Feel free to start discussing the SM OU metagame here! Everything you need should be found in the datamine resource thread. There's also a new banlist, but discussion of potential bans / unbans will be tightly moderated. This thread is pretty light on rules but make no mistake moderators will make an effort to keep this thread on track. Enjoy!
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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After watching several matches, I can already tell that the Tapus are going to be the driving force behind OU, atleast for now. Psychic Terrain is huge , allowing for several mons that previously hated priority to now be able to run rampant with just a little support from Tapu Lele. None moreso than Pherosma, who literally cannot be stopped once it gets an easy revenge kill and outspeeds your silly scarfers.
And yes, the Genesect U-turn spam is going to be glorious. As will the return of the ever hateful 50/50's from Aegislash. I'm going to have fun with those while they last...
And yes, the Genesect U-turn spam is going to be glorious. As will the return of the ever hateful 50/50's from Aegislash. I'm going to have fun with those while they last...
The role of the Ultra beasts in the upcoming meta should be very interesting. While some of them like Pherosma, Kartana, and Zerkitree seemed broken on first glance, After taking a closer look, they each have issues that prevent them from just plowing through teams. Pheramosa isn't as extreme as Deoxys, and has no moves as spamable as psycho boost. Kartana has awful special defense, exploitable weaknesses, and all its moves are only middling in base power. Zerkitree has power, but everything else is pretty middling. I think the main thing that could make or break these pokemon is how effectively they can utilize beast boost.
Zygarde 50% with power construct seems fun, as it basically gives Zygarde a super sitrus berry as an ability. Should be a great set-up sweeper.
Zygarde 50% with power construct seems fun, as it basically gives Zygarde a super sitrus berry as an ability. Should be a great set-up sweeper.
In the Toxapex discussion there was a lot of question about if its solid defenses and regenerate would be enough to make up for its lack of options in terms of actually threatening opposing Pokemon with damage. Will it be a reliable staple in OU? Or set up bait? I really hope its the former.
There's no way Pheramosa is sticking around in OU. The other ones maybe, but that thing is very clearly broken as hell. Although, its presence alone would basically make Toxapex a requirement for any team sooo...
Pheresoma is absolutely whack. It pretty much kills everything and if it isn't already outpacing your whole team, after it gets a kill it certainly is thanks to Beast Boost. Aegislash can check it to an extent and so can fairy mons if they're bulky enough and you lack PJab, but it's really futile trying to counter this thing w/out one of those (mainly Aegi).
Aegi's dropping in the first place was controversial, but it's on a majority of teams and it's simply not a very competitive, welcome, or healthy presence in the metagame - it hits hard, it hard stops so many things, it has an incredibly unique defensive presence, etc. - it doesn't really have much of a place in the tier in the long haul, I reckon.
Genesect and Greninja are hard as fuck to counter, too, but they don't seem as urgent or pressing to deal with as either of the above two and they're kinda fun to tinker around with, as well. In addition, Tapu Koko is super fun and incredibly strong for the speed it has - looking for big things from it in the future.
More coming.
-outl
Aegi's dropping in the first place was controversial, but it's on a majority of teams and it's simply not a very competitive, welcome, or healthy presence in the metagame - it hits hard, it hard stops so many things, it has an incredibly unique defensive presence, etc. - it doesn't really have much of a place in the tier in the long haul, I reckon.
Genesect and Greninja are hard as fuck to counter, too, but they don't seem as urgent or pressing to deal with as either of the above two and they're kinda fun to tinker around with, as well. In addition, Tapu Koko is super fun and incredibly strong for the speed it has - looking for big things from it in the future.
More coming.
-outl
I think that Aegi will dictate the Metagame in the same way that it did on release. It's the most centralizing 'Mon right now, and with it in the Tier, I don't think we can get a fair judgment on everything else. (Also, remember what happened when people finally started to get a decent hold of Aegi. That SubToxic set arose, and made Aegi impossible to predict and build/play around.
I think it's great that Deo stayed, as to not force the Meta into automatic HO, but with wallbreakers like Hoopa-U and Mawile resurfacing, I still believe that faster teams will be more prevalent combated to the balance that was often present in ORAS.
I personally foresee Genesect and Aegi getting banned again for the exact reason they were before: unpredictability, unfair power and they generate insane momentum. (Not to mention they look like a broken fit on the resurgent Rain Teams..)
I think it's great that Deo stayed, as to not force the Meta into automatic HO, but with wallbreakers like Hoopa-U and Mawile resurfacing, I still believe that faster teams will be more prevalent combated to the balance that was often present in ORAS.
I personally foresee Genesect and Aegi getting banned again for the exact reason they were before: unpredictability, unfair power and they generate insane momentum. (Not to mention they look like a broken fit on the resurgent Rain Teams..)
Yeah IDK what comes in this year that actually makes Aegi care...
ANYWAYS we're not going to get to slower teams early but Mantine is going to be huge as long as Lando-i is in tier once we start. Toxapex stocks are off the chart, quagsire's probably not gonna be OU much this gen off of just how many other good waters there are. I expect one of our grass/ghosts to actually be a viable defensive mon his gen (leaning decidueye bcuz roost) and Shiinotic rounds out the real 'gains' stall gets via mons. Aloha-Eggsecutor looks neat too considering we have so many good waters, ice isn't an issue and electric 4x is really appreciated.
I honestly don't see a lot changing in stall's mode other than MSable should be impossible to use while Aegi exists (and fairies might keep him out longer). Expect the stall mega of choice to be Venu or ZardX, keeping no weakness to fairy and still having tools against Aegislash. But most importantly, they're the 2 best electric resist megas. Altaria fits, too... But can't take Genesect well. I think the go-to is ZardX.
Elec Resist Mega/Toxapex/Mantine/Skarmory/Elec Resist/Cleric seems like the strongest starter core. It covers double defog, lando-i, has tools for Aegi, beats Mawile (toxa SHOULD). ZardX gets genesect. Kinda dunno how you grab greninja (Toxpaex?). IDK it seems soild.
ANYWAYS we're not going to get to slower teams early but Mantine is going to be huge as long as Lando-i is in tier once we start. Toxapex stocks are off the chart, quagsire's probably not gonna be OU much this gen off of just how many other good waters there are. I expect one of our grass/ghosts to actually be a viable defensive mon his gen (leaning decidueye bcuz roost) and Shiinotic rounds out the real 'gains' stall gets via mons. Aloha-Eggsecutor looks neat too considering we have so many good waters, ice isn't an issue and electric 4x is really appreciated.
I honestly don't see a lot changing in stall's mode other than MSable should be impossible to use while Aegi exists (and fairies might keep him out longer). Expect the stall mega of choice to be Venu or ZardX, keeping no weakness to fairy and still having tools against Aegislash. But most importantly, they're the 2 best electric resist megas. Altaria fits, too... But can't take Genesect well. I think the go-to is ZardX.
Elec Resist Mega/Toxapex/Mantine/Skarmory/Elec Resist/Cleric seems like the strongest starter core. It covers double defog, lando-i, has tools for Aegi, beats Mawile (toxa SHOULD). ZardX gets genesect. Kinda dunno how you grab greninja (Toxpaex?). IDK it seems soild.
I personally feel its a lot too early to pass judgement on aegislash. At least right now, it feels necessarry to keep some of the more ridiculous things in the tier (magearna + dugtrio, phermosa, kartana (+ dugtrio), mawile, etc etc) in check and make teambuilding feel a little less impossible.
I feel like Aegislash is actually one of the more likely and plausible quick ban Pokemon because it has a very similar dynamic to last generation, except it's only a little better if anything. If you look at it, almost all of the new Pokemon are fairly vulnerable to Aegislash and it also gains the slightly buffed King's Shield (see: immune moves still trigger the -2 atk). Basically, it was banworthy for a legitimate reason last generation and that reason is now stronger than ever while Aegislash is also clearly stunting the prospective growth/progress of the tier. Aegislash just isn't worth tinkering with for very long in the tier unless we observe a drastic change in the immediate future because it is such an unhealthy presence and it stands in the way of so many things that prevent the metagame from unraveling properly to a full extent.
The fact that Aegislash stops all the Tapus + Pheromosa cold is more than a reason to use it. I can see it becoming a centralizing force once again just because of the fact that it can stop a ton of the meta, but then there's also the fact that King Shield got a HUGE buff. the fact that king shield drops attack regardless of making contact or not makes that thing that much more busted than it already was. I don't expect to see Aegislash in February.
It's going to be interesting to see the impact of the terrains. Psychic Terrain makes Alakazam and Mega Alakazam into terrifying sweepers, since they become immune to priority and do things like 2HKO Chansey with Psyshock with ease. Balance/Semi-stall will be incredibly heavily pressured.
Just use Aegislash and Greninja until they get banned.
But yeah, once they break out, Megazam gets scary. I suppose Mega Gyarados also benerifts from Psychic Terrain, and maybe DD and sweep so that's big too.
If these wack Ultra Beasts like Pheromosa, Buzzwole, and Kartana are running around, I'd be glad to have such a bulky steel/ghost type on my team. Throw in all these fairy type terrain pokemon, Aegi is gonna be huge in this early part of the meta.
Point form thoughts from playing on showdown's future server.
Yes, Aegislash is still amazing.
Genesect is decent but Pheromosa might be better.
Jangmo-o is a pretty decent dragon dancer.
Pelipper is sick.
Mega speed buff is crazy good for mega swampert among others.
Gigalith is decent.
Sub-Salac Kartana is a decent win condition if there's no priority around.
Toxapex is stupid bulky and has scald.
Bewear's ability is pretty crazy, took only 50% from a +1 Kartana's secret sword.
What moves are y'all running on Genesect? I'm finding it hard to pick 4
Yes, Aegislash is still amazing.
Genesect is decent but Pheromosa might be better.
Jangmo-o is a pretty decent dragon dancer.
Pelipper is sick.
Mega speed buff is crazy good for mega swampert among others.
Gigalith is decent.
Sub-Salac Kartana is a decent win condition if there's no priority around.
Toxapex is stupid bulky and has scald.
Bewear's ability is pretty crazy, took only 50% from a +1 Kartana's secret sword.
What moves are y'all running on Genesect? I'm finding it hard to pick 4
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Ok gonna leave some opinions on the new mons through viewing some battles on dev:
: Lol this thing is nuts. Fighting/Bug/Ice/Poison is unstoppable right now besides being walled by Aegislash, and its phenomenal speed and attacking stats make it extremely hard to switch into this monster. On top of this, Beast Boost gives it a +1 boost to its highest stat, which means Scarf Modest sets are able to get a +1 in Sp.Atk while still outspeeding the entire metagame. Ive seen a lot of players pair this with Tapu Lele to completely stop the only way of countering this thing in priority which is truly nuts. It also has U-turn for good momentum and Quiver Dance to make it more of a scary ass threat. This thing is absolutely bonkers.
: Ok I get it that Aegislash is amazing and all and is ridiculous at times but I feel people are kinda overreacting atm. It does hit incredibly hard and is able to survive most hits in Shield Forme, but its really weak to many common offensive attacks. I defintely could see it being suspected, but not really quickbanned right away as there is potential for the meta to adapt to it again.
: This thing hits so hard in Electric Terrain its nuts. With a Choice Specs, legit can 2HKO even the bulkiest of special walls. It also gets good coverage moves and momentum in U-turn. Saw many players pair it with other Electrics and it honestly works so well on Electric Spam. Very viable also cause that Speed is also really high. Feel this thing could stay in OU.
: Saw someone run ScoliPass with this and holy hell its stupid af. Why does it get Tail Glow lol. Basically invalidates the definition of a counter after one boost and also gets good coverage with Energy Ball to nuke Ground types. It pretty average without speed boosts passed to it, but becomes absolutely menacing if u get a chance to pass to it.
Also y not give Mega Kanga a chance in OU :)
Edit: Tried Guzzlord Stall in OU and it works ;)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/future-gen7ou-165
Also y not give Mega Kanga a chance in OU :)
Edit: Tried Guzzlord Stall in OU and it works ;)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/future-gen7ou-165
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But if thats the case your plan is to ban something that keeps Pheromosa in check? Something to use against what will be another centralizing force in terrain starters? Idk, letting those run rampant without there being a risk to using them because of them having a common counter seems like it is the opposite of creating a balanced meta. i say hold off on judgement and let the meta evolve
Remember, broken does not (and should not) keep broken in check, so Pheromosa would likely be banned as well very shortly after Aegi is banned
Edit: I'm an idiot.
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Psychic Terrain doesn't stop Grounded Pokemon from using Priority Moves, it protects Grounded Pokemon from taking Priority Moves.
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- King's Shield
- Shadow Sneak
Pharamosa got you down? Getting owned by specs Tapu Lele? Don't worry any longer folks, your boy Aegislash has you covered. Pursuit actually does over 40% to Pharamosa, making it a lot easier to deal with and wearing it down a ton in the long run. Iron Head is also really nice since it lets u tank a hit and OHKO all of the Guardian deities. Obviously Shadow ball sets are still dumb to switch into, but this is an interesting set nevertheless.
Well to contribute something that's not useless, I've been very impressed by Alolan Marowak and how well it deals with some of the most prominent threats in the meta, like Xurkitree, Pheromosa, and Kartana. That typing with Lightningrod is so damn good, and it hits incredibly hard with Thick Club. It may be overshadowed by Aegislash in the current meta, but I believe its resistance to Fire and immunity to Electric allow it to check certain threats better, and if Aegislash leaves it'll really have a chance to shine.
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