Toxapex needs to be banned. We don't need another stupid annoying pivot. It has too much bulk and too much utility option.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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This meta is dog ass because it is too overcentralizing to run a ground or psychic type. Please ban Toxapex please. I can't get away with mindlessly clicking Pheromosa's so please ban it so the meta can be great again!
In all honestly yall really need to stop complaining a build better teams lol. Yh its annoying but so is Mola but they didn't ban it there in ru. Theyre both annoying pivots with Regenerator with huge disruptive tools (wish and tspikes) Also its weak as shit so you literally switch into anything with decent bulk and get a free Substitute. And can you really call this thing broken when it's one of the reasons Zygarde usage is spiking -_-
In all honestly yall really need to stop complaining a build better teams lol. Yh its annoying but so is Mola but they didn't ban it there in ru. Theyre both annoying pivots with Regenerator with huge disruptive tools (wish and tspikes) Also its weak as shit so you literally switch into anything with decent bulk and get a free Substitute. And can you really call this thing broken when it's one of the reasons Zygarde usage is spiking -_-
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
I don't really know where the Toxapex ban hype comes from because it's really easy to take advantage of its 53 SpA, especially if it lacks Haze. It doesn't even 2HKO pokemon like Landorus and Alolan Marowak and most Taunt users beat it pretty easily (again, even Water weak pokemon like SpD Heatran beat it).
Instead of talking about pokemon that will probably get banned I'll post two of my favorite cores that you can still use after the quickbans
Instead of talking about pokemon that will probably get banned I'll post two of my favorite cores that you can still use after the quickbans
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Punch
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang / Earthquake
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Scald
- Haze
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Punch
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang / Earthquake
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Scald
- Haze
Alolan Marowak is a really good pokemon at the moment, being able to beat pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Celesteela, Pheromosa, Xurkitree, and Buzzwole. The biggest problem is that many of these pokemon can either wear down Marowak (Leech Seed Celesteela for example) or have a way to get momentum (U-Turn Phero / Koko). This is a pretty big issue combined with Stealth Rock damage, which is why Alolan Marowak often fails to shine.
Something I noticed while playing some matches was that the variety of Stealth Rock users was pretty low. Landorus, Landorus-T, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Dugtrio and Alolan Marowak are the ones I faced most often. Mantine beats 4 / 6, and with support from pokemon like Tapu Bulu, it's not that difficult to keep Stealth Rocks off the field.
Type wise this is also a nice core. Marowak takes Electric- and Grass-moves really well and Mantine's immunity to Water and Ground helps a lot. The biggest threats are obviously Rock-types (can't really switch in though) and physical wallbreakers like Bisharp and SD Aegi. I use Bonemerang on Alolan Marowak because the team I'm using this core with also has a Tapu Bulu. There's also a 3x Ghost Type core (Shadow Ball Z-Conversion Porygon Z, Alolan Marowak, Aegislash) which, while its stacks weaknesses and is quiet slow, does a great job at exploiting the Ghost weakness many teams have.
Something I noticed while playing some matches was that the variety of Stealth Rock users was pretty low. Landorus, Landorus-T, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Dugtrio and Alolan Marowak are the ones I faced most often. Mantine beats 4 / 6, and with support from pokemon like Tapu Bulu, it's not that difficult to keep Stealth Rocks off the field.
Type wise this is also a nice core. Marowak takes Electric- and Grass-moves really well and Mantine's immunity to Water and Ground helps a lot. The biggest threats are obviously Rock-types (can't really switch in though) and physical wallbreakers like Bisharp and SD Aegi. I use Bonemerang on Alolan Marowak because the team I'm using this core with also has a Tapu Bulu. There's also a 3x Ghost Type core (Shadow Ball Z-Conversion Porygon Z, Alolan Marowak, Aegislash) which, while its stacks weaknesses and is quiet slow, does a great job at exploiting the Ghost weakness many teams have.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
Dugtrio @ Custap Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Endure
- Stealth Rock
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
Dugtrio @ Custap Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Endure
- Stealth Rock
I faced this core once and got 5-0'd so I decided to build around it and it has been really successful so far. Celesteela is one of the most annoying pokemon to face, because it beats almost every pokemon that is immune to Leech Seed. Heavy Slam is really strong even without any attack investment and Flamethrower is used to get past Genesect, Ferrothorn and Skarmory. While Celesteela can annoy many Fire- and Electric-Type switchins with Leech Seed + Protect, it still risks the OHKO, so why not add Dugtrio? Dugtrio traps Heatran, Greninja, Tapu Koko, weakened Pheromosa, and a bunch of other stuff Celesteela hates. Nothing more than a pretty standard brainless Dugtrio core, but really effective nonetheless.
the meta is still quite young (only 3 days so far lol) so I can imagine quickbans happening end of November or early December.
I really do think that Arena Trap will be a problem. It's basically a slightly worse Shadow Tag, and with all the autoterrain abilities around, Dugtrio should become even more potent. If Shadow Tag was banned for removing a key element from the game, switching, limiting the opponent's options in the process, then the same goes for Dugtrio, although not to the same extent since Flying-type Pokemon and Pokemon with Levitate are immune to Arena Trap.
My first impressions are that Zygarde Complete Forme, Hoopa-Unbound, and Aegislash are either too much for the tier right now or need to go in the future. Zygarde's ridiculous bulk and its unavoidable attack, Thousand Arrows, makes it a very extremely restrictive presence. Hoopa-Unbound, in spite its poor physical defense, still has no safe switch-ins aside from Mandibuzz. I don't see Hoopa-Unbound being a healthy presence outside of a hyper offensive metagame, and even then, Hoopa-U has favourable match-ups against a number of strong special attackers. Aegislash is self-explanatory because of King's Shield and its Stance Change ability making it both a defensive and offensive threat at the same time
My first impressions are that Zygarde Complete Forme, Hoopa-Unbound, and Aegislash are either too much for the tier right now or need to go in the future. Zygarde's ridiculous bulk and its unavoidable attack, Thousand Arrows, makes it a very extremely restrictive presence. Hoopa-Unbound, in spite its poor physical defense, still has no safe switch-ins aside from Mandibuzz. I don't see Hoopa-Unbound being a healthy presence outside of a hyper offensive metagame, and even then, Hoopa-U has favourable match-ups against a number of strong special attackers. Aegislash is self-explanatory because of King's Shield and its Stance Change ability making it both a defensive and offensive threat at the same time
Has anyone else been having a problem with opponents using outrage and then being completely unaffected by the confusion status? Because I was just swept by a power construct Zygard that used that while holding leftovers and it didn't recieve the negative status at all. so is this a glitch in the program? Pretty sure it happened one other time in ORAS but I wasn't sure if I wasn't paying attention or not that time. This time I went back through the battle log and there was no negative status put on it after 2 turns of outrage it went strait into thousand wave without any chance of confusion? Its not a super huge issue, but it could cost people matches if it comes down to the wire.
Toxapex is totally setup bait for Zygarde, which imo needs to be dealt with before we even think of dealing with anything else. Dragon Dance with Sub just crushes stuff, and the Coil set isn't much worse. By the way, Twilightphoenix10, I wouldn't even bother with Outrage on Zygarde when Core Enforcer exists.
There's no way I'm seriously reading a discussion about a 45 Base Speed Ghost checking Aegislash.
What the fuck are you guys using/facing on ladder to where Alolan Marowak is your Aegislash check?
core enforcer is a special move fam
I think he means 1000 Arrows
Confusion has like a 33% chance or so to hurt you so Outrage got buffed, it seems.
A whole bunch of mega stones aren't available yet -- all of them that aren't Alola dex Pokemon, with the exception of the Kanto starter stones. Seems like they're saving them for the next games.
Hey Guys,
I just want to share my broken strategy before it gets banned. Its easy2use and easy2win.
Its basicly a 2 turn (3 turn at opportunity) set up. You get out Umbreon as safe as possible, press sub or Z-Celebreate depending on the situation and try to pass boost + sub. Then you just set up and sweep the opponents team. HP Fire is to get rid of bug and grass types faster, (hp flying was not possible because DV reasons) and its not that bad with +1 spAtk. But generally you need no other move than Thousand Arrows because it hits everything. The Def Boost lets your sub survive 2 hits on a lot neutral attacks.
When do you use it? If your opponent has no Roar or whirlwind and if the opponents bug/fighting beast is dead (the bulky one that learns ice punch). Make sure to set up enough DDs before Pheromosa and Scarf Genesect switch in and catch you without sub. But at this early meta stage most people dont know what to do so it shouldnt be that hard.
This sets are banned in afterbank OU since yesterday. Its only usable in prebank.
Here is a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480637363
At the point the opponent gave up it was an auto-win. you can see how easy it is to set up even against an +4 Aegi.
Have a nice day.
I just want to share my broken strategy before it gets banned. Its easy2use and easy2win.
Umbreon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Foul Play
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Foul Play
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Its basicly a 2 turn (3 turn at opportunity) set up. You get out Umbreon as safe as possible, press sub or Z-Celebreate depending on the situation and try to pass boost + sub. Then you just set up and sweep the opponents team. HP Fire is to get rid of bug and grass types faster, (hp flying was not possible because DV reasons) and its not that bad with +1 spAtk. But generally you need no other move than Thousand Arrows because it hits everything. The Def Boost lets your sub survive 2 hits on a lot neutral attacks.
When do you use it? If your opponent has no Roar or whirlwind and if the opponents bug/fighting beast is dead (the bulky one that learns ice punch). Make sure to set up enough DDs before Pheromosa and Scarf Genesect switch in and catch you without sub. But at this early meta stage most people dont know what to do so it shouldnt be that hard.
This sets are banned in afterbank OU since yesterday. Its only usable in prebank.
Here is a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480637363
At the point the opponent gave up it was an auto-win. you can see how easy it is to set up even against an +4 Aegi.
Have a nice day.
Outrage will not cause confusion if it ends early because it hit an immunity. I'm assuming you switched in a fairy to tank the Outrage, so Zygarde was no longer locked and could freely use Thousand Arrows.
Lol those are some annoying defensive cores, tho I have a question about the second one (Duggy+Celesteela). Why Endure Custap Duggy? Tbh I think that Custap Duggy isn't as good as banded and kinda less reliable than sash (although sash needs rocks gone), so why that set? Im just curious lol I hope you don't take this wrongI don't really know where the Toxapex ban hype comes from because it's really easy to take advantage of its 53 SpA, especially if it lacks Haze. It doesn't even 2HKO pokemon like Landorus and Alolan Marowak and most Taunt users beat it pretty easily (again, even Water weak pokemon like SpD Heatran beat it).
Instead of talking about pokemon that will probably get banned I'll post two of my favorite cores that you can still use after the quickbans
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Punch
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang / Earthquake
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Scald
- HazeAlolan Marowak is a really good pokemon at the moment, being able to beat pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Celesteela, Pheromosa, Xurkitree, and Buzzwole. The biggest problem is that many of these pokemon can either wear down Marowak (Leech Seed Celesteela for example) or have a way to get momentum (U-Turn Phero / Koko). This is a pretty big issue combined with Stealth Rock damage, which is why Alolan Marowak often fails to shine.
Something I noticed while playing some matches was that the variety of Stealth Rock users was pretty low. Landorus, Landorus-T, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Dugtrio and Alolan Marowak are the ones I faced most often. Mantine beats 4 / 6, and with support from pokemon like Tapu Bulu, it's not that difficult to keep Stealth Rocks off the field.
Type wise this is also a nice core. Marowak takes Electric- and Grass-moves really well and Mantine's immunity to Water and Ground helps a lot. The biggest threats are obviously Rock-types (can't really switch in though) and physical wallbreakers like Bisharp and SD Aegi. I use Bonemerang on Alolan Marowak because the team I'm using this core with also has a Tapu Bulu. There's also a 3x Ghost Type core (Shadow Ball Z-Conversion Porygon Z, Alolan Marowak, Aegislash) which, while its stacks weaknesses and is quiet slow, does a great job at exploiting the Ghost weakness many teams have.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
Dugtrio @ Custap Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Endure
- Stealth RockI faced this core once and got 5-0'd so I decided to build around it and it has been really successful so far. Celesteela is one of the most annoying pokemon to face, because it beats almost every pokemon that is immune to Leech Seed. Heavy Slam is really strong even without any attack investment and Flamethrower is used to get past Genesect, Ferrothorn and Skarmory. While Celesteela can annoy many Fire- and Electric-Type switchins with Leech Seed + Protect, it still risks the OHKO, so why not add Dugtrio? Dugtrio traps Heatran, Greninja, Tapu Koko, weakened Pheromosa, and a bunch of other stuff Celesteela hates. Nothing more than a pretty standard brainless Dugtrio core, but really effective nonetheless.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
The team I used it on was pretty weak to Zard-X and Kingdra (Endure is nice to waste an extra rain turn and do nice damage to Kingdra and Tapu Koko). Choice Band is definitely an option but I prefer the ability to trap Greninja, Tapu Koko and DD Charizard-X without the need for reliable hazards removal.
Confusion now has a 1/3 chance to harm the user instead of 1/2.
Also SketchUp would you mind explaining your spread for Celesteela? I'm currently using 96+ Spdef to live one Tapu Koko Tbolt and two LO Torn-T Heat Waves, so I'm interested in what else your spread gets done.
I'm curious, with the very evident power creep this gen will it shift the previous concepts of what level of power is acceptable for OU? This isn't a "ban this, ban that" comment (which as by the OP isn't allowed) - just a realisation that there is so much new power this gen that you'd have to ban away a significant proportion of the current gen to return to the gen VI power levels. Even then, with the new terrain Surges, there are a lot ways to invalidate previous play-styles (e.g. Misty Surge isn't going to make stall happy, etc.).
The point is, do people think this gen is shifting the whole paradigm of the meta in a way we haven't seen before - or might there possibly be extremely judicious bannings to return it back to "normal"? I think discussing specific bans doesn't have a place here, but I think discussing what power level to pitch the new meta at does have a little bit of a place - so much has been shaken up, particularly with the ultra beasts and guardians, that the power level has irrevocably shifted to a higher degree. It's certainly hard to pitch a meta where as many playstyles as possible are viable without sending a crap load to Uber. I guess if this is overstepping the mark on the ban talk restriction, then mods can feel free to delete the comment, but I think people do want to address the elephant in the room a little and this is not about what to ban and what to not but rather to respect something in the meta has changed and to wonder how that power shift influences the meta.
The point is, do people think this gen is shifting the whole paradigm of the meta in a way we haven't seen before - or might there possibly be extremely judicious bannings to return it back to "normal"? I think discussing specific bans doesn't have a place here, but I think discussing what power level to pitch the new meta at does have a little bit of a place - so much has been shaken up, particularly with the ultra beasts and guardians, that the power level has irrevocably shifted to a higher degree. It's certainly hard to pitch a meta where as many playstyles as possible are viable without sending a crap load to Uber. I guess if this is overstepping the mark on the ban talk restriction, then mods can feel free to delete the comment, but I think people do want to address the elephant in the room a little and this is not about what to ban and what to not but rather to respect something in the meta has changed and to wonder how that power shift influences the meta.
Atm Mantine, Scizor, Skarmory and Pelipper. If you fear tapu koko, excadrill as spinner. But idk, except very needed Hazard removal (for zard for example) a lot of them are better without defog. But who knowa what is discovered tomorrow, its still very early, you know?^^
This is a valid point.
I think first they ban the shit out of everything until you dont need Aegislash in every team just to not auto-lose. After that they fix some balancing issues and we have the strenght shift you mentioned or, what is more likely considering its smogon, they make suspects and bans until lando, tran, keldeo are as strong and viable in every team as in gen6. I had no problem with both but i would prefer the first pssibility.
I feel as if the jump in power levels you're describing actually already took place, with the introduction of mega pokemon. Sure, UBs can hold items, while megas cannot, but in general the UBs have clearly exploitable weaknesses i.e. those with huge attacking stats have terrible defensive stats. There are a couple of mons that are obvious quickbans, after the removal of which the meta will feel more balanced for sure. As far as a picture of a SuMo meta that looks like ORAS, but with a couple of additions, I feel that won't happen. Every generation, OU loses some mons, and OU gains some mons. In the lifetime of pokemon, keldeo and lando are quite young.
No way of knowing how the meta will settle at this point, but I don't think power creep this generation is anywhere near as severe as it was when megas were brought in. There was a time when 130-150 SpAtk was absurd, whereas now it's just 'good' for a special attacker. Yeah idk tbh I don't feel the creep this gen like i did in XY.
edit: however, with UBs plus normal amount of legends, there are definitely more potentially ban-worthy things this gen than every before. just in terms of raw power i don't think they're crazy OP compared to things we've already seen.
Considering that every Aegislash ever runs a non-invested -Spe nature in order to go second + maintain maximum offenses/defenses, the typical Aegislash speed is 134. Many also run minimum Speed IVs, which would put them at 103.
An Adamant Marowak with at least 45 EVs in Speed will outpace either of those options.
So was that a rhetorical question or...?
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