves in order to come out on top against them. with that said, abra is not what's making the metagame "stale". the lack of a good boosting move, or even lo on the most common set, means that abra is not going to be sweeping, and it is obviously not an unbreakable wall, so i fail to see how it is restricting teambuilding or the metagame too much. you don't have to go to obscene measures to counter it, and all it takes is one hit on it and breaking past it is a non issue. this makes it more of a second thought when it comes to teambuilding, for me at least. if i'm abusing a set up sweeper, why not add another so that abra can only reliably beat one? or add a pursuit user to ensure i don't have to deal with it? this is teambuilding 101 - lure / weaken counters to open up the opportunity for another pokemon to flourish. this also makes me want to address you comment about offense having a tough time vs abra. yes, you will not be able to pull off a sweep right of the bat, but if you're truly running offense, with multiple win conditions, what do you care? as soon as abra's sash is used up trying to counter one mon, the opponent has just opened themselves for one of your other offensive mons to do work. this is much less of a hindrance than, let's say, balanced, which streamlines a goal to maybe one or two win cons, meaning the abra user can just conserve abra for that specific win con.

i'd also just like to address a couple other things as well individually:

- abra is not like playing with 7 pokemon. i don't get the logic behind this at all, but whatever. in fact, it could be argued that abra absolutely needing to stay at full health to make use of sash means you're playing with 5 mons for the majority of the match, literally not being able to switch in on anything.

- the whole "it's two different sets share completelely different counters" thing doesn't work here. abra's still running the same set except different items, meaning lo is just going to smack fat shit harder. it's not a case of "oh i guessed wrong, now i lose". no, if you get nuked by lo psychic, guess what? you just found out that your sweeper has nothing to fear for setting up. if you're running a more defensive team, you're bound to and better have at least two mons that can take a hit and probably ko back due to abra's frailty. both sets are still going to have problems with fat mons, pursuit, and fast mons / priority.

- your mentioning of 50/50s when dealing with abra is an entirely misplaced use of the term. dealing with it comes down to good plays and good teambuilding. yeah, if you have something like scarf pawniard, you're going to have to be careful for fear of hp fighting. this just means you have to pivot and only bring in pawniard when the time is right, just like most switch-ins in lc.

- lastly, let's not pretend hp ground is a thing. you're going to risk not ohkoing pawn to kind of but not really beat a rare-ass stunky?

i, for one, don't think the metagame needs much changing. it is in a very balanced state, and a lot of the times a couple strong, yet not overwhelming, mons at the top of the metagame helps to ensure a healthy competitive metagame.

 

[Holiday]

All you have to do to beat abra

Is to

Vacuum Wave

With

Your

Croagunk

Bitch

 

[Rowan]

I agree with fatty man, it's definitely a top tier mon, but really it's not something so amazing that it is bad for the metagame.

Vs. offense, like fatty said, it can stop one pokemon really. Offense is a playstyle designed to wear down counters, and running for example 2 wincons can easily beat abra, and can sometimes take advantage of the fact that the opponent is using abra to check things. Waterspam cores are amazing at this, e.g. Carv+Tirt, Binacle+Tirt etc. Offense will break through abra, usually at the cost of sacking something, but offense is a playstyle necessary to sack things.

Against bulkier offense/semistall, abra has a hard time as well, as without LO it's not very good at breaking through bulkier cores, especially things like PorySpritz, abra actually doesn't do very well here. LO does have a nice time against these teams, but that can be said about any wallbreaker (e.g. skrelp, vulpix) but because it's so frail priority it's easy to take it down, sometimes you need to 1v1 but if you're running a bulky team, lots of things can take at least a hit

Vs. balance is where abra shines tbh, if you have 1 main wincon, and some pivots/walls. however again it's not like it can rip apart the team, a LO one might be able to wallbreak early, but then it's revealed that it's not sash and therefore your sweeper can win. Sash vs. balance does get very annoying, but I don't think to the point where the abra team has such an advantage. You still have walls to take it on, it's just harder to lure out and damage. However, a good balance team should always take this into account. If you have 1 set-up sweeper, e.g. Omanyte, Tirtouga, Scraggy, you need to build with something that can take abra out, as fatty said teambuilding 101. Pursuit, Scarf Gothita, are good ways, most balance teams should include some sort of wallbreaker, and of course priority, (just vwave with your gunk man). also, 2 set up sweepers isn't uncommon in balance, one acting as a wallbreaker the other as a sweeper e.g. tirt+carv and then a 4-mon defensive core. That sort of team wouldn't have too much trouble with abra

basically offense deals with abra easily, bulky offense/semistall deal with it less easily but still okay, and balance should prepare for it more otherwise it's a shit team

But yeah, abra is a fucking boss and definitely top-tier mon

 

[tcr]

I disagree fatty, while Abra might just be "annoying" compared to things like Swirlix's blatant brokenness, I think that its unhealthy to the meta. The things that Abra restricts heavily outweigh the things that it brings to the table by being allowed in the tier. For one it has an oppressive speed and actually very high special attack to back it up, meaning that it CAN sweep mid-late game with the correct support. Most of its counters turn into 1-2hkoes simply without an item, which is very feasible to do. Hell, you could even run Knock Off Abra to lure in Vullaby / Munch yourself. Stunky loses to Diglett, something I have paired with Abra before to beat mons like Pawniard and other steel-types. While it can sweep given the right circumstances, its utility mostly lies in its ability to be one of the safest revenge killers in the game.

One argument I think can be made is the "funness factor," if that is still a rule (iirc it used to be a criteria in suspect tests as a reason for why it might be banned or not). Dedicating a slot on your team solely for Abra is kinda dumb. In the last few days I've used Munchlax, Vullaby, and Stunky a couple times all on the same team to see which fit better with my team. Stunky was subpar and one of the only things it did was trap Abra, other than that I found it to be deadweight. Vullaby is nice but can straight up lose if it switches in on a Dgleam. Munchlax was also ok, however on teams with Abra I literally have to save these solely for when Abra comes in, because if they get Knocked Off they have the potential to straight up lose. Its kinda hard to explain, but abra is just unfun to play against, 19 speed is awful to play against with its SpA, combined with the fact that it always takes 2 hits to beat, its annoying as fuck and unfun to have to build around. Fuck abra, fuck mienfoo

 

[blarajan]

Shrug

you have a retarded stats project

 

[Shrug]

Blara i wasn't serious thatd be fucking awful, almost as awful as fucking 5 more focus sash Magic guard fuckmons

Also fatty Rowan good responses and shit, I'll hit rebuttals up when I get home

 

[gangsterish]

THESIS STATEMENT FOR CONTROVERSAL, UNLIKELY-YET-CORRECT WALL OF TEXT
So i'm generally a congenial user, but there is a presence in our metagame which rankles me, and it is thus: fucking abra. My hatred for abra is that of a thousand suns. It is the most AIDS part of this metagame, and i will try to elucidate why.

ARGUMENTS AND COROLLARIES TO THESIS VIDE SUPRA
First off: it is essentially playing with 7 mons. The purpose of Abra (generally) is to apply fast pressure to an opposition team. As with most fast strong special sweepers (abra is one of both the fastest and strongest), there is an opportunity cost: abra's frailness. However, that opportunity cost is mitigated by a specific item: focus sash. As you're trying to outspeed and pop shit with abra, it stands to reason if you are outspeed and thus hit, you (the abra) should be dying pretty easily. however, that is impossible as sash exists. you can be faster (prio counts too) and get that mon in, but you will be likely be Ko'd due to the nature of speed and frailty - the faster you are the less hits you take, in general. the counter to this is "other similar mons can use focus sash!" However, those sashes are breakable through conscious plays on your side: getting rocks up, using weather, etc. They provide a subgame that actually adds skill, as opposed to the brainless concept of 7 mon abra.

Additionally, abra promotes 50/50 bullshit. When you chose to set up in pokemon, you're aware risk is involved - your mon can be weakened, die, etc. This is especially apparent when you set up across from one another - say a timb v timb mirror. now lets say one timb has a fs abra behind it and the other does not. the timburr with focus sash abra is incentivized to go for a 50 / 50 war - the timburr wins the game for its team if it pulls of the bu war win, and doesnt lose (bc of focus sash abra) when it does not. The counterargument is succinct: how is this different than a timb v timb mirror when one is backed by spritz and the other is not? Because this is one example - spritzee behind timburr, making it an acceptable risk to be killed by the other timburr in pursuit of a sweep, is the product of good teambuilding and situational awareness. Abra does this for waaay more mons than just timburr - and can be used as a blanket check to a lot of things on the same team, meaning luck based shit can be forced all over the field.

The normal offense-checks to abra, listed in the lc room, are like: multihit moves, scarfmons, stunky (and other hit-taking counters), prio. Aside from counters, the problem is getting those things in. assuming your abra user is a functional human, he has brought abra in ("lolol abra is frail and gotta keep sash!!" is refuted with lc = lots of vturn; you can get doubles; after kills) on one of the tons of mons it threatens and is proceeding to menace that eviofoo or whatever. now, picture being on a short, very thin object (gangsterish 's penis, if you must) and trying to balance. That's getting your offensive check in. Trying to get your pawn in to sucker? dance around HP fight. your fletch need that acro to bring it to sash? shit dude dont let it get hit with psychic which ohko's after rocks. is your big dweble going to rock blast it? have fun getting ohko'd by psychic and not outrunning ever. then once you've gotten your scarfer or prio mon in it has to live an abra hit to hit it twice to ko, which is hard due to the inherent frailty of most lc scarfers and prio users. [box helpfully provided for hyperspecific strawman counterexamples]. The whole getting around and into abra by use of coverage vs. psychic guessing games is mostly luck and bullshit, particularly the part where you need to win the "get something in battle" subgame to get the first hit while it kills you then outspeed or prio again to kill - not even counting a switchout, as if brought down to sash it wont die to rocks - so yeah.

A weird thing i discovered (w/ help from Celestavian ) is the fact Abra's common "counters" (meaning fat switchins) are ravaged by LO with specific coverage. The paragon abra counter is stunky:

240 SpA Life Orb Abra Hidden Power Ground vs. 16 HP / 188 SpD Eviolite Stunky: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
is 2ho'd by hp ground if running absdaddy's stunky set (generally considered to be the best set for it). from there you enter into some dank sucker punch predictions - you can sub while he suckers and kill your counter, you can switch while he suckers, you can hp again as he pursuits and KO - or you can be 50/50 fucked yourself.

Pump large is good too right:
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 212 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and when u, damage roll expert, know it's lo:
68 Atk Pumpkaboo-Super Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

who likes some 1/16 rolls? Shrug does yeah bby

PoryGONE:
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
you cant get fatter than that w/ pory and you're dying anyway.

counterargument: lo is killed easy in 1 turn by the shit sash gets 2 hits against. But how do you know if it's sash or LO? you cant, so you pick your easy LO donked counter like Pory or your sash fucked offensive mon, that's another 50/50.


SUMMATION:
Abra should go because it:
- restricts teambuilding: offensive teams need to outspeed it twice to get past focus sash, making the concept of one fast sweeper untenable; defensive teams need some way to deal with the hammer power of LO as most of its "answers" are p fucked by its main STAB aside from Stunky which CAN be broken (hp ground sucks though I'll admit).
- Causes / incentivizes a dickload of 50/50s:
1. between mons setting up vs each other
2. in getting mons in to outspeed
3. with sucker punch and pursuits
4. to find out which set it's running
- Because it has two shots to attain its purpose, taking away the opportunity cost of playing a fast powerful frail sweeper as it isnt fucking frail if it lives literally everything (onix rock blast?? shut the fuck up)

NOTES:
- I know that some of these arguments can only apply to one set - the sash bullshit doesnt apply to the uberpowerful LO stuff, and sash isnt getting through pory - but as an opposing user you cannot know what set the abra is running for certain until you see damage or the sash is revealed. It's like greninja in the sense where you get your shit in somehow but if you've guess wrong about the set you've lost a mon anyway.
- If anyone thinks 50/50s are fun you're probably one of those people who comes to lc fallaciously believing lc is OMG SPEEDTIES LOLOL when it isnt, and 50/50 fans can simulate trials for my stats project by flipping coins again and again and predicting the outcome.

CONCLUDING OPINIONS THAT SHOULD NOT BE USED TO CRITIQUE MAIN POINT
- you know you have a problem when you're like "how to beat abra" in chat and homie Cheek Pouch is like "oh just vwave it with gunk and die" ay yes just sac your gunk because no switchins exist that's fine
- sashbra makes offense unfun to play for me; i hate being like "ok gotta get 3 / 4 mons that go first somehow so this thing doesnt fuck me if i let 1 of them die because i need 2 hits" or else running stunky. If you're going to respond with "funness is not a criteria" refer to this section heading

ATTEMPT TO POSITIVELY FRAME DISCUSSION
SO i'm down with discussion and debate about this stuff, just make sure to keep it to the confines of this argument / related ones. "Abra isnt too strong!" will be ignored and mocked; i didnt say it was "too strong". also "we cant ban abra, it's part of the game!" will be laughed at as well, as it's a poor argument too. Finally, "shrug u suck me <a gooduser> can beat abra ez" is shitty too as i didnt say it was impossible to beat i was more pointing out how shitty it makes things rather than its pure strength. But if you guys want to debate points and stuff, go ahead!

JUSTIFICATION:
lc has been dead recently it hurts me to see these forums not kicking, i'd even take some more mambo shitsets to analyze. I love lc, i want to see it get better, and AIDSbra is the sickness. thanks

I have measured it myself. Also Phanpy counters abra.
With Keith's point about abra: sashbra is dumb. Does it break the meta? Not at all. Does it take away a lot of strategy? Yes. My problems don't lie with it being overpowered, because it isn't. But sashbra should be guaranteed to take out a mon most games. Against standard sets, abra really shines with energy ball, hidden power fighting, and psychic. Abra does not dominate games, but it decreases the enjoyment of games. The argument against abra is a lot like the one against fletch, It makes the meta less fun. I do not believe abra should be banned, but it is important to define what deserves banning or inspection. Should we just ban because something is broken? Or should we also ban something if it makes the meta game less enjoyable?

 

[Celestavian]

Honestly, I'm on the fence about the whole thing, and I think with the way our suspect system is set up, Abra will never be able to get a suspect like I think it deserves. On the one hand, Abra is perhaps the best Pokemon at stealing momentum. Forget VoltTurn, that's nowhere near as good at taking control of the game as having a Pokemon immune to death while it's at full health with massive Speed and power to back it up forcing out anything it gets in on. Putting Sash Abra on your team gives you a massive advantage against offense teams that rely on a sweeper, and LO Abra decimates stall teams that lack Stunky or Munchlax. Confusing one for the other is also a problem, because LO Abra gets the 2HKOes that Sash Abra misses on Pokemon such as Porygon, Vullaby, and Pumpkaboo-XL. I always feel when I'm building teams that Abra restricts teambuilding more than other Pokemon, even something like Mienfoo or Fletchling, because it is near impossible to switch into without using garbage like Stunky.

And yet, I rarely have problems when facing Abra. Abra is not some immovable object that is at full HP all the time, and my opponents rarely play conservatively with Abra as they should. With people forgoing Protect on Abra it has become even easier to pop the Sash than it used to be. Pokemon such as Timburr and Croagunk that Abra should be able to revenge kill effortlessly it fears because they have ways of ruining its Sash before going down. There are quite a few ways of getting around Abra, and you aren't required to use Stunky to do so. The only time I ever have trouble with Abra is when I mistakenly think Abra is running a Sash when it has a Life Orb, and all of a sudden my bulky switch-in is 2HKOed. Even though that can be annoying, it then signals to me that my Scarf user or priority sweeper can plow through it without trouble.

As a result of the above, I am unsure as to whether or not removing Abra from the metagame is beneficial, and this is where I believe our suspect testing system fails: it doesn't remove the suspect from the metagame to see what it is like without having to play with that suspect. I can't find any posts about why this is so from the tier leaders who have implemented this policy, but I feel like it has worked for the other suspects, and I am not criticizing the system from Misdreavus back to Tangela and Yanma. Every Pokemon banned in that period was a cut above the rest; in a sense, they were "obviously" broken. I know there was some debate about Misdreavus, Yanma, and Meditite being banned and some calls to test them again, but you can't deny these Pokemon were above the rest in the metagames they were allowed in. Abra is not like that, which is why I feel there is such a stigma against banning it. Even I myself feel like banning Abra is silly sometimes just because it isn't the "best" Pokemon in the metagame. That is why suspecting Abra while keeping it available to use will not work, because we have already laddered with Abra for so long that we are blind to the idea of it possibly being uncompetitive or restricting teambuilding. I feel that if we were to suspect Abra, we would have to remove it from the meta to get an accurate picture of its effects, because that isn't as clear as the other suspects.

The main criticism of this I have heard is that the metagame does not have enough time to settle when we remove a suspect, and thus we have no idea if the metagame will be better weeks or months down the line. To that I say, why is no testing better than "inadequate" testing? Our current suspect system relies on theorymonning to determine what a metagame will look like after a certain suspect is banned. Once again, there's no official policy post that I can find that explains the reasoning for this system, so I don't know if what I am saying is correct or not. It seems to me that our suspect test system focuses on whether a Pokemon is outright broken, rather than if its removal will make a better overall metagame. Abra isn't broken, I can tell you that, but yet I don't believe "brokenness" is the only metric we should use. Abra has presented itself as a problem in ways that are hard to define, and may or may not be unhealthy for the metagame. However, given that it has been discussed on multiple occasions as being problematic and this topic coming up multiple times throughout both XY and BW, I think perhaps it's time to suspect Abra and see whether it really is so restrictive of teambuilding that it should go.

 

[Merritt]

Suspect ladders are useful for a short-term picture of the metagame, but in Abra's case I'm not sure entirely how useful a suspect ladder will be. When you reintroduce a mon back into the meta, a suspect ladder is most helpful, as the reintroduction will pretty much always shake things up. In a similar vein, having a suspect ladder for an incredibly dominant/very used mon is also informative, as it gives a picture of what the meta would look like without it.

Mienfoo would be a good example of a Pokemon where a suspect ladder would be helpful (not saying Mienfoo should be suspected). Mienfoo is so common and has an effect on the usability of many mons that a ladder without it (once you get past the starter teams) would look very different. Similarly a Fletchling suspect ladder would result in very different teams.

I don't feel this is the case for Abra. Abra isn't common to the point of absurdity so that teams would inherently look and perform differently. It also doesn't really make things more or less viable by itself. It should be keeping down fighting and poison types, but Timburr, Croagunk, and Skrelp all maintain their viability well and Mienfoo is, well, Mienfoo. If anything it discourages frailish but powerful setup sweepers, which I'm not sure I really want tons of, and are still fairly common with Abra.

While suspect ladders aren't a bad idea, I'm not sure it'd be that informative in the case of Abra.

 

[tcr]

Suspect ladders are useful for a short-term picture of the metagame, but in Abra's case I'm not sure entirely how useful a suspect ladder will be. When you reintroduce a mon back into the meta, a suspect ladder is most helpful, as the reintroduction will pretty much always shake things up. In a similar vein, having a suspect ladder for an incredibly dominant/very used mon is also informative, as it gives a picture of what the meta would look like without it.

Mienfoo would be a good example of a Pokemon where a suspect ladder would be helpful (not saying Mienfoo should be suspected). Mienfoo is so common and has an effect on the usability of many mons that a ladder without it (once you get past the starter teams) would look very different. Similarly a Fletchling suspect ladder would result in very different teams.

I don't feel this is the case for Abra. Abra isn't common to the point of absurdity so that teams would inherently look and perform differently. It also doesn't really make things more or less viable by itself. It should be keeping down fighting and poison types, but Timburr, Croagunk, and Skrelp all maintain their viability well and Mienfoo is, well, Mienfoo. If anything it discourages frailish but powerful setup sweepers, which I'm not sure I really want tons of, and are still fairly common with Abra.

While suspect ladders aren't a bad idea, I'm not sure it'd be that informative in the case of Abra.

1) are you saying that Abra isn't a common enough Pokemon to significantly impact the metagame? Thus far Abra has a usage of

| 3 | Abra | 32.755% |

in LC OU.
Abra is pretty dominant. This isn't like just picking a random Pokemon such as Amaura and saying "its unhealthy, ban it."

2) I don't think you quite get how suspecting works. No one cares what the meta is like directly after something is banned, if something else pops up in its place, that Pokemon is then banned. Pokemon aren't kept into a tier to keep other broken mons in check, otherwise things like Murkrow would still be in the tier for its ability to checks things like Misdreavus and Meditite. If the pokemon in scrutiny is unhealthy for the metagame as deemed by the community its going to be suspected, regardless of its impact after its disappearance.

With that out of the way, to put into perspective in the best way I can my point of view, I believe that Abra is in the same lines as Yanma was back in Tangela+Yanma. Yanma was banned mostly because of its ability to just run Compoundeyes+Hypnosis along with U-turn, gaining free momentum and crippling 1-2 Pokemon along the way before it died, IF it died. Abra does something similar, which Celestavian talked upon. It basically gives teams free momentum, which can quite honestly make or break the game depending on how it is used. Yes, it is a revenge killer and will never switch in. However, once its in against normal teams its guaranteed SOMETHING, be it a OHKO, 2HKO, whatever. Unless your team is basically Ferroseed / Vullaby / Spritzee / Porygon / filler / filler, you will be hardpressed to find a safe switchin, providing correct prediction. That's the part that I find the worst, is that its so safe and forces a ton of stress onto the other player. You can say "get good" all you want, I don't think that prediction should be a precedent for determining a Pokemon's healthiness, as it basically turns away from the tried and true "risk v reward" and instead creates coin flips.

 

[mad0ka]

i dont really see how 33% usage means it has a significant impact on the meta

 

[tcr]

As far as I know, the stats are 1650 stats, meaning that its highly unlikely that people just chose Abra because its first in teambuilder. However, I can't say for certain, as that list was the only LC OU stats I could find, the rest was PGL Little Cup which has no bearing here. If Antar could help clarify that would be lovely!

E: As I thought, the stats were 1630

| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Mienfoo | 47.97361% | 19258 | 27.506% | 16328 | 29.413% |
| 2 | Pawniard | 33.69428% | 12741 | 18.198% | 9846 | 17.736% |
| 3 | Abra | 32.83177% | 20146 | 28.774% | 14713 | 26.504%

This is for April, the 1760 Stats have 30% listed for Abra, as 4th right below Fletchling. 1500 Stats have 31% listed, with it being 2nd in Usage. Unweighted stats have Abra at 28%, 1st in usage. So regardless if you take weighted or unweighted, highest on the ladder or lowest on the ladder, Abra maintains a solid position in usage, dominating ~30% of the ladder.

 

[Berks]

you know what beats sashbra

CORE 2 - OFFENSE:

Beams (Croagunk) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 188 Atk / 36 Def / 188 SpA / 36 SpD
Brave Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
- Gunk Shot

This core certainly has some synergy (Gunk resists Rock and Fighting, Hound beats Psychics) but its main selling point is function: shittons of priority. Some threats to Offense builds involve SashBra and set-up sweepers like DD Corph and SS Oma. Between Hound's Sucker Punch and Gunk's all the other things, these two mons provide a nice safety net for Offense if an opponent somehow sets up while still packing immediate power.

just sayin

But for reals, I gotta side with Rowan and fatty here. Priority is so easy to fit on offensive builds, it's not even funny. Abra really can be dangerous, but it isn't 'quite' as dangerous as you're making it out to be. Truly, though, it is one of those meta defining factors and I personally think it should be S rank but is realistically not so powerful or centralizing as to warrant a suspect.

 

[Antar]

H&MBerkeley

One word: Protect

 

[Berks]

H&MBerkeley

One word: Protect

okay but there's two Sucker Punches there and who the hell protects on gunk are you forizzles

 

[Melon]

Protect is becoming increasingly uncommon on Sashbra in my experiences, and even if you have it you often won't protect on Gunk.

 

[RZL]

I am just going to further this discussion by also stating that these were Abra's usage statistics in SPLC, which is presumably much more reliable as, better people typically play.

14 | Abra | 21 | 13.8% | 61.9%

This is much lower than on the LC ladder, and Abra is usually used fewer times at high level competitive play than on the ladder. I believe this is only true due to the fact that a Safety Net is much better on Hyper-Offense, or typical laddering teams, than in Bulky Offense which is mainly used in big tournaments.

Abra is also at the top of the teambuilder so, typically clicking it is easy. I call subterfuge.

 

[Rowan]

For anyone planning to participate in the LC tournament over Wi-Fi this week
I have a question about how to build a team with a limited selection of Pokemon

I have

Chinchou
Abra
Houndour
Mankey
Taillow
Shellder
Slowpoke
Omanyte
Piplup
Torchic
Bulbasaur
Carvanha
Zigzagoon
Totodile

Hi welcome to LC - this question is probably more suited to the simple question, simple answer thread (also stickied). As for your question, it seems the options you have aren't the best at synergising and some mons aren't that great at all. I'd probably go for some kind of balanced team with Chinchou, bulbasaur, and houndour in a FWG core and sash abra just for a check to lot of things (since you don't have many options), and idk about the rest. Be sure to check out smogon's analyses for these mons, and use resources such as the viability rankings or teambuilding compendium on this forum