Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Icrosonze]

Z-Flash, Z-Smokescreen, Z-Sand Attack:
+1 Evasion (User), -1 Accuracy (Target)

I kind of wonder how these are going to be handled, and whether they'll be left alone or Complex Banned almost immediately.

It does take your only Z-Crystal to run them, when you could be using something like Z-Parting Shot. Half of the effect also leaves immediately as your opponent switches. Phazing and Defog removes the boost from the user, and they can't get it back because it's a one time use Z-Crystal effect.

But on the turn after you use it (or the turn if you're faster) your opponent would have a 60% chance to hit you with a 100% accuracy move. Even after switching, they would only have a 75% chance to hit you, and if you Sand Attack on the switch it's right back down to 60%.

I guess it boils down to how many stages of accuracy reduction are allowed before it becomes uncompetitive.

Z-Detect:
Protects the User from moves that Target it. +1 Evasion (User)

I wonder the same about this too, not because +1 Evasion is inherently broken (it might be), but because Detect (or it's cousin) is a move that's actually on Pokemon regularly. A Detect/Sub user that avoids 1/4th of your hits sounds more than just annoying. They do give up Lefties for that though, and it is only one boost that's still susceptible to Phazing and Defog.

 

[Miyami~~]

I've been messing around with Mimikyu and unfortunately, it isn't particularly amazing. Disguise is an insane ability, and pretty much garuauntees a free switch onto anything or a free SD if you don't switch in on an attack, but it needs SD to be reasonably strong and SD + Shadow Sneak isn't particularly strong either. +2 Play Rough melts stuff, so that's cool, but it's either getting outsped and forced to use weak shadow sneak or taking a hit and attempting to kill it back. Unfortunately, it doesn't have infinite bulk and can't beat Steel types. Unfortunately, I don't think its quite good enough to stay OU.

Pheromosa is broken, ban it

 

[meloetta]

I been trying to get my team together before the game comes out in the states so far I've got

Mimikyu ,fini,sivally

What do I need to add to this team i need a 2nd win condition Mon, a wall and a physical sweeper(maybe jangmo)
I need some bulk on this team I was told to put tangrowth and bronzing on team to counter the tapu's.w hat do think I should do.

 

[ManOfMany]

Rest-Talk Guzzlord with Knock Off + Dragon Tail is amazing

also Tapu Koko is surprisingly good, hits a lot harder than you would expect cause of the Electric Terrain and the typing is really useful. I have a feeling it will not only stay OU, it will be a team staple.

 

[HC]

Guzzlord just straight up doesn't die, that thing's a monster. Thankfully we got given a ton of fairies who can actually deal with the thing; but Dark/Dragon is actually a really nice defensive typing, as seen by Hydreigon's utility in UU

 

[Tokyo Tom]

Tapu Fini is so thicc GHHHHH

I think it has a lot of potential running a CM set. Its good set of resistances (allowing it to check Pheromosa, among other things) combined with its ability to prevent status for 5 turns gives it a bunch of set-up opportunities. It can easily set up on passive 'Mons with either SubCM or TauntCM. While it may not fare too well against the all-out HO teams right now, I think it has some sneaky value as a balance/stall-breaker on bulkier teams that mask its weaknesses and benefit from its ability.

 

[Psychic Whip]

I think that Aegislash's properties to deal with some of the newer threats like Pheromosa, Lele, and Kartana is a very welcomed necessity in OU. Even so, the main argument against Aegilash, its ability to turn games into 50/50 guesses, still remains.
Aegilash has conserved itself as quite a hard pokemon to play against, even after X&Y and ORAS.
I think a suspect could be a good idea since I'm not sure of how wage Aegislash's attributes in OU in any other form or way, unless the council decides to take a decision by themselves. If Aegis goes, Pheromosa is certain to follow it.

 

[HC]

The issue is that once again, Aegislash is so so so centralising; already, 90% of teams I've seen are using it. And while that'll probably decrease once the re-novelty of having it in the tier, it's hard to imagine a team outside of HO which would be better without Aegis. Atm, it seems like the game revolves around 'who can get rid of the opposing Aegislash first', that way Pheromosa/Kartana can sweep and win. It's a case of broken checking broken imo, even with Hoopa-U in the tier (who I also thing is still broken with that outrageous Specs set).

 

[Ash Borer]

Rest-Talk Guzzlord with Knock Off + Dragon Tail is amazing

also Tapu Koko is surprisingly good, hits a lot harder than you would expect cause of the Electric Terrain and the typing is really useful. I have a feeling it will not only stay OU, it will be a team staple.

Im pretty sure Guzzlord doesnt learn Knock Off

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Torkoal is an absolute god send for Sun teams. Everyone is gushing about Pelipper, and rightfully so, but Torkoal might let Sun teams make a return to OU. Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin are nice and all, but its real selling point is Yawn, which lets Cholorphyll Sweepers get an opportunity to switch in. On top of that is has a lot of physical bulk, and just ever so slightly better offenses than Ninetales. The non-existent special bulk is annoying though, but it really has more than enough to function in OU.

Between that, and Talonflame getting nerfed hard, Sun might make a resurgence this gen.

 

[mertyville]

Thoughts on Darkrai nerf? Can't we consider a possible suspect of that thing?

 

[Martin]

IDK I still think sun'll be a gimmick and that it'll reach a point where there is, like, 1 viable build for it which is niche at best. That said, my expectation is that the build will be something like Torkoal+Mega Diancie+Venusaur+Dugtrio+Volcarona+filler

I expect that this meta is gonna be tapus+aegi+rain probably with regards to centralising forces. Mantine is a pretty good stop to the latter, and I don't expect the tapus to last long just personally. Aegislash is still extremely centralising again so I'm not looking forward to that.

Free Wobbuffet

Thoughts on Darkrai nerf? Can't we consider a possible suspect of that thing?

No lol this thing's still insanely busted

 

[Morsel]

I can't wait for Bewear, it's so fat and has an incredible movepool. The only thing holding it back is a poor defensive typing.

I'll get more into this and expand this post when I'm not playing S/M

 

[Miyami~~]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/future-gen7ou-636
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/future-gen7ou-515

A good friend of mine is tearing it up with a Pyukumuku team. While I don't thing it's overly amazing, Pyukumuku has the bulk to just sit there and do nothing while Duggy removes steels that would otherwise annoy the hell out of it because they can't be poisoned.

 

[reyscarface]

I cant see Greninja being quickbanned, this new gen gave it actual hard counters in Tapu Fini and Toxapex, they legit stop it cold as hell. That plus the insane speed creep on this gen with some of the mons (Tapu Koko, UBs, etc) make it much less effective at what its supposed to be doing. And if Greninja is not as effective, Ash Greninja is even weaker.

The Tapus are all great in their own right, also whoever said Aegislash counters them all is wrong, Tapu Lele 2HKOs max HP Aegislash with Shadow Ball after SR. Tapu Koko can beat non LO Aegislash too with a highly specialized CM Roost set, as after 1 CM, Shadow Ball is not doing enough damage to 2HKO it after Recover and if it CMs again it just Roosts up and gets free boosts.

The metagame revolves around Pheromosa + Aegislash core right now, almost every team has this duo for obvious reasons. Aegislash 100% counters Pheromosa since it cant afford to run HP Fire. Even if Aegislash sits there using Splash, Pheromosa cant kill Aegislash at all. But she destroys teams on her own right that dont have Aegislash, Mantine, Mega Venusaur (shaky because Uturn hurts). The thing about Aegislash is that if (more like when, too many people want it gone already) it gets banned, theres gonna be about 10 things that become instantly OP. This would be fine if you remove them immediately, but if we go with the quickban Aegi and test all the others approach, it could get ridiculous very fast.

All in all very fun metagame, lots of fun Pokemon to try out.

 

[New World Order]

Aegislash is a necessary presence right now on pretty much every team due to all the new threats popping up, many of which are clearly broken. It's only the first few days so we need something like this to ease teambuilding. By the time we have everything up and running smoothly though, this thing can leave the tier whenever it wants.

On a more pleasant note, I've had some decent success with Mega Gyarados. Getting ran over by Pheromosa is never fun, but it's one of the better Aegislash answers out there atm.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think it might have been too much to expect some of the Gen VI Ubers to suddenly fit in the Gen VII metagame. They're all problematic for different reasons, and folks immediately know how abuse them now. Like, Aegislash is kind of keeping a bunch of things in check, but it's also incredibly ridiculous on its own, and once it goes a bunch of Pokemon are going to follow it. Genesect just doesn't work in the Singles OU format since Download, U-turn and amazing coverage just completely push it over the edge. Pheromosa's basically just a repackaged Deoxys, and once Aegislash goes, it'll dominate. Greninja's probably the only gen VI Uber that has a real shot of staying in OU. It has real counters now and checking it is a lot easier now that Megas can instantly access their Speed.

 

[Kakimori]

I wish every second post in this thread would stop whining about Aegislash already and actually give the meta a chance to shake out.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing whether Toxapex will be here to stay, or if it'll fade over time due to essentially being Taunt bait. Also Golisopod, which has the capability to be a very solid mid-tier drain tank/revenge killer on some teams.

 

[Psychic Whip]

I cant see Greninja being quickbanned, this new gen gave it actual hard counters in Tapu Fini and Toxapex, they legit stop it cold as hell. That plus the insane speed creep on this gen with some of the mons (Tapu Koko, UBs, etc) make it much less effective at what its supposed to be doing. And if Greninja is not as effective, Ash Greninja is even weaker.

The Tapus are all great in their own right, also whoever said Aegislash counters them all is wrong, Tapu Lele 2HKOs max HP Aegislash with Shadow Ball after SR. Tapu Koko can beat non LO Aegislash too with a highly specialized CM Roost set, as after 1 CM, Shadow Ball is not doing enough damage to 2HKO it after Recover and if it CMs again it just Roosts up and gets free boosts.

The metagame revolves around Pheromosa + Aegislash core right now, almost every team has this duo for obvious reasons. Aegislash 100% counters Pheromosa since it cant afford to run HP Fire. Even if Aegislash sits there using Splash, Pheromosa cant kill Aegislash at all. But she destroys teams on her own right that dont have Aegislash, Mantine, Mega Venusaur (shaky because Uturn hurts). The thing about Aegislash is that if (more like when, too many people want it gone already) it gets banned, theres gonna be about 10 things that become instantly OP. This would be fine if you remove them immediately, but if we go with the quickban Aegi and test all the others approach, it could get ridiculous very fast.

All in all very fun metagame, lots of fun Pokemon to try out.

Doesn't Tapu Fini get 2HKO'd by Greninja's Gunk shot?

 

[lordkira]

I think it might have been too much to expect some of the Gen VI Ubers to suddenly fit in the Gen VII metagame. They're all problematic for different reasons, and folks immediately know how abuse them now. Like, Aegislash is kind of keeping a bunch of things in check, but it's also incredibly ridiculous on its own, and once it goes a bunch of Pokemon are going to follow it. Genesect just doesn't work in the Singles OU format since Download, U-turn and amazing coverage just completely push it over the edge. Pheromosa's basically just a repackaged Deoxys, and once Aegislash goes, it'll dominate. Greninja's probably the only gen VI Uber that has a real shot of staying in OU. It has real counters now and checking it is a lot easier now that Megas can instantly access their Speed.

Agreed. I was really hoping for things like Mega Salamence (with aerilate nerf...thought it'd be more significant), Darkrai, Aegislash, Mega Kang would come down to OU. I don't think any of them will. But then again...I'm not the most experienced and skilled player to be able to fully make any noteworthy competitive judgements anyways.

Quick question: Has anyone tried Bewear?

 

[erisia]

I know there's probably already been a lot of internal discussion on this, but between the Parental Bond nerf, the Sucker Punch nerf, and Psychic Terrain, and Aegislash, is there any chance of Mega Kangaskhan being tested in OU again? Seems like it would be a welcome addition for helping to check things like Pheromosa with Fake Out. I guess 200 HP Seismic Toss could still be an issue.

 

[termi]

I know there's probably already been a lot of internal discussion on this, but between the Parental Bond nerf, the Sucker Punch nerf, and Psychic Terrain, and Aegislash, is there any chance of Mega Kangaskhan being tested in OU again? Seems like it would be a welcome addition for helping to check things like Pheromosa with Fake Out. I guess 200 HP Seismic Toss could still be an issue.

what sucker punch nerf

 

[PK Gaming]

Thank God that Tapu Koko has 95 SpA instead of 115 like we all wanted. It already hits incredibly hard as is, I can't even imagine it with more juice.

what sucker punch nerf

It has 70 base power now.

 

[Ash Borer]

Thoughts on Darkrai nerf? Can't we consider a possible suspect of that thing?

It's most likely still too strong. Dark Pulse / Knock Off / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb is pretty much impossible to switch into, and does exceptionally well against offense thanks to its speed.

 

[erisia]

It's most likely still too strong. Dark Pulse / Knock Off / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb is pretty much impossible to switch into, and does exceptionally well against offense thanks to its speed.

Also Hypnosis is still a thing. Probably not great but with Bad Dreams it's probably still good enough to justify running.